Original Title: Foreign spouses living like a Taiwanese
I would think this is mostly directed at Richard.
As a foreign spouse in Taiwan can I work in a kindergarten/ day care center. Please note I do not mention teaching English. I am just saying can I work there? The Taipei Times today (12/17) says foreigners cannot work in a kindergarten. I was under the impression that I could do any job a citizen of Taiwan can do as long as I am qualified for the job. Is this correct. And has anybody got a telephone number of somebody in a government office that deals with spouses and work and can give some official documentation on rules and regulations.
the one stipulation i got when i asked about jobs i could legally have after receiving my marriage ARC was … no kindy’s. the guy said everything else was fair game. now, i assume that he was speaking of teaching there as well, but what other job are you contemplating? lunch nanny? you may be able to get a management position, but i’m hardly certain.
if you want clarification, ask at the local police office you went to when you picked up your ARC. they should be able to tell you. the office here in taoyuan is by no means friendly, but they do attempt to help you if you have problems.
I was always under the impression that no visas could be given to foreigners teaching in kindergartens, which is a little different from saying that no foreigners can be hired. The problem is, who is going to be the test case? Even if somebody were willing to pay me the $5000NT/hour wage I would demand for teaching kindergarten, I’m not sure I would be willing to take the time, expense and possible legal consequences of fighting this in court. Factor in the likelihood that a JFRV ARC holder probably wouldn’t face the repercussions that a non-ARC holding foreigner might, and I think it is unlikely that this contradiction will get resolved any time soon.
I have asked many times, but been unable to find a law that actually backs up what the MOE always says - that foreigners can not teach on kindergartens.
But today’s Taipei Times mentions the Child Welfare Law,
Could anyone with expertise look up this law and see if there is indeed such a stipulation?
[quote=“Bu Lai En”]I have asked many times, but been unable to find a law that actually backs up what the MOE always says - that foreigners can not teach on kindergartens.
But today’s Taipei Times mentions the Child Welfare Law,
Could anyone with expertise look up this law and see if there is indeed such a stipulation?
Brian[/quote]
I take it that the sight of a hairy foreign monster will traumatize the children too much.
They’re making foreigners appear evil on the T.V too with all these anti-English for young children commercials.
Is the person making the decisions a former local teacher with a grudge against foreign teachers, sitting there thinking. 'I am going to get them ALL, ahhhh ha ha ha '?
Other than an English teacher eg assistant teacher, art teacher , music teacher, supervisor, classroom assistant etc as a foreign spouse could I do these jobs and thus work in Elementary schools in first and second grade as a teacher assistant.
[quote=“Bu Lai En”]I have asked many times, but been unable to find a law that actually backs up what the MOE always says - that foreigners can not teach on kindergartens. But today’s Taipei Times mentions the Child Welfare Law, Could anyone with expertise look up this law and see if there is indeed such a stipulation?
Brian[/quote]
It’s more to the point that kindy’s are not allowed by law to teach English, regardless of ROC or foreign teachers. Other positions in the school are quite fine.
There’s a similiar article on the Taipei City Government web site.
Here are links to the laws cited in the article:
Employment Services Act
Article 46 establishes what types of work a foreign worker may perform and the type of teaching allowed is pretty specific. While those who qualify for an open work permit under Article 51 are specifically exempted from Article 46, JFRV ARC/APRC holders are only specifically exempted from obtaining a permit. It is unclear if JFRV ARC/APRC holders are exempted from Article 46 or not. However, there seems not to be any penalty for violating Article 46.
Supplementary and Continuing Education Law
Unfortunately the english version is as ammended in 2002, and the 2004 changes are only in Chinese. There could be something relevant in the 2004 version. However, Article 9 is interesting as it seems to grant local governments the right to make up whatever rules they want to regulating cram schools, including the requirements of teachers.
Children and Youth Welfare Law
Articles 50 and 51 says that the qualifications for working in a kindergarten can be formulated by the central government. I don’t see where this is actually specified though.
So it appears that the laws do not contain the restrictions described, but they do give the government the power to issue regulations including such restrictions.
This GIO article seems to say that MOE regulations prohibit formally teaching English at the kindergarten level, but that incidental use of English is allowed. It furthermore says that another issue is that many of the kindergartens are not actually licensed by the MOE. I wonder what they’d do with a foreigner who spoke good chinese and only taught English incidentally?
[quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“Bu Lai En”]I have asked many times, but been unable to find a law that actually backs up what the MOE always says - that foreigners can not teach on kindergartens. But today’s Taipei Times mentions the Child Welfare Law, Could anyone with expertise look up this law and see if there is indeed such a stipulation?
Brian[/quote]
It’s more to the point that kindy’s are not allowed by law to teach English, regardless of ROC or foreign teachers. Other positions in the school are quite fine.
It’s not an anti foreigner thing.[/quote]
No I read the article too and the terminology used was “foreigner”. Could a foreigner be employed to clean up or cook in a kindergarten, or does this only apply to teaching?
What if I had an Art class in kindy but I happened to speak English. Am I ok teaching Art but as soon as I say the word “yellow” in English then I have broken the law?
[quote=“hexuan”][quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“Bu Lai En”]I have asked many times, but been unable to find a law that actually backs up what the MOE always says - that foreigners can not teach on kindergartens. But today’s Taipei Times mentions the Child Welfare Law, Could anyone with expertise look up this law and see if there is indeed such a stipulation?
Brian[/quote]
It’s more to the point that kindy’s are not allowed by law to teach English, regardless of ROC or foreign teachers. Other positions in the school are quite fine.
It’s not an anti foreigner thing.[/quote]
No I read the article too and the terminology used was “foreigner”. Could a foreigner be employed to clean up or cook in a kindergarten, or does this only apply to teaching?[/quote]
The newspaper may have said foreigner but the MOE regulations forbid teaching English, period. Newspapers don’t make the laws of this country just yet.
Perhaps they are just making it clear for the foreigners here who still believe that they can lagally teach English at Kindergartens as their bosses have all that great guanxi going on. It’s only when they’re on the plane after being deported do they realize that their bossess guanxi wasnt as good as it seemed to be.
I am not saying I wanted to teach English. But out of interest where is the law saying that English cannot be taught in kindergarten.
Where does it definitly state that no English can be taught in Kindy to the point that a Taiwanese English teacher could be stopped for teaching English. That the MOE would walk in and say under LAW ____ Article ____ English is not allowed to be taught? Not newspaper articles but pure written facts by the MOE.
This is something I’m wondering about, too. I’m a qualified preschool/elementary teacher, and can speak, read, and write Chinese… can I work legally in a preschool with my JFRV, if I’m not hired to teach English?
[quote=“Bassman”]I take it that the sight of a hairy foreign monster will traumatize the children too much.
They’re making foreigners appear evil on the T.V too with all these anti-English for young children commercials.[/quote]
You’ve never met Okami, have you.
“Avert your eyes children, he may take on other forms!” (Simpsons, 9F18)
[quote=“MaPoSquid”][quote=“Bassman”]I take it that the sight of a hairy foreign monster will traumatize the children too much.
They’re making foreigners appear evil on the T.V too with all these anti-English for young children commercials.[/quote]
You’ve never met Okami, have you.
“Avert your eyes children, he may take on other forms!” (Simpsons, 9F18)[/quote]
No, they don’t. I forget if it was earlier this year, or last year, but do you remember when the MOE said this? They then backtracked and allowed English in kindergartens, but not immersion English. They later clarified to say that up to half-day English was allowed.
But it seems that the MOE has said that foreigners are not allowed to teach English in kindergartens. This has been reported many times. However, I’ve never seen such a law. Now there may be an MOE regulation to this effect, but I don’t see how this could overrule the law that allows spouses of ROC citizens to do the same work as Taiwanese. A regulation can not overrule a law.
There may be something I’m missing here. I’m not being argumentative for the sake of it. For quite practical reasons, I’m genuinely curious.
Another interesting thing is that the Education Law under which the MOE has the power to set curriculum only specifies penalties for the school for violations. For a work ARC they can also revoke/deport the teacher, but it appears there is no provision under applicable laws to fine a JFRV ARC/APRC or APRC+OWP holder for teaching english at a kindergarten, only one for fining the school. (Don’t take this as advice though!)
Also for those who may be confused by the difference between law and regulation: Law is what the legislative body passes and tends to be a high level description of what is allowed/disallowed and the penalties for violation. The appropriate government body will then draft more detailed regulations to interpret more exactly what is or isn’t allowed. Regulations can be changed by that government body as they see fit, or as advised by higher powers, and courts can invalidate regulations more easily than the underlying law.
It seems quite likely that there is not, but as I have come to learn, through my experience, that doesn’t matter.
What will happen, in real life, is that the MOE will visit your school, and say that you’re working illegally. Showing them laws to the contrary will not make a difference. Your school will be given the choice of believing you or the MOE, If they believe you they run the risk of hefty fines from th MOE. Also, they might think that the MOE is the authority on employment laws in the education industry.
It seems quite likely that there is not, but as I have come to learn, through my experience, that doesn’t matter.
What will happen, in real life, is that the MOE will visit your school, and say that you’re working illegally. Showing them laws to the contrary will not make a difference. Your school will be given the choice of believing you or the MOE, If they believe you they run the risk of hefty fines from th MOE. Also, they might think that the MOE is the authority on employment laws in the education industry.
In short: The laws don’t matter.[/quote]
Yes Brian I agree with both your statements. I would sugest that persons cncerened about working in kindy contact the MOE department responsible for Kindy curriculam. It’s quite possible there’s too much contradictory info out there. Most kindy teachers are employed on work permits for the after school or bushiban visa. For the marriage visa I would guess that if caught you would not get deported… but then again I don’t have that risk.
[quote=“Bu Lai En”]The MOE can’t deport teachers as far as I know. Thats the FAP. MOE can certainly fine the schools though.
Brian[/quote]
