Why is it so difficult to find friends in Taipei? What am I doing wrong?

I was simply making a suggestion. It’s up to the OP to take a look at her own personality and feelings and see if it applies. Or not. And she did say that’s what she intends to do, even though she’s doesn’t feel good about it. Which is an incredibly mature response and will probably pay dividends.

“Encouraging” someone doesn’t work if they’re doing all the wrong things. Her question was: “what am I doing wrong?”. Now, admittedly, a lot of my answer was “this is what I did wrong”. However, I get the impression she might be doing similar things. If she’s not, then of course she can ignore my answer.

I wish - when I was younger and doing all the wrong things - someone older had just told me how it is, without beating around the bush. That’s all I’m trying to do here. If it’s blunt or “judgemental”, too bad.

What we project to others is a direct reflection of what we believe about ourselves. If we aren’t sure what we believe, that shows too. People are attracted to what they see … because there’s nothing else available to them. You might be someone completely different inside, but if you’re putting up a front - perhaps because you’re lying to yourself, or because you think your “true” self is “incorrect” - then you’ll meet people who are attracted to that front. And you’ll be disappointed by them.

[quote]You might be someone completely different inside, but if you’re putting up a front - perhaps because you’re lying to yourself, or because you think your “true” self is “incorrect” - then you’ll meet people who are attracted to that front.
[/quote]

This might hold true in the situation of a person changing themselves to conform to a group of people, but again, we currently don’t know her in person. So we can’t know if this advice applies to her. Would you agree that’s a fair statement? I don’t think she mentioned even once that she was trying to be fit in with anyone or group of people. So how can we suggest this advice without knowing her full story?

That said, I think you have many insightful things to share, but I personally wouldn’t provide such advice unless I heard more details about what she’s experienced.

No, it’s true for everyone. We all have certain masks that we put on for different situations. As long as those masks don’t veer too far from our personal view of ourselves, all is well. The trouble comes when our masks are very, very different from the person we believe we are, or when we are using masks to substitute for a robust sense of self.

Well, obviously. But what’s are my options then?

a) Say nothing, just in case my advice is irrelevant.
b) Throw it out there just on the offchance it might be useful.

I’m going with b).

She said she was having an identity crisis and I took that at face value. Maybe she meant it, maybe she didn’t. She also said “I’m not interested in casual sex”. I get that she probably means “I’m not interested in casual sex with everyone”. But why make a point of that? Now maybe I hang out with strange people, but I’ve never encountered anyone who hasn’t, at some point in their lives, met a person who inspires nothing but lust; someone who just presses all the right buttons. So she’s either being dishonest with herself, or she’s led a rather sheltered life. Either case needs looking into.

In the absence of any other information, I can only go on what’s written. If I tried to second-guess every other sentence, I’d be left with writing platitudes. If that means she thinks I’m a judgmental, self-righteous asshole, so be it, but at least I’m not wearing a mask :wink:

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Guys and girls see things a bit differently . Over in TAiwan I had little trouble finding friends of the opposite sex (but they didn’t come and attack me with attention ) but here in the USA, its zero in 16 years. I had to “import” my girlfriends. None of them were locally found.

My Indo wife had zero friends when she arrived here 3 years ago.
No car (didn’t know how to drive one), no job, no friends. Pretty sad for an outgoing persona like her.

But she went out by herself when I was at work and one day went into a cafe and ran into a couple of Indonesians living here. They became her buds and introduced an indo get-to-gether-once-a-week-and-chat club in berkeley. And she went there and made a few other friends.

And now that she is in school, she’s made several other friends.

So if you adopt a friendly attitude and keep “going out there” you could run into someone who could introduce someone else, etc.

A great way for me to make friends in taiwan was to habituate one or two cafes. Go there daily . Get to know the owners. And the owners friends.

Pretty soon you are part of a group. Friends are like snowballs. One becomes two, becomes three , etc.

But you have to be approachable. And don’t immediately think someone is worthless to know the moment they approach. Give them a chance.
Also why not do the approaching yourself? You can be the one starting the conversation. Most guys are at least receptive to an approach by a nice lady.

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My take on the OP’s condition, maybe I related. It’s not I have problem meeting people. Acquaintances, casual people I joke with, but genuine friends to spend time with. I think perhaps this is her dilemma. One of the biggest stumble blocks I noticed was money. The locals are more tight on money, so if it’s not really something they are interested with, then forget it. Laziness. Too far or too much effort on them, forget it. 好麻煩啊. The relationships are less mutual but realistic with the older age group as you reach out to society. People can be overly realistic. So in a way, them using you to learn English is your upper hand. Instead of being disgruntled about it, I would advise the OP on thinking how to make the relationships more mutual. At the same time explore other options like others are saying.

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[quote=“tommy525”]
Guys and girls see things a bit differently . [/quote]
Sure. I wasn’t saying she needs to either put out more, or become a cat lady. I was just using that as an example of the way people are dishonest with themselves. Sex, more than anything else, is subject to all kinds of social pressures and taboos, and most people comply. Consider how gay people had to behave not so long ago in order to avoid persecution.

If the OP genuinely doesn’t have much of a sex drive, or really does feel comfortable with the socially-prescribed method for finding sexual partners (“dating”), all well and good. My main point (and you said something similar) was that by discounting all men with a more … flexible view on the matter, regardless of their other personal attributes, she’s basically written off 80% of the heterosexual male population. Some of them might be absolutely awesome chaps, but she’ll never find out.

Incidentally, the reason I’m banging on about boyfriends (rather than friends in general) is that a bf will come with a readymade package of other friends, or a social circle with potential friends. Plus, actually having a S.O. does wonders for your self-confidence and general satisfaction with life, and that shows in the way you speak and act.

Yup. This. She will probably also find that, by doing the approaching herself, men are on their best behaviour: it happens so infrequently that they’ll be less inclined to screw it up with crass remarks.

What the HELL does the OP’s sex drive or lack thereof have to do with her feeling it is difficult to make friends in Taiwan, a place where most “friend candidates” come from a different cultural background, and the ones who might match her in language or culture are mostly transient?

Boyfriend’s friends are not automatically girl’s friends, either. They’re boyfriend’s friends. In fact, I would rate getting a bunch of ordinary, shared-interest, doing-things-together friends by means of a boyfriend’s connections as less likely than getting an automatic circle of friends from meeting a friend of the same gender.

And why make a point of “I’m not interested in casual sex”?? Sheesh. Even as a not very attractive foreigner woman back in the day I had to deal with that shit. After the first, oh, I don’t know, five or six times through, it gets tiring to have your time completely wasted like that.

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I’m probably just digging myself into a hole here, but did you even read the rest of the post?

The OP comes across as grouchy and frustrated with life in general. If she’s surrounded by people but not finding friends, the most likely reason is this: people don’t like her. There, I said it. That’s not quite right though: they don’t like the person they see. It’s really that simple.

Finding a bf/gf is an awfully good way, for most people, of dragging yourself out of a bad place, even if that person turns out to be somewhat temporary. If you discount the temporary ones - the ones that are pretty much guaranteed to be long-term incompatible, but short term might make you smile again - you’re going to stay in that rut for longer than you otherwise might. This is nothing to do with “casual sex”. I have no idea what that’s even supposed to mean. What’s the opposite? Serious sex? Professional sex? The OP used the phrase and I was looking behind the curtain. If you (or the OP) feel uncomfortable mentioning the S-word, not really my problem.

I have no doubt it is. I did try to explain why certain sorts of men try their luck with some women and not others, and you’re the second woman who’s dismissed my explanation out-of-hand. Here’s an experiment for you to try: go to a club or bar where people are there to pick up or get picked up; not a sleazy one, but one where that is the basic intent. Locate an attractive woman who gives off an “I like myself and the world is my playground” vibe. See how many creeps try it on with her. It’ll be close to zero. Why? Because they know they’re creeps. The girls who tend to get pounced on by an unwelcome audience have an “I don’t belong here” face (like the Radiohead song).

As I said earlier, I’m not assigning blame. I’m just pointing out that even if not your fault, you do have a level of control. You can choose to accept that, or not.

Sometimes, sometimes not. You have a choice, don’t you, to dismiss “the guys” as a minor irritation who take time away from your relationship, or accept that they’re possibly-nice people who you might get along with. Logically, if you get along with the bf, you might also get along with his friends and their friends. Over the years, I’ve met some wonderful people via my at-the-time S.O. They weren’t necessarily her immediate social circle; just friends of friends or people we bumped into while socializing together.

Incidentally, bit of basic psychology: being seen in the company of an attractive person enhances your own attractiveness; you become a more likable person in the eyes of others. Hundreds of high-school kids know that one.

Well, that’s the male perspective on it. As you said, now two women have dismissed it. How many have to dismiss it before you realize that it’s a male perspective, and that just because it is one perspective doesn’t make it THE perspective, or the RIGHT perspective?

No one is dismissing the friends of the “boyfriend” – we are simply saying that in our collective experience as women, “a boyfriend” is not a good route to what the OP is looking for, and the existence of people looking for casual sex is a major barrier to what she’s looking for. I’m not in any way saying you’re not well-meaning or trying to offer useful advice. I am saying, though, that your advice is offered through the lens of the “you control things” male perspective.

I did not in any way read the OP as being grouchy or frustrated by life in general. She posted asking for advice about a specific issue. If that makes a person grouchy or frustrated, then everyone is.

Of course it’s the male perspective. I’m talking about what’s going on in the minds of men, and describing how you (or rather the OP) might use that information to her advantage. You don’t have to believe me, but since I have a male brain myself and have spent a lifetime talking about such things with other men, including some rather creepy ones, I would have thought you’d give me the benefit of the doubt, at least.

Trust me, when men are sizing you up as a potential ONS, they’re not rating your physical attractiveness or your prospects as a GF. All they’re interested in is the probability of acquiescence. Horrible, but that’s the way it is. The point being, they’re using your non-verbal cues to do this, so you can minimize the creepage factor by minimizing your use of those cues.

Most people have both more and less control than they believe they do. By focusing on things she doesn’t like, the OP is ignoring many levers of control that are at her disposal. Conversely, a lot of things that happen to us happen at random; we can’t control them, but we can enhance the likelihood of the right things happening by trying lots of different things. This isn’t about men or women: it just boils down to how you view the world.

You can’t always get what you want. Sometimes, taking the roundabout route will get you there quicker. Wasn’t there something about that in Alice in Wonderland?

Whoever starts a thread on an Internet forum with the question What am I doing wrong? in the title is running the risk of having it answered, not necessarily in the way they were expecting to. If I were the OP, I wouldn’t get worked up over people telling me what they think I’m doing wrong, especially if I asked them to do just that. In fact, the reason I originally posted in this thread was because I thought that was an odd thing for the OP to say in response.

I don’t think I’ve ever asked for advice on the Internet but if I did, I’d like to get it delivered in Finley’s straightforward style. I don’t necessarily have to agree with him on everything but I’d appreciate that it challenges my existing point of view without beating around the bush. The OP appears to want a solution not just consolation, and this might involve getting her out of her comfort zone. Convincing her that nothing can be done or that it’s all jolly good the way it is will not help.

Some food for thought for the OP below:

  • Instead of thinking how to make friends, think of what you like to do first, and then find the people to do it with.
  • Particularly in Taiwan’s passive culture, it’s easier to make friends not through individual contact with random strangers but when you’re all part of a group; so, be a member of many groups.
  • I am guessing many of your negative experiences come from the fact that you are categorized as an “ABC”, and a non-Chinese speaking one at that. “ABCs” often get the outsider treatment just like “real foreigners” but without the benefits of exoticity, and it can be particularly harsh If their spoken or written Chinese is less than excellent. Some local people will label you as “showing off” before you can even say or do anything. From what I know, this experience is quite common, and it’d help if you could find other “ABCs” (or people who get labeled as such) to discuss it with.

With regard to the last point, it’s not anything you’re doing wrong of course but this is something you won’t be able to change. If you want to be perceived primarily as an individual and not as a prototype member of some group with all kinds of stereotypes affixed to it, you might be in the wrong country.

One more thing, friendships are not a binary thing, there are many intermediate states possible: not everyone you meet you will want to be very close with but they still might be fun to hang out with from time to time. Closer friendships develop from more distant ones, so don’t reject people completely right from the start, setting the bar for them artificially high and focusing on their negatives, you might very well find out you were initially wrong about them once you give them a chance.

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Dear Community,

I have returned to settle this one and for all. Some of you seem to be confused, offended, or annoyed by what I wrote. Some of you made assumptions–educated guesses, but incorrect–about me. English is not my first language, so I will try to be as direct as possible to clear things.

I. I probably need to clarify THE ACTUAL QUESTION I WAS ASKING, because I wasn’t clear enough. I was looking for two or maybe three things from the post:
a. sources on where I could acquaint potential long-term friends
i. that is not language exchange, and;
ii. that is not based on sexual tension

b. some encouraging and helpful anecdotes from people who share similar frustration.

c. what I could be doing wrong (as the title asks). But then again, I am a very confident person, and don’t really think I am the problem. It’s a cultural thing where I superficially blame myself to be polite.

There were very helpful answers (which I tried to click “like” on for future reference if anyone revisits the topic) and thank you all for that.

II. CORRECTIONS on your very valid yet incorrect educated guesses:
a. I am not an ABC (or of similar nature).
I am an Asian from a neighboring country. I am not huaren (or however that translates to English). I do look very Taiwanese, both in facial structure and in complexion, so people often take me for Taiwanese or Chinese-Singaporean.
b. I do speak decent Chinese.
Not just “oh, that’s cute” level, but “able to follow college level lectures and produce paper” level. So can’t really blame language ability for that.

III. CLARIFICATIONS on what may have offended some readers:

So… this poured oil to a small fire. Comments until this point were very helpful.
You guys know that there are Asian foreigners out there, right? Top five countries of origin for expats in Taiwan are Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, and Malaysia.
Regardless of one’s color or origin, foreigners have been more upfront about wanting sex only a day or two after acquainting me. This is natural and not limited to Taiwan. Sex is still a taboo in most parts of the world but foreigners are more courageous than locals because there’s some level of anonymity guaranteed for their lives in Taiwan.
@Brianjones There were foreign and Taiwanese men who asked me out on dates. Thing didn’t always go down the way we would have wanted, but I appreciate their gestures.
These “foreigners” I am sick of are the ones who ask me, directly, if I want to have sex before even asking my name. Some even offered money.
@Doraemonster Have I made generalizations? Yes. I am sorry if this makes you sad. But this particular comment was a reply to the following:

So yes, I would want to avoid exposing myself to such environment when there are clear precedents. I can’t blame the whole “foreigners,” but if the statistics express danger signs, I want to do what’s in my best interest; Avoid them all and stay safe.
@finley Not all guys are hitting on me, and with sole purpose of sex. There were good guys too, as I mentioned. At least the ones I met so far, left Taiwan sooner or later. However, Many straight guys won’t mind free pussy. I want to be a person, not a free pussy.

“hurtful comment”

I don’t particularly mind other things finley said. I am a very confident person and I started with an approach that there was nothing wrong on my part :stuck_out_tongue:
This comment, however, sounded like I was only worth for my beauty and that it will fade away. I have met great people and have created meaningful bonds with them. I would hate to think that all my males friends liked me for my sexual charm and my female friends were all secretly gay for me :wink:
There were several others that were…insensitive and sexist coming from him after I left the post, but I still learned how his (and many other men, as he claims) brain works. Good insight and thank you for sharing.

IV. UPDATE and future guide for those who may be going through similar issues:
a. Meetup.com is probably not very helpful
There aren’t many meetup groups in Taiwan that holds regular events. Try Accupass if you can read Chinese.
b. Do join queer community (special thanks to @Gain)
Men won’t hit on you and lesbians will understand the sufferings of being hit on by random men. They are good buddies.
c. Sports
Some kind members have PMed me and (sort of) introduced me to sports activities. I appreciate the gesture, but I think I’m going to stick with my own schedule. It’s one of those things I really enjoy doing alone.
d. Approaching first
I need to work up my courage a little more before I do this. I think I will try it tomorrow over at Eslite. I can’t think of more appropriate place to talk to strangers. Please do comment if you have suggestions (and I will follow up on results).
e. Religious groups (suggested through PM)
I don’t have particular faith, but I will try one this weekend.
f. Couchsurfing
Since I travel a lot, this is the community where I met most of my friends, and this is where I screwed up. There are many great people (and people you definitely want to avoid) on CS, but these people were all visitors to Taiwan and didn’t really stay. My friend told me to stop hosting people, and I think it will allow me more time to meet the locals and expats instead of visitors. Leave ASAP and be selfish AF.

V. special thanks:
@abovik You pointed out exactly how I feel. However, this is exactly why I want (preferably) local friends. I keep myself happy being friendless, but I need Taiwan-friendly perspective added to my goggles so that I can be happy WITH Taiwan.
@ironlady I think you are the first comment to understand that I am not looking for boyfriend to be the solution of my problems. Somehow the discussion moved from “Where to find friends?” to “What’s wrong with her to not want sex?”
@finley and @tommy525 Thank you for trying and sharing male insight. I will be sure to work on staying positive and confident. Wish me luck!
And many others I forgot to mention. Thank you for helping; stop fighting.

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I still don’t like your blanket use of the word ‘foreigners’. It sounds crass and a bit racist to me:
Dont imbibe his kind of way of thinking about the world. After all YOU are a foreigner too.

My point is by conintunally bringing up the ‘foreigners’ you met (and only later admitting many of them were actually just quick visitors to Taiwan) you lump in the huge diversity of long time hard working intelligent funny whacky foreigners I’ve met in Taiwan over the years.
That pisses me off.

His place would be a COMPLETE dead zone without foreigners and only EXISTS because of foreigners.

great update, tpe. It seems like I (and others) misunderstood what you were asking. In light of your comments:

I was just kidding … sort of. I was referring specifically to unwelcome attention, not to men (or people) in general. It will stop when you’re about 40, partly for the superficially obvious reason, partly because men in that age range have grown up (slightly), and partly because they know women in that age range have been there, done that, and generally got their shit together.

FWIW I can understand (a bit) how unpleasant it might be to have guys coming up to you offering money etc for sex. It’s possible you look more non-Taiwanese than you think. I’ve had a few female friends from S.E.Asia and they get this a lot. I mean, not literally every day, but enough to really piss you off. Women from the Philippines and (to a lesser extent) Malaysia and Vietnam have a certain reputation, and it’s not entirely undeserved: in the Philippines especially, life revolves mostly around money and sex. The result is that every woman who looks like she’s from those countries gets tarred with the same brush. It is what it is. Just try not to let it spoil your interactions with other men. Most of us are fairly sane, honest.

I’m in my late 40s, so I don’t really do PC. I stopped being “sensitive” when I realised it tends to backfire. It’s better to say what you mean. I trust that you can filter out what’s useful (if anything) from my unvarnished ranting :wink:

I’ve heard that Eslite is where people go for “casual sex”, believe it or not. I have no personal experience of such goings-on, so this may be purely a rumour. No harm in giving it a go, but I’d say tommy’s coffee-shop suggestion is the best, because it gives you the chance to nod and smile at regulars without feeling pressured to start a conversation. I have two favourite coffee shops (one in this country, one in another) where some genuinely interesting people hang out.

Good luck!

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No problem :grin:

try to make some female friends if you are shocked that guys want to sex you… it seems you are overly sensitive to that so why not just avoid it?

Again, my question was not about WHOM I meet, but was about WHERE I meet them. Nowhere in my original post of my comments have I ruled out the option of female friends. I would love to have female friends!

I haven’t had much interactions with females in Taiwan who were not exchange students. I think it’s because most of women my age are either married and/or focused on building their career. If not married, they are looking for potential partners for marriage, so they have very limited time to spare for a new foreigner friend.

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well maybe you should rule out meeting guys since you have such a problem with it. its either that or keep ranting, because guys are not going to stop wanting sex with girls anytime soon.

you may have a bit of of an attitude problem anyway. as is usually the case when someone gets some decent advice on here and rejects every bit of it…

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