Who has the right to formally declare Taiwan as a new independent nation?


#21

[quote=“schwarzwald”]
Didn’t DPP agree to these amendments. They were made in cooperation between KMT and DPP, as far as I remember.[/quote]

KMT and DPP pushed to have a special national assembly called to amend the constitution. The other party were opposed mainly because the main goal of that amendment was to reduce LY seats as well as abolish national assembly all together.

However, once the special national assembly was called, the KMT and DDP had difference of opinion on other things such as the referendum and future amendments.


#22

I believe that, after a referendum, an agreement with China would solve this question and create a new independent state to the world.


#23

[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“schwarzwald”]
Didn’t DPP agree to these amendments. They were made in cooperation between KMT and DPP, as far as I remember.[/quote]

KMT and DPP pushed to have a special national assembly called to amend the constitution. The other party were opposed mainly because the main goal of that amendments was to reduce LY seats as well as abolish national assembly all together.

However, once the special national assembly was called, the KMT and DDP had difference of opinion on other things such as the referendum and future amendments.[/quote]

Oh yes that was it, thanks.


#24

[quote=“Gonzalez”]I believe that, after a referendum, an agreement with China would solve this question and create a new independent state to the world.
[/quote]

I think you have that the wrong way round, Hawaii can gain statehood, so long as USA gives its blessing, Catalonia can too if Spain will agree, Scotland will get to choose independence as long as the UK is ok with the vote. Taiwan I believe needs to enter into an agreement with China before they will entertain the idea of an independent Taiwan. If Taiwan goes it alone, it means war.


#25

The US doesn’t have a very tolerant record when it comes to seccession.


#26

Not really. Taiwan declaring “independence” doesn’t mean independence from the PRC, but rather independence from the ROC. China has as much to do with Taiwanese independence as North Korea has with South Korean independence – nothing except threat of force. It’s a totally different situation from Hawaii and Catalonia.


#27

I point you to look at the Philippines.


#28

I point you to look at the Philippines.[/quote]

The Philippines was never a State. Puerto Rico could be independent if they voted for it, however, they too are not a State. “You check in, but, you don’t check out.”


#29

[quote=“Mick”][quote=“Gonzalez”]I believe that, after a referendum, an agreement with China would solve this question and create a new independent state to the world.
[/quote]

I think you have that the wrong way round, Hawaii can gain statehood, so long as USA gives its blessing, Catalonia can too if Spain will agree, Scotland will get to choose independence as long as the UK is ok with the vote. Taiwan I believe needs to enter into an agreement with China before they will entertain the idea of an independent Taiwan. If Taiwan goes it alone, it means war.[/quote]

There are nutballs in Hawaii who want Hawaii to exit the United States and return to being an independent country again. They believe(some what correctly) that the United States forced an annexation of Hawaii. However, the United States is like a mafia family. Once you’re in, there is no getting out. The United States constitution provides no mechanism for a state to leave. You wanna leave? Look at what happened to the South during the Civil War. :slight_smile:

By the way, in case Taiwan somehow gets independence, either peacefully or via spilled blood, they should really change their name to something else. The majority of the average world population apparently can’t tell the different between Taiwan and Thailand. I’ve personally conducted a mini survey with about 120 friends/co-workers on my contact list. (we are all in major U.S. cities) Only 29 were able to correct identify the difference between Taiwan and Thailand. The rest all thought that Taiwan and Thailand are the same thing. Worse yet, most of them live in the L.A. area. :bravo: (or that Taiwanese people are the people of Thailand… or Thai people are living in Taiwan) Solution, just call itself Formosa. Don’t think anybody can make a mistake with that old name?


#30

I think independence would have to be decided by nationwide referendum.


#31

“What’s that, you said you’re from Hermosa Beach?”

Any name will have this problem. But Macedonians (from the country of that name) don’t worry about getting confused for Macedonia, Greece, and Romanians aren’t worried about people thinking they’re from Rome. If Taiwan were, you know, a real country, it would have a greater presence on the world stage. Right now it’s that quiet kid in class who doesn’t take part in any clubs and never talks, so everyone forgets its name and even its very existence.

The name Taiwan has the benefit of being (originally) a native aboriginal term, whereas Formosa is a term coined by the Portuguese.


#32

That’s the only way, self-determination under UN charter.
[/quote]
If self-determination can make Taiwan “formally independent”, then Taiwan has already achieved the goal. Every single election held since 1996 is an act of self-determination.

That sort of explains why China was so angry back then, as a democratic election is always an absolute indication of a nation’s sovereignty.


#33

That’s the only way, self-determination under UN charter.
[/quote]
If self-determination can make Taiwan “formally independent”, then Taiwan has already achieved the goal. Every single election held since 1996 is an act of self-determination.[/quote]

:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:


#34

That’s the only way, self-determination under UN charter.
[/quote]
If self-determination can make Taiwan “formally independent”, then Taiwan has already achieved the goal. Every single election held since 1996 is an act of self-determination.

That sort of explains why China was so angry back then, as a democratic election is always an absolute indication of a nation’s sovereignty.[/quote]

If the CCP accept that interpretation, then they
should probably launch an immediate invasion of
Taiwan the day after tomorrow, no? otherwise
they end up no better than Kim Jong-Un of DPRK.
(all talk and no action)

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


#35

[quote=“Vilnius”]Who has the right to formally declare Taiwan as a new independent nation?

I’m not asking about who is insane enough to do it or the consequences of such actions. That’s been discussed to death. :slight_smile:

What I mean is who has the ultimate legal authority to do something like that? The president? Or the members of the legislative yuan? Or the people, via a binding referendum.

Come to think of it, if more than 90% of all registered voters in Taiwan vote in favor of creating a new nation and ditch the Republic of China name, what can happen?[/quote]

I think we should ask Mayor Ko to deal with the politics.

For now, let’s just keep it this way.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


#36

Canada did not declare independence, yet they’re independent and the world accept it as such. There is no need for a declaration when facts on the ground are being created and when legal documents are well prepared.

The exact process is what Taiwan will go through now. The trend is that that greater political powers will be in the hands of regional mayors. Taiwan is in the middle of reconfiguring into several Metropolitan States. They will then organize into a Federal Government that operate on top of the roc institution.

Gradually the roc institution will phase out.

Strictly speaking, Taiwan’s independence is a matter of independence from Japan, because that was how Korea got its independence (for the 2nd time. The 1st time they got it from China in 1895). The 2a and 2b clauses of SFPT were identical except the part where in 2a Japan “recognizing the independence of Korea…”


#37

So you keep saying. Where is the evidence of this process?


#38

So you keep saying. Where is the evidence of this process?[/quote]
I thought I went over this with you before.

A six-state configuration is not a novelty. In the Japanese era, the entire island was unified for the first time in Formosa history. Geographical considerations eventually resulted in 5+2 provinces : Taihoku, Shinjuku, Taichū, Tainan, and Takao, and the two Eastern regions: Karen Port and Taitō.

In the Chen administration, Vice president Annette Lü has talked about a 6-state configuration, and CSB himself started a conversation of a partnership relationship with the Aboriginal Nations. I have talked to some activists to push toward a Treaty-based relationship instead of a “granted autonomy” that would imply the Aboriginals are subordinate to the roc institution. Long-term political stability (and I mean really long term) is contingent upon the western part of Taiwan reconciles with the Takasago Aboriginals, restoring the the political status of the Takasago to its rightful place.

Former president LTH many times in his speeches talked about a 6-state configuration.

Current Taipei Major Ko himself takes it even further to a 3-state. But I think it’s too extreme.

Facts are, the mayors are getting more powerful than ever before. Notably Taipei, Tainan, and Kaohsiung. It it doesn’t mean anything to you, then you’re just not sensitive enough. Plus it’s not just Taiwan. Urbanization makes it this way, globally.

KMT administration itself merged Kahosung, Tainan, and Taichung.

Former DPP presidential candidate Frank Hsieh in 2008 did plan for 5-6 states configuration, each being a size and population roughly equal to a Singapore.

Single-member district is one critical step toward confederacy. But then, democracy itself is confederacy, fundamentally speaking. There is no turning back.

Because of the distributive nature of confederacy, it is extremely difficult for China to annex politically all of Formosa at once.

Metropolitan-level diplomacy will replace traditional useless roc-MOFA. (I’m sure you’re aware of it already)

During the 2014 election, there was a minor news that Tsai and Ko had a pact, that Ko would attend DPP’s inter-city forum. You don’t have to believe that the forum mean anything. But in the forum is the mayors can set their own agenda. No you don’t need ROC’s approval for such a forum.


#39

Welcome to sofun’s magic wonderland.

Metropolitan states? A 6-member confederacy on an island half the size of West Virginia? You really come up with some whoppers…


#40

[quote=“Taiwanguy”]Welcome to sofun’s magic wonderland.

Metropolitan states? A 6-member confederacy on an island half the size of West Virginia? You really come up with some whoppers…[/quote]
Yeah I thought that’s about the best you could ever do.