My point about the fact that Kojen didn’t tell me about the “unique legal situation” until after I got here was to point out that there is no way the government can control what the schools are telling the prospective teachers. It just isn’t feasible. Not all schools are going to want to be up front about it, and there is no way to make sure that they are. You say that reputable schools will, and I am a case in point where a reputable school failed to do so. There is just no way to make sure of this. Common sense.
If the government let people come here, interview, decide on a job, and then take the job without having to fly out to get another visa (EXPENSIVE) it would be a lot more civilized and a lot more logical.
The current system with the visitor visa is actually exactly like what you suggested. It would just be nice if they would call it something like an “all purpose visa” or something like that. This way, teachers wouldn’t have to tell a white lie on their visa application before coming here.
[quote=“Taiwaner”]
The current system with the visitor visa is actually exactly like what you suggested. It would just be nice if they would call it something like an “all purpose visa” or something like that. This way, teachers wouldn’t have to tell a white lie on their visa application before coming here.[/quote]
The visitor visa system isn’t “exactly like” what I suggested. What I said would be civilized and logical is: coming to Taiwan to apply at different companies, choosing a job, and then transferring to a resident visa without leaving the country. To get a visitor visa, you need paperwork showing that you are going to sign on with a company BEFORE you come. If you want to look around at different jobs, you have to get a landing visa, scramble for a job within the thirty-day limit, and then take your job paperwork outside of Taiwan to get your visitor visa. Both options are not what I consider civilized or logical.
This process has been circumvented occasionally. Last year, my boyfriend and I came back to TW from some months in Thailand. He was able to get a visitor visa by 1) showing financial resources in the form of a credit card, and 2) not taking the many noes for an answer. I couldn’t show proof, so I couldn’t pull this off.
I also didn’t find a job within the thirty-day landing visa limit, so I left TW almost empty-handed. I’d secured all my banking info, so that I could apply for a visitor visa using my financial resources. The TECO office wasn’t even going to process my visitor visa paperwork until I started crying, saying I was just trying to get back to where I live, and asking why, why, why. Finally they relented and said, “OK, you can pay for the application process (NT$4400 for U.S. citizens gasp), but we can’t guarantee it’ll be accepted - in which case you’ll be out your money. And to warn you, these apps aren’t often approved without job paperwork.”
I didn’t want to have to fly out of TW again - especially since that would have been during Chinese New Year - so I gave them my money.
If they hadn’t approved it, I would have stopped trying to come back here. Even though they did, I was left feeling very upset, used, and wondering why on earth I had to go through that.
From talking to other legal, qualified, experienced teachers, my visa application experience is far from rare. So Taiwan’s visitor visa system is definitely not what I mean by civilized and logical.
And then, of course, I had to pay another NT$4400 for my resident visa. With all the flying, renting hotel rooms, living costs, and visa costs, the savings I had before coming back to TW was gone. And, being a responsible person, I started with a decent amount.
I just realized that I mistook what you said. I thought you were saying that the visitor visa system worked the way I thought would be good. You actually meant that you thought the same as me, right? Sorry about my rant.
edit: Now that I read through your post again, I’m not sure what your opinion of the visitor visa system is. Could you clarify. :help:
Actually Mentapart, almost everything in your post about visitor’s visas is NOT true. It’s really not even something to debate. It’s just FALSE. I’m sorry you went through all of this, but people were giving you very, very wrong information. I’ll try and clarify this for you and other people who are probably pretty confused right now:
Mentapart said:
Actually: That’s EXACTLY THE WAY IT CURRENTLY WORKS. You just need to get a visitor’s visa first, NOT just arrive and use the 30 day courtesy landing visa.
Mentapart said:
That’s not the way it works AT ALL. You can get a visitor’s visa before ever coming to Taiwan. You don’t need anything from a school or Company.
I’m sorry that people gave you such bad information. I feel really badly that you had to go through all of that.
Just so it’s clear: You CAN get a visitor’s visa before you have a job. You don’t need anything from a Company.
As for your comments about the money involved in securing a visa: I agree that it’s expensive, but it’s no different than a lot of other countries. So, in that sense, it’s not fair blame this on Taiwan and say the country is “uncivilized”. It’s a lot of money for Taiwanese to get a working or extended visitor visa to go to the US also. Do you have any concept for how much harder it is for a Taiwanese person to go to the US than it is for us to come here?
By the way, this entire discussion shows why it IS wortwhile to come to Taiwan using a reputable recruiter or through a Company which will walk you through the visa process and everything else. It makes everything so much easier and you have a job waiting for you. It’s fine coming on your own also, but if you do, make sure you do a LOT of research on your own so that you won’t run into problems like Mentapart had.
This assesment is correct…It’s a much bigger hassle to apply (going through this now) when coming in on a landing Visa and then going out for a visitor Visa than simply coming in on a Visitor Visa from the get go.
It means an extra trip to the MOFA, and the applicant going through a lot of hassle when trying to get a Visitor Visa for their second visit. I also discovered that if you come in on a Visitor § type Visa (touring only or visiting family) then it’s harder to apply for your working ARC.
Strong advice for future job seekers…Get the 60 day first, and don’t come in on a Landing Visa!
[quote=“Taiwaner”]Actually Mentapart, almost everything in your post about visitor’s visas is NOT true. It’s really not even something to debate. It’s just FALSE. I’m sorry you went through all of this, but people were giving you very, very wrong information. I’ll try and clarify this for you and other people who are probably pretty confused right now:
You can get a visitor’s visa before ever coming to Taiwan. You don’t need anything from a school or Company.
Just so it’s clear: You CAN get a visitor’s visa before you have a job. You don’t need anything from a Company.
As for your comments about the money involved in securing a visa: I agree that it’s expensive, but it’s no different than a lot of other countries. So, in that sense, it’s not fair blame this on Taiwan and say the country is “uncivilized”. It’s a lot of money for Taiwanese to get a working or extended visitor visa to go to the US also. Do you have any concept for how much harder it is for a Taiwanese person to go to the US than it is for us to come here?
By the way, this entire discussion shows why it IS wortwhile to come to Taiwan using a reputable recruiter or through a Company which will walk you through the visa process and everything else. It makes everything so much easier and you have a job waiting for you. It’s fine coming on your own also, but if you do, make sure you do a LOT of research on your own so that you won’t run into problems like Mentapart had.[/quote]
If everything I said is untrue, then I was very unlucky indeed. But in that case, there’s something I’m confused about. What is the proper way to get a visitor visa if you are coming into the country without a job, and the visa office won’t give you one?
Maybe try telling them that Taiwaner says it’s OK.
Just to clarify, the people giving me this information were the people I was dealing with at the visa office. I guess I shouldn’t go by their information. Sadly, as they are the ones offering Taiwan visas, there really is no other choice.
I agree with Taiwaner that coming through a recruiter is easier than doing it on your own. This does mean you are signing on before you get here. Then, like I said, you don’t get the opportunity to come out and look for yourself. As I am an adult, that is what I prefer to do.
I mentioned the price of the visa because it is a deterrent to coming here, so I don’t understand the purpose of it. The U.S. is not scrambling for people to work there. Taiwan is scrambling for teachers to work here.
Taiwaner has been very lucky if he/she has never experienced visa problems. I’m afraid they are true, whether Taiwaner believes they are or not. No one gave me wrong information, it was what I experienced.
I never called Taiwan " ‘uncivilized’ ". That was Taiwaner’s word. I said the the visa system is not civilized. Please, no slander! I’m just posting what I know.
I’m not really sure what to tell you Mentapart, but the vast majority of teachers who come to Taiwan arrive on a 60 day visitor’s visa.
Mentapart said
[quote]If everything I said is untrue, then I was very unlucky indeed. But in that case, there’s something I’m confused about. What is the proper way to get a visitor visa if you are coming into the country without a job, and the visa office won’t give you one?
Just to clarify, the people giving me this information were the people I was dealing with at the visa office. I guess I shouldn’t go by their information. Sadly, as they are the ones offering Taiwan visas, there really is no other choice. [/quote]
In re-reading your previous post, I see the problem you had in the visa office. They asked you for proof of sufficient bank funds. It seems you couldn’t show that to them at the time. Your boyfriend did have proof of this and was OK. This was the reason for your problems.
Generally (from what I know), they don’t ask for proof of funds, but they can if they want. They do this particularly often if you are applying for a visa in Asia (Hong Kong, Thailand, etc.). If you apply back home, it’s usually easier to secure the 60 day visa.
Essentially (if people are curious as to the rationale), they do this to make sure you have enough money to spend some time in Taiwan and enough money to buy a flight out. Western countries do this and a lot more before allowing foreigners into our countries.
Look, there are a lot of problems with the visa situation in Taiwan. However, as we have discussed throughout this thread, the current visitor visa format isn’t at the forefront of the problems. It’s actually a decent system.
Mentapart said:
That would be fun to try! It might just confuse them into giving someone a visitor visa!
By the way, it’s possible that some people might be saying: If you arrive on a 30 day landing visa, why can’t that be used to get a work permit (ARC)!? Why do you need to have a 60 day visitor’s visa!?
If I had the answer to that, I would be well on my way to understanding the Taiwanese government!! There really isn’t any good reason for it. It’s just the way it is. You need a 60 day visitor’s visa in order for your paperwork to be properly submitted to the Government department. You can only get this visa at an embassy outside of Taiwan.
I hope this was helpful to some people to avoid similar issues!!
[quote=“Taiwaner”]
In re-reading your previous post, I see the problem you had in the visa office. They asked you for proof of sufficient bank funds. It seems you couldn’t show that to them at the time. Your boyfriend did have proof of this and was OK. This was the reason for your problems.
Generally (from what I know), they don’t ask for proof of funds, but they can if they want. They do this particularly often if you are applying for a visa in Asia (Hong Kong, Thailand, etc.). If you apply back home, it’s usually easier to secure the 60 day visa.[/quote]
Yes, they let me after I started crying and begging. Very civilized. If you’re coming in from a country other than your home country, they most certainly will ask for financial resource proof if you don’t have work paperwork. Even if you do come in from your home country, it won’t be handed to you. I got a sixty-day when I came the first time because I knew someone in a visa office in the States. She told me that if it weren’t for her, I wouldn’t have gotten one. I had plenty of money, and she did not lie, just to be clear. I remember my fellow newbie teachers being very jealous of my sixty-day. I was often asked, “How did you get that?” The visa system is not a cake walk. I’m vexed why Taiwaner is defending it.
If anyone wants to discuss this further, I’d be happy to. Feel free to PM me.
Based on your last post, Menta - I too came from the states, and had no trouble at all getting my 60 day visitor visa. I filled out the application, paid the fee, and within a week I was ready to fly out to this fine, funny little island. I still think it’s crap that we all have to fudge our entry (show return ticket or itinerary, or job hunt/start working, while officially on a tourist visa that forbids it), but as far as the troubles you seemed to have run into getting a visa to enter Taiwan – I’m shocked. It was a cake walk for me, and I haven’t heard any of my peers facing problems of the kind you describe. This is not intended to refute your words; how can I deny what actually happened to you? This is merely to present the reality that it is far from the norm to run into so many obstacles … so future visitors, don’t give up the hope before the adventure has even begun!!!
I’m really just trying to help people to understand what they need to do to get a visitor visa to come to Taiwan. The point of this thread is “Work Rules for English Teachers”. I know Brian has posted all this information earlier in this thread, but here is a link to a government site which details what you need to get a visitor visa:
If you follow the rules listed, you WILL get a 60 day visitor’s visa. I’m not doubting Mentapart’s story, but it really is this simple for 99% of people.
If you find a good, trustworthy recruiter or school before you come to Taiwan, they will help you go through this entire process before you arrive.
I’m relieved to see that the recent deportations have sparked some interest as far as working legally in Taiwan and knowing the laws before engaging in any unlawful activites. Asking questions will do nothing but help new teachers (and old ones too!!) gain a clearer understanding of their work boundaries and the officials rules they must deal with.
I thank everyone who dares asking questions as there are no silly ones when it involves working and living in a foreign country.
To McLean and all the others, thank you for finding the facts and presenting them to all of us. We shall all learn from our fellow teacher’s mistakes.
The 2005 year is coming to a close soon. Most of us will be celebrating the holidays and welcoming in the new year and wondering what’s new for 2006.
Some words of caution for the English teachers out there.
[b]1. Know what’s legal and illegal working.
Basic rule:[/b] If the place where you are working isn’t on your ARC, you’re working illegally. That means SUBSTITUTION WORK IS ILLEGAL WORK UNLESS YOU HAVE A MARRIAGE BASED ARC or APRC (that means about 99.9% of English teachers in Taiwan are not legal for substitution work).
Corrollary to Basic Rule: You can’t be working unless the CLA has approved your work permit application.
The FAP does check with the CLA as the CLA are often involved with FAP raids.
[b]2. Know what to do if your school is caught in a raid.
Basic rule #1:[/b] The school is not your friend. They and the police will tell you to sign things that will get you deported. They are only looking to save trouble for themselves, not you. In the end, you will most likely be looking at a 5 year do not come back to Taiwan if caught.
Basic rule #2: Hide, run, get out of the premises, be NO WHERE NEAR STUDENTS if you can’t avoid being caught. The law as constituted on illegally working treats you as a common criminal and punishment is severe. Bottom line, the FAP and the law treats an English teacher near a student to be prima facie evidence of illegally teaching if you don’t belong there.
Basic rule #3: Always have the phone number to your Trade Office/Consulate/Embassy in Taiwan. Call them to ask for a English/Chinese translator and interpreter if you’re caught.
At the moment, ML McLean is looking at the viability of after hours/emergency services for teachers caught in raids.
3. If your school offers you a work permit, demand to see the paperwork. Tell them that you would like to see evidence of the application and processing. Schools often do not submit paperwork timely that will impact your stay issues. You MUST be proactive to protect your interests. The schools are unable, or unwilling to comply, though not always their fault.
4. Know the Council of Labor Affairs (cla.gov.tw/). If you’re in Taipei, they do have walk in counseling on the first floor. They do have bi-lingual brochures on work rules and regulations. There are some very sympathetic and helpful CLA employees on the first floor who can guide you.
5. Hoping you don’t get caught. But if you do, contact us, ML McLean.
[quote=“ML McLean”]3. If your school offers you a work permit, demand to see the paperwork. Tell them that you would like to see evidence of the application and processing. Schools often do not submit paperwork timely that will impact your stay issues. You MUST be proactive to protect your interests. The schools are unable, or unwilling to comply, though not always their fault.
[/quote]
Regarding the offer of ARCs and work permits, please understand their difference. You cannot get a work ARC WITHOUT a work permit. Your school MUST apply for a work permit which MUST BE GRANTED before you can get an ARC. Do not be confused about this.
Second. What are the rules for teachers and work permits and hours? The CLA states:
[quote=“Qualifications and Criteria Standards for foreigners undertaking the jobs specified under Article 46.1.1 to 46.1.6 of the Employment Service Act”]
Article 42
Foreigners to be employed as foreign language teachers as specified in Article 46.1.4 in the Act should meet with following requirements. [color=red]The weekly working hours in the teaching-related work should be no less than 14 ( fourteen) hours[/color].
Age: 20 or above.
Graduation certificate from colleges or above.
The language to be taught by the foreign employees should be the national language used in the country specified on the passport of the employees.[/quote]
Please be aware that what happens is that some schools will offer you less than that 14 hours/week minimum (4 weeks in a month = 46 hours or so per month). If the school offers you less than 46 hours of teaching per month, that school CANNOT BY LAW SPONSOR YOU A WORK PERMIT UNLESS THEY LIE ON THEIR APPLICATION TO THE CLA.
There are two common scenarios to this:
You accept, the school sponsors you a work ARC with inflated working hours. You will be taxed according to the hours that permit the school to sponsor you. The net result of this is that your NTD 600+/hour rate is more like NTD 300-400/hour rate.
You accept, the school fails to sponsor you the work permit & ARC as they find out that it’s not possible as per CLA rules and regulations. [color=red]As a result of this, then by law, if you teach at a place that cannot offer you a work permit and put themselves on your ARC, YOU ARE ILLEGALLY TEACHING AND WILL BE DEPORTED IF CAUGHT.[/color]
I assume that this should be 56 hours a month based upon the minimum requirement of 14 hours per week. You might want to edit your post to avoid confusion.
Is this really the way it works?
I agree that some schools will falsify your hours in order to meet the 14 hour minimum requirement, but I am not so sure that the tax office cares. the tax office has it’s own stipulation about the fact that foreigners must earn over a certain amount here in Taiwan, but this has no relationship to how many hours you work. It is a fixed amount and is based upon the concept that this is the minimum that you would have to earn to live here in Taiwan.
If you try to declare an income less than this amount then the tax office will either ask to see proof of other source of income (bank transfers from overseas) or will tax you based upon their minimum taxable amount regardless of your actual earnings.
I agree that some schools will falsify your hours in order to meet the 14 hour minimum requirement, but I am not so sure that the tax office cares. the tax office has it’s own stipulation about the fact that foreigners must earn over a certain amount here in Taiwan, but this has no relationship to how many hours you work. It is a fixed amount and is based upon the concept that this is the minimum that you would have to earn to live here in Taiwan.
If you try to declare an income less than this amount then the tax office will either ask to see proof of other source of income (bank transfers from overseas) or will tax you based upon their minimum taxable amount regardless of your actual earnings.[/quote]
I’m also skeptical. I know several (well, three) guys who have their ARCs sponsored by buxibans for Saturday work only. They also have no trouble at the tax office. I have yet to hear of any sort of coordination between the tax office and other governmental departments. Is this something new?
Also, is there a minimum wage that must be paid to work-permit English teachers? I mean, if a school could offer 10 hours at $1000/hr, but not 20 at $500/hr, would it make a difference how they worded it?
Foreign English teachers are generally restricted by the minimum 14 hours a week rule, whereas other foreign employees tend to be guided by the minimum salary requirement rule.
So I wonder if one cancels the other out, whether they work hand in hand, or whether the minimum hours only applies to foreign teachers and the wage minimum only to other foreigners?
According to the regulations it looks as if the 14 hours a week is specific to teachers which probably makes sense considering that traditionally most teaching jobs have been paid by the hour:
For foreigners hired to perform the foreign language teaching courses referred to in Item 4 of Paragraph 1 to Article 46 of the Act, their teaching-related working hours shall not be less than fourteen hours per week. [/quote]
One reference to minimum limitations upon the earnings of foreigners can be found in Article 8 of the same legislation.
[quote]Article 8
The wages for foreigners who are undertaking the job referred to in Article 4 of the Standards shall not be lower than their counterparts’ average monthly wages recorded in the latest survey and publicly announced by the Central Competent Authority.[/quote]
Interestingly, the following comes directly from the CLA:
[quote]Q48: Why is there restriction on minimum salaries for hiring foreign workers in professional and technical positions?
A48: The Government is to protect our nationals’ employment opportunities and prevent against employers from hiring foreign blue collars workers in the name of white collars (specialized, or technical workers) Therefore, according to the law , employers are required to pay foreign white collar workers with minimum salaries at the least. According to paragraph 8 of “Qualifications and Reviewing Criteria for Foreigners Employed to Work under Section 1 to Section 6, Sub-Paragraph 1, Article 46 of Employment Service Act”, foreign workers who are employed in specialized and technical positions are not allowed to be paid below do average salaries. as published in the latest the monthly issue of Average Pays & Salaries for Industry and Service Business Professionals. The salary standard is the monthly average for domestic professionals (which amounts to 47,971 dollars currently), In other words, if employers hire foreign workers, their salaries should be paid according to the above standard. [/quote]
My understanding is that the 14 hour a week rule is based upon the concept that earning an average wage of let’s say NTD500 per hour, this is the minimum number of hours that the CLA considers a teacher would need to earn to live in Taiwan. So thats a minimum of NTD28,000 per month.
So there seems to be a bit of a contradiction here. Foreigners cannot earn less than locals according to the law (as this may take jobs from locals if cheap foreign labor was brought into Taiwan). The average local salary for professionals per month according to the CLA is NTD47,971. Yet foreign teachers (I assume that we are classified as professionals) are only required to earn half of this minimum wage!
Closer to Maoman’s question is the following:
What would happen however if a school was paying NTD1,000 an hour but was only able to offer 7 hours a week. Ultimately they are offering the same amount of money per month, but they don’t meet the 14 hour a week minimum requirement. My guess is that in order to get past the CLA the contract would need to state 14 hours a week at NTD500 an hour, but can anyone confirm this? Could the school argue that NTD1,000 an hour, seven hours a week still meets the minimum wage requirement?
Having re-read ML’s post I can now see that the ‘taxed’ refers to what the school withholds in tax, not necessarily what the tax office requires in payment.
However, in this case, and providing that you were here for the 183 days in that tax year, you would still get most of that back, so it wouldn’t be such a big impact at all. Also this is done at the school level and would become evident with your first pay slip at which time you could explain that you do not agree to them taking the tax off the stated number of hours but instead only your actual number of hours. The school has falsified a document and handed this to the government so I think that they would want to agree with your terms!
In one of the first posts in thsis thread ML McLean said :
[color=red]Basic rules of thumb:
You need a work permit to work in Taiwan. What that means is anything that you do for a business, regardless of it paid or non-paid work, must be authorized by a work permit and must be on your work ARC. [/color]
I’d like to bring up the topic of students working in Taiwan, that is, language students enrolled at an approved university* studying Chinese for more than 10 hours a week, who enter on an extendable Visitor visa.
When I came to Taiwan last year and studied at Shi Da in Taipei, I was visited by the local representative of the Foreign Affairs Police near where I was living in Yong He (he came to my flat). To cut a long story short, he confirmed that as a student on a visitor visa I was entitled to work for up to 15 hours per week on that visitor visa without applying for any working visa, and that was how the law stood.
So students are allowed to work for up to 15 hours per week. They don’t have the restriction of working for 1 employer that someone on a work-based ARC has.
If you can get by on 15 paid hours a week without breaking the law and enjoy learning Chinese. isn’t this a better way to do things?
(* There have been some posts recently that private language schools liek TLI will not be able to help extend visas past April 2006 due to a change in the law.)
