I have provided you with a study on custody outcomes in Taiwan published in a leading, peer-reviewed family law journal. What more can I do? Your experiences are not invalid, but surely not representative. The main issue appears to be foreign nationality or inability to communicate in Chinese. That is something I would definitely agree with - not with gender as a factor however!
One way to start is using the search function of Forumosa or Google.A few simple queries for “foreigners open company Taiwan” or “foreigners real estate Taiwan” already produces some good results.
As for affordable legal advice, lawyers are equally expensive for foreigners and locals. The Legal Aid Foundation, several county and city offices, as well as a number of legislators and city councilors offer free legal advice. The Legal Aid Foundation also offers free court representation in many cases, usually requiring a low-income household certificate obtainable from the local Household Registration Office. Foreigners can also procure this document.
Obviously it all comes down to Chinese ability. I can sympathize with someone who has just arrived or stayed for just some years. But I cannot feel bad for someone who has resided in Taiwan for 5, 10, or even 20 years and cannot get himself (or herself) to a level of Chinese proficiency to manage such affairs. Particularly when we are talking about people on APRC or those who even demand dual nationality.
Foreigner involved. Again: I do believe Taiwan courts have a general bias against foreign spouses. But that bias exists irrespective of gender.
All of that for sure, but I would add that this repeatedly submitted misapprehension is also gravely insulting to a majority of foreign-born residents and their spouses, and egregiously misleading for anyone actually seeking factual advice here.
Once again, well said.
Anyone who is still operating under this outdated model, whether through ignorance or laziness, deserves pretty much whatever they get.
Uhhhhh, yeah, it sure was.
As brother @hsinhai78 says, legal systems, they have an annoying habit of doing that, weighing heavily against people who break the law
I’m usually quite liking your posts, but, I cannot agree here. I think taiwanese government sites are foreigner friendly, maybe more than many of western countries, though what I know is US’s only. They put a lot of information in English, and I guess many foreigners coming from western countries are supposed to be capable to reach those information with their college degrees. They come to a country whose language is Mandarin. Why expect they can do everything in English.
I don’t say there is no need of more effort for better information to foreigners, especially to those who come as blue collar workers and SEA spouses on their rights, but those who come here as white collar workers, business owners, or students should do some of their homework by themselves.
The story of BiggusDickus doesn’t make me feel much sympathy for the woman. What was a problem in the story is an affair rather than gender.
I will review those materials carefully -they are in English, that is a filter- and check with te numbers I have from DGBAS and local woman agencies. Thank you again for the link. I would still like to know if those were all in ROC marriages, and I bet most kids awarded to the mother were girls.
My problem is that you are blaming the victims. It is not laziness, it is crappy circunstances. How can you learn Chinese when the government sponsored classes require you bring your spouse? All he has to do is say he has no time and you are tied dependent on them. Or if your local spouse is not responsible and you are working 2 or 3 jobs to keep the house afloat, how can you have time to learn Chinese up to that level? Heck, in our office we are given all Mandarin contracts and we are translators, we do not understand legalese. It is a very high demand and we have no unions, no legal protections.
I have a friend whose husband brought her and the family here because his mom was sick. Mom is now well, the marriage is not. He just tells her to leave, but laughs as he states she can’t take the kids with her. His health is frail, his family hostile to her and the kids, not too good to him -inheritance woes. He depends on his family for work, she has her own business. What can be done there?
Another pal just got married, a guy. he’s got a business. Where can he find help to protect himself and insure his interests? All government agencies he goes to say no, bring your wife, put it under your wife. Can’t open account without wife. If the banks are wrong, what can we show them to prove that? What can we do when they say: it is our policy?
The information from NIA, for example, is at least 2 years old. The Engloish, from a translators’ point of view as well as most common users, is misleading. The information out there pertinent to visas and studie is crucial, must be clear and detailed. Heck, Study in Taiwan used to be down more than up.
Biggest problem is the info given abroad by ROC offices is different when you come here.
It is easy to blame women in divorce. I know many whose husbands make their lives a living hell. They live under the same roof barely tolerating each other. Then he says: oh, I know you have needs, you can find someone out there, I don’t mind. And the trap closes down.
And I know many wife’s that do the same to their husbands. Perhaps your perception is a little bit biased and I’m senseing here. All our perceptions are a also going to biased. But sometimes we only see what we want to see.
Pure speculation. Read the paper, It’s written by a Taiwanese scholar, published in a peer-reviewed reputable law journal and invalidates most of what you claimed in this thread.
Yeah, life is pretty tough. I wonder how anyone can survive living in Taiwan as a foreign spouse! Take the example of Lin Li-chan (林麗蟬), who was practically sold to Taiwan as a young bride and could not speak any Chinese and had to work in a factory. Eventually she managed to graduate from graduate school and is a legislator now. Taiwan is full of successful foreign spouses who made it despite numerous hardships both due to their own circumstances and the overall circumstances of Taiwan.
Nobody forced you to live in a country where Chinese is the official language. It’s simple as that. Even with a proper translation, the sole authoritative version will still be the Chinese original. You may take any work contract to one of the many avenues of free legal advice I have mentioned in one of my previous posts and ask for an ad-hoc consultation. You won’t get an analysis of every clause, but they should let you know if there is anything fishy. If you feel like you need an analysis, well then go to a lawyer and pay around 5,000-15,000 NT$ for a detailed analysis in English. But again, you chose to immigrate to a Chinese speaking country. Nobody forced you.
You have the same legal protections as local employees. Overall, these protections are quite OK for East Asia. Real unions in the Western sense are generally not a big thing in Taiwan. But that affects Taiwanese and foreigners alike.
Yeah, particularly when assuming the same scenario with reversed genders: husband cheats and loses the kids, the house, and a lot of money in the divorce. Women and white knights would be cheering and calling it justice served!
Indeed, it is unfortunately mutual, it si just taht we were talking about teh cases of women straying in particular, not guys straying. Well, I know many a foreign husband whose wives also make live harder than it should. It has to do with power imbalance. When you have the power absolute, you tend to abuse. It takes a while for the submissive to acknowledge they have the power to say no, only that in this case the cost of freedom is way too high.
Thank you for ackowledging that life here as a foreign spouse is hard. In the ol country, we have open borders policy, and the Taiwanese comunity was in the 20 thousands when I left. They were mostly tight and were able to have support, both from our gummit and the community. Heck, they had a great buxiban for nationality tests. And a fierce competition with the Cantonese community for the new year’s Dragon Dance parade.
I chose to migrate here and as far as my soon must change eyeglasses tell me, the labor law says that in the case of foreigners, a translated version must be presented. Otherwise, my signature is not valid. That this is even falunted by the gummit tells me that the rule of law is flaky, but the letter is there.
I wonder what resources are available to foreign spouses before they come to Taiwan. Are they told division of properties is not 50-50 like in some of our countries, for exmaple? Or custody details? Taxes? heck, clear on ARC procedures. That is the gummit’s fault.
Even in my own country -heck, especially where I come from- a contract in legalese is for the experts to understand and the layman to doubt.
But yes, sucks to be a worker here. No argument there.
EDIT:
got a pal with Oxford account, will have him dl teh whole bit. seems a buit weird to say socially women are preferred, and yes, alimony is yet a weird alien concept here.
@Icon one thing I want to add is marriage as a contract by a state sanctioned institution is not forced or a requirement of anything. It’s a willful contract both parties much agree to, and like any legal binding contracts it probably has flaws and favored one side in certain situations. If you or anyone find the contract to a point that you can’t accept, you don’t have to enter into it. Many men like myself before I met my current gf also do not want to get married because we find that it is also not favorable to men. In fact there are entire communities of men who have spoken out against marriage and have decided they won’t get married.
Many people in return have entered into a non legal binding agreement and live together. It seems hypocritical of women to say in 2018 to say they don’t need men to support them and can be independent and fight for it. And at the same time complain marriage they willfully entered into with a person is unfair. Also who you entered the contract of marriage matters. It’s unfortunate and I’m sure there are cases of men who just come home from a bad day of work and start swinging. And I’m sure there are women who do that. In fact reputable sources say that it’s pretty even that men are also victims of domestic abuse. Although women tend to be higher but it’s almost close to 50/50 at least in the West. And like I said. There are over 2000+ domestic violence shelters in the US and only 1 for men when the numbers all say men are almost just as likely to be victims.
I’m not trying to blame the victim, but I’m guessing most men and women who married their spouse usually have seen some sign or evidence that their spouse can be violent and abusive. I’m sure in certain cases there might be non. But I can remember a girl I was with actually do things like throw her heels at me when we fought. I broke it off the next day and never saw her even though she tried to apologize. That’s a clear sign that someone can be abusive. I’ve never laid a finger on a girl or even punched a wall or something of that nature when I’m fighting with a women. Even that’s a sign. It’s basically saying look at the wall, you’re next if you continue to make me angry. So I have to make the case that in many situations. A person who entered the contract of marriage could have avoided it.
Problem is when the contract is more indentured slavery, the way a residency is dependent on it. I know too many Taiwanese couples divorced and living under the same roof, but taht si anotehr story…
In what way you feel the marriage to your gf is not favorable to you as a man?
I’ve never seen a marriage contract. Business, house, car, credit card, bank account, employment contracts, yes. You’d think the most important contract most people ever enter into would be available in written form though. My guess is it’s deliberately not available for due diligence because if it were few men would ever enter into it. Just the number of TBD blank spaces in a written marriage contract alone would be enough to deter any financially savvy man.
Well I actually found it acceptable with her after talking over some details and views we have if we do.
For one, I don’t think the financial sharing of a marriage seem favorable to me, especially during a divorce. I’m in a situation where I would come into a large and already have a large estate under my name that most people probably would never get in a lifetime. I don’t wish to share it if for some reason the marriage would break up. She and I talked about it and agreed we would have some sort of separate financial holding and not everything would be joint. Not saying we wouldn’t combine our wealth to both our benefits but there would be some that are kept separate. I found her to be a suitable match because she and her family also have a considerable estate and she also wants to keep fully if something was to happen. We both agree there would be some prenuptial agreements. Unfortunately marriage mixes money and I’ve found very few women that I found in equal standing in regards to that. Not to sound like a jerk and say women are gold diggers. But that’s just the reality.
Another is marriage courts, at least in the US usually favor the women for things like child custody. So although we can’t make some agreements on this, I found her to be a good moral and sound minded person that reasonable and not bashful and respects me. So I’m willing to take that risk with her
Not only do we get a huge benefit combining our wealth. we both get a huge benefit because of our citizenship status. I’m a US and ROC citizen she’s an Italian and EU passport holder. It opens a huge option for us for our lives. She can gain residency and possibly citizenship married to me. And I the same with her. So I find this favorable.
I think the marriage as a state institution is stupid if you’re doing it only for love. You can love someone and not be married to them. It’s been used for things like I mentioned. Joint wealth, joining families and building a better situation for both parties like gaining more opportunities. I see it as that. I’m past the buying a worth rock that debeers controls supplies of and brain washed people into thinking you need to buy one for marriage. I see what marriage as a state institution used to really be for. And I find the terms acceptable with my current gf and I also do love her as well so that’s all the better.
I might be a bit too harsh on this point, because I need the same degree of efforts to read English and Chinese. Might be same with Andrew saying the choices of women are a lack of dedication.
Mm, that is quite reasonable. You love her but your big head is still connected. Divisioon of labor and assets and future plans must be crystal clear so there are no complaints afterwards.
Of course, you are thinking about a marriage in the US. In taiwan, the situation would be abit different. In US you can still do separate assets marriage, when dissolved, each part takes what they got in with, no more, no less. Same in ol country. Joint assets split by the middle. Of course, each state has its different laws, so that is one to take into consideration.
It is still a transcultural marriage, which has greater survival in neutral ground. That rules out Europe, Asia and US. It is Latin America, Australia, Africa or the Middle East for you guys! Just kidding.
I wouldn’t be so harsh, dear. Two kids or more and working in the family business, then coming home to cook, most middle class to working class foreign wives have it quite busy.
I also have a success story from that part, my Vietnamese neighbor. She got there about teh sam etime as yours truly, 18 years ago. Bore 3 sons, worked the hubby’s bodega. Started selling SEA products in the store, then cooking meals and selling in teh garage- after the kids entered school. Now that the oldest is in high school, she moved from a stand to take over the store location.
I feel like what you’re describing are more situational and ties into economic, and many different countries with different laws and living conditions. Yes many places and situations are unfair. I could easily point out many husbands working 2 jobs to support their family in one of these countries while their wife is messing around and divorce and lose both his kids. Do we have a egalitarian world, no. This isn’t a fairy tale and I want to help and do as much good as I can but there are just some bad things in the world. You can make your life as a social worker or start foundations and legal firms helping people like these if you like. But to call it evidence of patriarchy is not really fair imo. Of course you point to Saudi Arabia you can say women have it unfair. But I’m sure you have it better than most men in say Syria right now.
And I think that’s what makes part of this conversation hard. We can easily point to worst situations and say it’s evidence of something. It’s a hard conversation because I’m in total agreement that women have it rough in many places and situations but I can say men are also in much worst situations than women in comparing places.
my harshness on language is toward those coming from English speaking countries, especially as white collar workers or students. Not a small amount of information are already provided in their native language, though it might not be perfect. They could have time to learn Chinese, while others learn English.
No. Prison’s too good for adulterers. She should have been stoned to death. After having everything taken from her she should have been buried up to her neck and stoned TO DEATH. Filthy fornicators having disgusting sloppy sexual intercourse. Limbs entwined. Body grinding against body. It makes me want to PUKE!
Incontinentia and I only commit the double backed beast once a month, and then it is always missionary position with the lights off and in total silence. Afterwards we feel suitably dirty and ashamed.
Thank you for bringing me up to date on adultery laws in Taiwan. They are clearly far too liberal and the authorities here could learn a lot from some countries in the Middle East. Adultery is without doubt the most serious crime known to man and the punishment needs to fit it accordingly. The prisons here will need to be expanded, though, as I believe a fair proportion of men must also be unaware of the current law - especially when I hear about what they get up to while in China on business.
