Will there be a drop in housing prices?

[quote=“headhonchoII”]I looked through the start of the thread,many including me believed things had essentially topped out. Some extraordinary things happened to fuel the boom further …quantitative easing and the change from 50% gift tax to 10% gift tax and inheritance laws were the things pulled out of the hat to juice everything. Then you had cross strait flights and the initiation of many new MRT lines and highways. They were some big changes that boosted prices to crazy levels following a brief lull in 2008. The only thing that could prop up this whole thing is some kind of China immigrant and investment visa . I guess some legislators and rich connected folk will be agitating for this, but I think this will be a much tougher trick to pull off than the inheritance/gift tax.

Also now there must be hundreds
of thousands apartments added to supply, so supply/demand part is getting more imbalanced (not that it has seemed to matter so far).[/quote]

headhonchoII, very interesting to go way back to the beginning and good analysis. If everyone thought things had essentially topped out way back then (and were wrong) then perhaps we’re set up to believe the same again?

As mentioned before, if they do indeed tighten the reins on quantitative easing then maybe that will have an effect on housing prices…but as you pointed out, additional supply hasn’t and made much of a difference so far. :s

As much as the in-laws like to push for us to get a house and settle down now, I’m totally fine with renting. Additional supply also means decent places will be on the market for those who don’t want to sell their asset but still want to cover (at least a part of) their mortgage. I’d love to be a homeowner at some point, might have to settle for a cabin on a lake somewhere.

It will be interesting to see if Taiwan responds to the stronger dollar by raising rates. Or maybe they will be happy with a weaker currency in the :pray: hopes :pray: that exports go up.

The weaker currency will always be pushed here because the government is in hock to big business interests who always favor the cheap NTD. The crappy NTD is not favourable to most of us.
Usually countries raise interest rates to combat inflation (not going to happen here I would say as energy has gotten cheaper) or to support keeping funds in stock market/money in Taiwan (a bit more likely). The other reason is when credit becomes hard to access in foreign markets interest rates could go up, but Taiwan’s central bank, as far as I know, borrows very little in foreign markets. Thats quite unusual. Therefore maybe it will be the banks that themselves that may raise interest rates ultimately if their bad debts increase. It’s a bit complicated to predict. Japan has some quantitative easing now and so does the EU.
Looking at past predictions we can see its difficult to predict the future accurately, all we can say is its much cheaper to rent than buy for the decent places!

Taiwan’s interest rate policy won’t follow inflation. They skip to the tune of major central banks around the world which is to ensure you cash is worth nothing so you don’t save it but throw it at other assets hoping for a return such as property and stocks. They don’t give 2 sh%$s about inflation. It’s all about propping up the bubble and keeping the currency low (think of who the majority of voters are here in Taiwan - old money + business, not youth who are totally squeezed out the property market and can never enter without family assistance).

In Taiwan you have a generally overvalued stock market and house market that assumes i rates are low forever. If you buy insurance, the policies are priced in the same way (discounted with 1% interest rates). A very dangerous recipe for when the economy finally turns sour cos you have shot all your stimulus bullets.

i rates will go up when risk returns - when banks realize that property prices may actually go down. Their models are built on the last 30 years of data assuming it’s a one way bet and property never goes down. At that stage, the banks will be most heavily exposed, as will property developers. Here in bubble land -Sanxia, the developers have built grandoise buildings but in many cases, are holding out, not even selling cos they see it as a Long term investment. They aren’t selling so as to rig the market (tighten supply) further.

I suspect if property prices fall 5-10% nationwide, it will be enough to sink almost every bank’s balance sheets into the red. Will TW’s federal reserve bail them out when their books are underwater? That remains to be seen. Taishin bank almost sank in the last recession.

Buy property when there is blood on the streets, not when i rates are at record lows and every 3rd storefront is a real estate outlet like in my neighbourhood.

btw - yes there is plenty other housing supply out there. I bet about 50% of it is gargantuan crapfiend 1960’s concrete blocks with iron curtains up to 5 floors high that not any aspiring new buyer would ever dream of. That supply is tightly held by some cheesy speculator who doesn’t give a rats a$$ about how it disfigures the landscape and skyline and is holding out for another 10 years cos property only ever goes up.

[quote=“cyberguppy”]Taiwan’s interest rate policy won’t follow inflation. They skip to the tune of major central banks around the world which is to ensure you cash is worth nothing so you don’t save it but throw it at other assets hoping for a return such as property and stocks. They don’t give 2 sh%$s about inflation. It’s all about propping up the bubble and keeping the currency low (think of who the majority of voters are here in Taiwan - old money + business, not youth who are totally squeezed out the property market and can never enter without family assistance).

In Taiwan you have a generally overvalued stock market and house market that assumes i rates are low forever. If you buy insurance, the policies are priced in the same way (discounted with 1% interest rates). A very dangerous recipe for when the economy finally turns sour cos you have shot all your stimulus bullets.

i rates will go up when risk returns - when banks realize that property prices may actually go down. Their models are built on the last 30 years of data assuming it’s a one way bet and property never goes down. At that stage, the banks will be most heavily exposed, as will property developers. Here in bubble land -Sanxia, the developers have built grandoise buildings but in many cases, are holding out, not even selling cos they see it as a Long term investment. They aren’t selling so as to rig the market (tighten supply) further.

I suspect if property prices fall 5-10% nationwide, it will be enough to sink almost every bank’s balance sheets into the red. Will TW’s federal reserve bail them out when their books are underwater? That remains to be seen. Taishin bank almost sank in the last recession.

Buy property when there is blood on the streets, not when i rates are at record lows and every 3rd storefront is a real estate outlet like in my neighbourhood.

btw - yes there is plenty other housing supply out there. I bet about 50% of it is gargantuan crapfiend 1960’s concrete blocks with iron curtains up to 5 floors high that not any aspiring new buyer would ever dream of. That supply is tightly held by some cheesy speculator who doesn’t give a rats a$$ about how it disfigures the landscape and skyline and is holding out for another 10 years cos property only ever goes up.[/quote]

Talking about insurance, it’s very fortunate that Taiwanese are some of the worlds biggestsavers and keep blindly sticking money in insurance companies, otherwise they would have bankrupted years ago from legacy policies which paid out very generously upon reaching their term. Insurance companies are also a big part of what has kept prices so high, they own a lot of the development land and commercial buildings around Taiwan. They only got permission very recently to invest overseas…pretty crazy situation. A lot of the time it’s one insurance company selling to another, then they book the profits. Banks possibly loan the money at low rates to both the insurance companies (which they may own as a subsidiary) and also to the developers and the bankers make a good commission too. I wouldn’t be that surprised if they have a gentlemens agreement to buy off each other at regular intervals and to add increments of value! Everybody wins :popcorn: . All local financial companies trading with each other.

This is interesting.
chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/busi … prices.htm

[quote]Among the 76 bids tendered by construction firms, real estate developers, insurance firms, and financial institutions, Lih Pao Construction paid the highest price of NT$2.13 million a ping for a land parcel, eclipsing the previous record of NT$1.78 million set for a land lot near the Banqiao Railway Station in 1997.

The Farglory Group, one of Taiwan’s biggest construction firms and realty developers, was the biggest winner as its construction and life insurance companies snapped up five land lots totaling 3,700 ping with capital investment of about NT$6.5 billion in Xinzhuang.

The group already owns more than 6,000 ping of land in the same area.[/quote]

I’ve often thought it would be nice to own a bank, insurance company and construction company at the same time and have friends in government. It would also be a nice scheme to get premiums from local citizens to then use that as leverage to speculate on local real estate and then sell off the property back to the same citizens at inflated prices. It would be nice to have a bank to then offer low interest or low deposit down loans or no interest for 5 year loans to entice buyers to buy at said inflated prices. Virtuous circle, what could go wrong :cactus:

(If anybody is interested they can look up the story of Anglo Irish Bank, who had concocted a great scheme whereby they loaned money to their major debtors to buy back shares in the bank with the banks own money…ah finance)

realestate.ipe.com/news/investor … 75.article

If they invest overseas in China and the whole house of cards collapses… ayiooo

OK, more developments in the real estate situation in my area. Last year, the deal to raze and rebuild our gonyus -which are like 40 plus years old- as a high rise fell though. Now, the market area and the newer gongyus -20, maybe 30 something years old or so- was supposedly greenlighted for rebuilding… and I was just informed that the deal also went kaput.

On one hand, I am happy because then we have more time to evacuate the market cats. But the rents have been going through teh roof, several traditional market vendors have been priced out and left.

In a couple of years, teh new MRT line will start. What will happen then? Are the owners so sure there is no limit to teh ceiling or could it be as they say that the deals were so bad?

What do you think will happen in teh future to this overpriced area and its crumbling structures? Can I still invest in some new doors before the termites leave me with gentle nature breezes as sole companions? I’d rather not move because of teh pets. And I ain’t buying.

Yesterday I went to have a look at the Kunyang area … it’s 3 stops away from City Hall and city center, it’s like ending up in a 70’s country side village … it’s even worse then were I live in NTC, Sanxia … it’s a real estate black hole.
Than went on to NangKang trainstation … two new high rise towers, why? … At the exit of the MRT station they have an ‘extreme sports’ center, it was extreme as it’s completely run down and they don’t have money to maintain it according to the guard … it’s city property … no money, :ohreally:

The whole Nangang zone looks like a boom town waiting to happen. Nangang Station is set to become (like Banqiao) a three-in-one operation: MRT, Taiwan Rail, and THSR. Any predictions on what will happen here?

Guy

Nangang is super expensive to purchase a place in, but currently it’s not a very good spot to live as there is a serious lack of eateries and supermarkets and rent is fairly expensive too. Songshan area is going to pick up a lot with the redevelopment of the train station area.

Was out in Linkou during the week, it’s nice to have a bit of breathing space and it’s fairly well laid out if unimaginative. It’s similar to Zhubei or Sanxia I guess. There’s the new area where an outlet centre is going in and then the established area a bit to the North and Chang Geng is still building more hospitals on the other side. The MRT line should open next year I guess. The whole place has got busier but there’s still a lot of empty space compared to Taipei city and it’s not messy like Taoyuan or Xinzhuang etc. Having to drive back from Linkou to Xindian was fairly horrific, 50 mins of driving on highways and expressways through the endless urban jungle of New Taipei City.

I also visited Keelung recently and it’s a crying shame for one of Taiwan’s oldest cities, stinking sewer river through the middle and no harbour access, it really needs the MRT to go out there and some fresh ideas.

The demographic development here is against any boom. So is the amount of housing related debt.

[quote=“headhonchoII”]Nangang is super expensive to purchase a place in, but currently it’s not a very good spot to live as there is a serious lack of eateries and supermarkets and rent is fairly expensive too. Songshan area is going to pick up a lot with the redevelopment of the train station area.

Was out in Linkou during the week, it’s nice to have a bit of breathing space and it’s fairly well laid out if unimaginative. It’s similar to Zhubei or Sanxia I guess. There’s the new area where an outlet centre is going in and then the established area a bit to the North and Chang Geng is still building more hospitals on the other side. The MRT line should open next year I guess. The whole place has got busier but there’s still a lot of empty space compared to Taipei city and it’s not messy like Taoyuan or Xinzhuang etc. Having to drive back from Linkou to Xindian was fairly horrific, 50 mins of driving on highways and expressways through the endless urban jungle of New Taipei City.

I also visited Keelung (Jilong) recently and it’s a crying shame for one of Taiwan’s oldest cities, stinking sewer river through the middle and no harbour access, it really needs the MRT to go out there and some fresh ideas.[/quote]
There is Nangang (train station) and Nangang exhibition center area, close but different areas.

What you guys are saying about Kunyang, Xindian, nangang… it s as if the real estate market was waiting for something to happen. What? I dunno. salaries can only go lower, demographics are not helping, money is going nowhere…

The money going nowhere? Disagree, 50% of Taipei’s paychecks go to pay off housing debt.

The money going nowhere? Disagree, 50% of Taipei’s paychecks go to pay off housing debt.[/quote]

Yep, a big, engorged, disgusting, non productive black hole. That’s where it is going.

I have nothing good to say about Keelung and have titled it Taiwan’s corruption capital (it seems Nantou may be a close second). Putting the MRT out there would only cause a housing boon that would benefit the companies who are already paying off city officials.

Keelung sucks.

There’s a new apartment building near where I live in Xindian, and my friend said it’s 一百萬 (~33,000usd) per ping. When we walked past it at around 10pm, only about 5-10% of the lights were on. I guess the occupancy rate is very low.

Probably all sold out for investment reason and only few owners really are going to live there, some will rent out.

Those places by the xindian MRT certainly stick out compared to their surroundings. Indeed multi million dollar apartments in xindian sounds a bit barmy!

Yet average ping is really one million in Xindian. Ridiculous? Certainly, but there is something fishy cooking -especially that MeiHe Su area which we haven’t heard much of the scandal coming out anymore.