Where are all the Chavistas? Huh? Where?


#41

Chile? More like 60 thousand. Mostly tortured, killed.

Please remember it still took them 30 years to get where they are now…still without a safety net and poor being terribly poor.

Cubans were the first ones fleeing. Must count the ones dead at sea. 150 k does not even begin…


#42

Pinochet let a lot off lightly, including their current president Bachelet.

More importantly, how many lives did he save? He brought hundreds of thousands out of poverty. Had this not happened and the social indicators rose – lots and lots of death. He was the saviour of Chile contrary to the opinions of the left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmZGuPfGNrY


#43

I brought up home gardening as an example (not a solution), because if we’re going to talk about abolition of private property/industry, we should be clear about what that means. It’s either abolished or not abolished.

The Khmer Rouge would have laughed Chavez out of the room (and then dealt with him). The AJ article is further evidence of this.

Price controls per se are statist/interventionist but not necessarily socialist. How many countries don’t have any price controls at all? How far have these controls gone in Venezuela?

When you have a pattern of nationalization and redistribution, you can use that as evidence to support definition 1, but you need to come up with something much more solid if you want to use Venezuela (convincingly) as an example of Why We Should Scream In Terror At The Slightest Hint Of Socialist Tendencies.


#44

Challenge. I would like to see the 60,000 killed from a source, please.

From the start of the new military government harsh measures were implemented.[10] During the period of Pinochet’s rule, various investigations have identified the murder of 1,200 to 3,200 people with up to 80,000 people forcibly interned and as many as 30,000 tortured.[11][12][13] According to the Chilean government, the official number of deaths and forced disappearances stands at 3,095.

Wikipedia.

Back to you. Again, we are talking “killed.”


#45

You are quoting Wiki? Ayioo. Come on man, at least something like CIA factbook…

Khremer against Chavistas. Yep, racial genocide in the name of oh, yes, what you guys understand as socialism. What is next, Sudan?

In other news today there is a historic vote going on. The people of Venezuela, both in diaspora and countryside, are voting to express their opposition to legalized dictatorship for life. There will be backlash. There will be more dead. Yet, a dignified, rational solution is still the hope of many. Maybe the glorious leaders will take their money and leave the country alone. But then it will descend into worse chaos.

To explain so that certain people will understand, a la Cersei in Game of Thrones, the government armed the thugs and criminals, which in bands strike both specific political targets and others just for riches or fun. But if the Chavistas are removed, when there is no government, even if the military side with the people, there will be blood on the streets as these gangs wrestle for control of the favelas and other yummy . So getting rid of the Chavistas is one problem. Making the country reasonably manageable is another. And then there is the current opposition, not exactly looking for the best interests of anyone but themselves and in turn manipulated by the elite and foreign interests.

However, as long as there is life, in hope, the struggle will continue…


#46

GREAT! Let’s see your site and its “figures.” I stand by the ones listed above.


#47

You go ahead and fix Wikipedia. It is like looking for the number of dead in the Panama invasion.

If I presented my boss anything from only Wikipedia, I’d be hanged. I do not think you do that at work, do you?


#48

Again, Icon, you disagree then pony up a link or some numbers to counter it. I think we know why you haven’t. It’s okay to be wrong; I am sure that you have heard this many times from many different people before. But do you learn? hmmmmm maybe not much…


#49

Which WP article is that? The current version of


does not contain the text you quoted.

Some numbers can be found here.


#50

You can’t compare China with Taiwan because of China’s population. China will literally change the world physically if they reach Taiwan’s living standards for everybody in China because the globes resources are not infinite.

I remember reading about if everybody in India started using air conditioning that we’d be fecked!
Nominal numbers matter .


#51

There is a stadium in Chile named after a famous composer, who was grabbed and tortured along with thousands of other people. After four days, they riddled his body with machine guns and hoisted his body up in the air, dropping him like a sack of potatoes in the middle of the stadium that now carries his name. The stadium was filled with former Allende supporters, who were also tortured and disposed of eventually. Now, the stadium is very big, and if we count the people killed there only, then we will have more than a thousand.

So I would quote human rights organizations, and you would say they are all leftists, I would quote local papers, and you will say they are unreliable. And we have been down this road before. There is no point.

Seriously, you wanna bring Operacion condor here? On the 30th anniversary of the end of martial law in Taiwan?

That attitude of discrediting “lkeftists” and demonizing the socialists has teh problem that it makes them stronger, it legitimizes the fight. In case you are not watching the news, the Constituyente in Venezuela is going on. Most candidates for legislators that are voting are illiterate. The Venezuelan elite is making fun of them. That si not helping. The system is going kit and kaboole to hell and worse. Taking a stand of superiority based on not so smart attitudes makes losers of the opposition. And that is why there is such a spread of thsi ideologies. Malaigning the dead has not erased the fact that they were killed unjustly. Trying to erase the facts or distort them does not remove them from collective memory. The dead keep on speaking and the bitterness from despair explodes into this. That is why starving people still support the regime.


#52

A few thousand is a drop in the bucket compared to the death toll of a Communist Chile. I think desperate times call for desperate measures.

Taiwan was certainly foolish and shorted sighted to legalise communist organisations in 2009. The fight against communism is still very real.


#53

Which stadium btw? There’s “Estadio Nacional Julio Martínez Prádanos” where a lot of people were kept prisoner, but that was named after a sports commentator who died of prostate cancer in 2008.

Nm, sorry I found it. You’re referring to Victor Jara.

After visits to Cuba and the Soviet Union in the early 1960s, Jara had joined the Communist Party.


#54

I am just trying to understand why the lives of 2,000 victims is worthy of such notice and condemnation while 150,000 in Cuba needs to be “understood” and “balanced” against the “amazing health care and education” that the country gives to paying tourists.


#55

This is why extraterrestrial beings do not talk to us…

All lives matter.


#56

Hundreds of thousands of lives don`t seem to matter in Cuba where the government lined up people and killed them to a much greater degree. But hey, they have great medicine right and boatloads of dumb Canadian tourists holidaying. Even the Christian Democrats supported Pinochet in 73. They knew the country was descending into civil war. At a minimal loss of life, Pinochet saved Chile and made it the only developed country in South America. He saved the country – end of story.


#57

I also challenge the assertion the CIA was directly involved. While the CIA did try to change the outcome in 1970, it had been completely Unsuccessful in 1973 and internal memos said it was looking to the 1976 election. This information was made possible by recently declassified cables. Thus, as everywhere including in Iran, the revolution was 98% homegrown. And if US support for one side is to be criticized, why not the Soviet and Cuban involvement in Chile AND the Soviet involvement in Iran between 1941 and 1953?


#58

Icons right that the leftist govts in SA come didn’t come from a vaccum. The US and other foreign powers didn’t help in their background battle for influence in the region.

Venuezuala is now going down its own rabbit hole probably it’s very fortunate that more blood has not been.spilt there.


#59

Just wondering, are you talking about Iran in the 70’s or in the 50’s?


#60

Of course 1953. Hence “between 1941 and 1953.”

Contrast the supposed US “efforts” in Chile in 1970 and 1973 or in Iran in 1953 with say Soviet efforts in Czechoslavakia in 1948, Poland in 1946, Hungary in 1956, East Germany in 1953… I think that you will see where I am going with this. Of course, one could also examine the statements, preparations, arms shipments to Allende to see where they were from and what public statements were made about how they were to be used, but… no one every seems to be interested in that do they? It does not fit with the virtual signaling at U.S. and European universities.