Work Rules For English Teachers

Um, yeah … It might work out but it might not.

[quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”]Also worth pointing out that [color=red]
The address on your ARC and work permit must be the same address that you physically work at and it is the only address you’re allowed to work at.
[/color][/quote]

What if you have multiple permits as the OP stated? Then will all addresses be on the ARC?

[quote=“Blackman”][quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”]Also worth pointing out that [color=red]
The address on your ARC and work permit must be the same address that you physically work at and it is the only address you’re allowed to work at.
[/color][/quote]

What if you have multiple permits as the OP stated? Then will all addresses be on the ARC?[/quote]

When I taught in buxibans a number of years ago, I had my primary work permit provider, where I had 20 hours a week, and they were listed on my ARC. I also had two other secondary work permits for two other branches that i taught at (6 hrs a piece from memory), and they were not listed on my ARC. It would not be a problem for the immigration / labour officials to check if you have multiple permits if they do a raid on your school.

If they raid/visit your school then they have a list with all of the teachers that are allowed to work (primary or secondary work permit) at that school. If you aren’t on that list then there’s trouble. We have a good relationship with our inspector (visits about once/yr) and if we are currently teaching he has just asked that the secretary collect our ARC’s to verify our ID and we don’t even have to talk to him. One time a teacher forgot his wallet and the inspector didn’t make a deal of it although that could have been interesting.

Thanks everyone.

I’ve skimmed through the posts in this thread but am unsure if a situation such as mine has been broached in conversation.

I am a foreigner married to a foreigner who will have her APRC within the month (July) I have my ARC off the strength of her ARC, and will renew mine to update it with her APRC after the fact. I have worked on and off here in Taiwan during the past year under the table.

I was recently hired by a prominent private school to teach kindy. I start in August, I’ve signed a contract, and the hiring manager at the school already knows that I do not have a degree. I am in the process of completing my Associates online and will complete it some time later this year, and I already finished and passed the CELTA in April.

My questions are:

Do I have any options other than completing my degree and getting a work permit through the school I will work for? Anything at all? Will I be forced to work under the table until my degree is complete? If they knew this, why would they hire me and have me sign an official contract? I was told another teacher has worked there in a similar situation, so there is precedent, but I’m curious what position this puts me in? How does this changing of status mid-contract (when I presumably attain my associates and apply for the work permit legally) affect the status of the contract itself, my tax situation, etc?

So many questions…

Thank you for any answers this may attract.

If you started a position working under the table then they will want you to continue to work under the table. It may or may not (but probably is) the reason that they hired you. You can hope that the manager would be understanding enough to put you on the payroll for a year in order for you to qualify for your own APRC but I think it’s less than 50/50.

Thank you very much for reading and replying to my post Abacus.

The primary reasons they hired me seem to be: they have high turnover and I have a family and desire to stay in one place for three years minimum; and I have CELTA and many years teaching experience. There are many foreigners at this school, including in management positions, and it is quite prominent. How would they benefit by keeping me under the table? Less salary because I’m making the after tax wage (14,500 less than if I were on the official payroll)? Less paperwork?

I’m luckily not interested in APRC, just mainly curious how the contract I already signed will look, or play, officially if i don’t get a work permit until November or January. Maybe they just pretend i didn’t start work until then?

Thorny…

Just a heads up; Online degrees don’t count in Taiwan. You need to complete a majority of it at a physical university, or you can’t use it to apply it for an ARC. It also needs to be from an approved university in your home country (the Taiwan government has a list, it used to be available online).

Good luck.

Thank you very much for reading and replying to my post Abacus.

The primary reasons they hired me seem to be: they have high turnover and I have a family and desire to stay in one place for three years minimum; and I have CELTA and many years teaching experience. There are many foreigners at this school, including in management positions, and it is quite prominent. How would they benefit by keeping me under the table? Less salary because I’m making the after tax wage (14,500 less than if I were on the official payroll)? Less paperwork?

I’m luckily not interested in APRC, just mainly curious how the contract I already signed will look, or play, officially if I don’t get a work permit until November or January. Maybe they just pretend i didn’t start work until then?

Thorny…[/quote]

They benefit by not paying part of your health insurance premium. In addition it is a kindy and kindy’s can’t directly sponsor work permits. My understanding is that kindy’s really like to hire foreigners that don’t require ARC sponsorship since it reduces the shenanighans needed.

They benefit by not having to report your salary although I have never understood why businesses don’t like tax deductions. Usually they cheat like hell and use tons of personal expenses (like the entire grocery bill and all fuel consumption and every bit of house remodeling as business expenses) but still it is so much easier to not cheat.

You should be interested in an APRC since it gives you open work rights. Right now you can be deported if caught working at a kindy.

I also don’t know you think they will apply for a work permit in November or January. Part of the reason they hired you is that you didn’t need ARC sponsorship. I wouldn’t hold out much hope that they will change your work status (from illegal to less illegal).

Thorny…[/quote]

They benefit by not paying part of your health insurance premium. In addition it is a kindy and kindy’s can’t directly sponsor work permits. My understanding is that kindy’s really like to hire foreigners that don’t require ARC sponsorship since it reduces the shenanighans needed.

They benefit by not having to report your salary although I have never understood why businesses don’t like tax deductions. Usually they cheat like hell and use tons of personal expenses (like the entire grocery bill and all fuel consumption and every bit of house remodeling as business expenses) but still it is so much easier to not cheat.

You should be interested in an APRC since it gives you open work rights. Right now you can be deported if caught working at a kindy.

I also don’t know you think they will apply for a work permit in November or January. Part of the reason they hired you is that you didn’t need ARC sponsorship. I wouldn’t hold out much hope that they will change your work status (from illegal to less illegal).[/quote]

Abacus,

It’s not just a Kindy. It’s a whole franchised school system with a separate Kindy, and entirely English-centric curriculum in a high profile neighborhood that seems to be an long established, known and accepted part of the community fabric considering the parentage of the students who attend. The parents are displeased at the constant turnover, as most of their workers fit the mold you indirectly describe as not being eligible for/not needing a work permit. They can and do directly sponsor work permits. They seem to have reached this rarified space where they are walking a line of legality and illegality.

So, to your point about unnecessary ARC sponsorship being a primary factor in my hire, I would be the only one of 8 at the school presently in this situation (they sponsor everyone else’s ARCs), so there would seem no motivation on their part in that regard. All of us do work afternoons with their elementary section, which is likely how they justify the paperwork, but again their longevity and prominence suggests their accepted/tolerated status as providers of an in-demand service, legality or no.

I’m not interested in APRC because my wife has an APRC and I won’t be here the full 5 years it would take to gain my own APRC and open work rights (in the mean time I’m in the grey area like it or not) nor will I benefit from them after the fact. I’m here 3 more years minimum to finish my U of London degree, 4 years max if I do a distance masters before Phd.

I can see perhaps the health insurance aspect being a factor.
The more I dig into the behind the scenes of this system the more intrigued I am. It’s quite fascinating, and my situation seems singular and the way it gets handled especially particular to the city and school.

Have you noticed or do you know of any recent shift in how any aspect of this industry is handled?

Of course they can directly sponsor work permits but their elementary buxiban can’t sponsor enough work permits to cover all foreigners because they aren’t approved to have that many elementary teachers. There are limits on how many work permits that every buxiban can issue and that is why they probably do not want to consider issuing you one because they don’t have to. You should still ask for one but I think it is unlikely that they will want to do it since it is no benefit to them.

There is no line between legality and illegality. They are using a buxiban (many kindies do this) to sponsor work permits for kindy teachers. It is still 100% illegal to work in the kindy. It isn’t a rarified space because of their longevity and prominence. This doesn’t mean that your kindy isn’t really well run. It is just completely illegal and if you get busted they will shrug their shoulders, pay the fine and do very little to help you with your likely deportation.

There are rumors that the length needed for an APRC will be changed to 3 years but it hasn’t been approved. Right now you are in a shit situation working illegally. An open work permit at least seems to prevent you from getting deported even if it is still illegal (pumpkinslayer(?) had a good thread on his situation a year or two ago).

It might be a nice place to work but you are very, very exposed to having a shitty thing (deportation) happen. One big warning sign that your kindy isn’t as well run as you think is that they have a high turnover of teachers. Things might not be as rosy as you think.

[quote=“aphasiac”]Just a heads up; Online degrees don’t count in Taiwan. You need to complete a majority of it at a physical university, or you can’t use it to apply it for an ARC. It also needs to be from an approved university in your home country (the Taiwan government has a list, it used to be available online).

Good luck.[/quote]

Understood. I transferred 82 credits from a substantial college in my home country to a place where I can finish online for the AA, that also happens to be a substantial college in my home country. I have a couple of courses to do.

[quote=“Abacus”]Of course they can directly sponsor work permits but their elementary buxiban can’t sponsor enough work permits to cover all foreigners because they aren’t approved to have that many elementary teachers. There are limits on how many work permits that every buxiban can issue and that is why they probably do not want to consider issuing you one because they don’t have to. You should still ask for one but I think it is unlikely that they will want to do it since it is no benefit to them.

There is no line between legality and illegality. They are using a buxiban (many kindies do this) to sponsor work permits for kindy teachers. It is still 100% illegal to work in the kindy. It isn’t a rarified space because of their longevity and prominence. This doesn’t mean that your kindy isn’t really well run. It is just completely illegal and if you get busted they will shrug their shoulders, pay the fine and do very little to help you with your likely deportation.

There are rumors that the length needed for an APRC will be changed to 3 years but it hasn’t been approved. Right now you are in a shit situation working illegally. An open work permit at least seems to prevent you from getting deported even if it is still illegal (pumpkinslayer(?) had a good thread on his situation a year or two ago).

It might be a nice place to work but you are very, very exposed to having a shitty thing (deportation) happen. One big warning sign that your kindy isn’t as well run as you think is that they have a high turnover of teachers. Things might not be as rosy as you think.[/quote]

I know that my teaching kindergarten here is decidedly illegal, yet there are schools filled with foreigners blatantly teaching english to kindergarten aged children. And some of them are flourishing, tolerated and supported by the people who send their children to the schools, because of the relationships involved. In this risk heavy environment the nuances of where and who matter when it comes to how an establishment is treated, inspected, or when or whether it is raided. I assume you know that, or disagree. Either way there is nothing more to be said on that matter, unless you have some new bit of ephemera to share.

If there is a business that is illegal yet flourishing out in the open, then there is indeed an area where legality and illegality mix and mingle in what is accepted by those in charge of enforcement. Obviously there are people in positions of power allowing this to occur. Perhaps you’re right that metaphorically its not a line. Call it a grey area. If you think that there is no value to be placed in the longevity and prominence of a place operating in an illegal industry, and the way it’s workers and former workers speak about it, I hear you. I just don’t agree. I think there is quite a lot to be said for longevity and narrative evidence. Another area where not more really need be said between us.

Thank you for the tidbit about possible shortening of the APRC time requirement. Regarding attaining an open work permit, I again hear you, but in my situation the discussion is superfluous, as it in no way addresses the choices I need to make about now, as four years committed to teaching in this capacity is enough for me.

I have no overarching opinion of how this school is run. I wear glasses, but there is no floral tint. I’m one to continually seek out and take in information from all facets. Many folks I know have worked for this school, and I’ve yet to hear an issue that occurred because of the school itself. Mostly issues with not liking the work, interpersonal issues with individuals long gone, issues with dealing with the parents, dealing with the kids, dealing with the liaisons, etc. No bullshit fiddling with ARCs, no raids and deportations. They have a high turnover of teachers for a lot of very plain reasons that are common in the industry, and I have yet to uncover evidence that mistreating (or taking advantage of) teachers is one of them. It’s an interesting institution. They have their ducks in a row. But I’m still looking for new info. New facts. Do you have any?

Thank you again for even reading and offering anything by way of an answer. I can see, upon rereading my initial post, how i just sound like another in a long line of folks asking the same old questions. I get it. That’s all I am through the lens of this forum.

My questions should have been:

Is an ARC gained off a foreign spouses APRC eligible for a work permit? I’ve heard/read alternatively that such a person is not eligible to work/ is eligible to work/must get a different ARC through the place of hire in order to work/doesn’t need to change their ARC in order to get a work permit. A lot of divergent views, even between bureaucratic agencies in Taiwan.

If belief could be suspended for a moment regarding being offered a work permit: how might receiving one months after beginning work play out? What are some issues that could crop up? Tax wise? I agree it isn’t likely that it would be offered during the first contract, but I’m asking for more than the obvious. Do you have any knowledge of a person who continued into a second contract with the same company on a newly attained work permit, and how that may have played out? If you have nothing to add in that regard I understand.

They are not well-worded, I would say. I’m trying to be exact. I know there are other nuances, but I can’t think of them right now. Any thoughts?

cheers.

It is not a gray area even if it is flourishing out in the open. If you search through the threads on here you can find sob stories of foreigners teaching at high end kindies (the ones with foreigners are really expensive) that got raided and the teachers got deported. The school has done really well to convince that they are impervious to being raided and for you to be deported. It doesn’t happen often but it happens and it can happen to any school that has made enemies. I have even heard of former foreign teachers calling immigration and telling them what time to go and where to look for the illegal teachers.

Currently your ARC is sponsored by your spouse on a JFRV. I think you will need to get a different visa (maybe - maybe not) and then a new ARC if you get a work permit. I think you can handle all of this from within Taiwan and not even break your APRC status.

I’m sorry I only know a few people that were working illegally (not my recommendation) with a spousal ARC and were told that this school wouldn’t do a work permit sponsor an ARC. Even if the school sponsors ARC’s for some teachers they still really, really want teachers off the books. But you should try. Does your manager know that your spouse has an APRC instead of an ARC? If they don’t know that your spouse has an APRC then you could say that your spouse is quitting their job in a few months and you need an ARC to sponsor her.

I understand that your motivation may be to steer everyone away from a situation that can turn ruinous in an instant. There is no reason for you to encourage anyone to choose this path. If you are a person that cares about other people, you have every reason to discourage anyone from pursuing this. I respect and appreciate that. As for me, I do not think the school is impervious to being raided, or that I am invincible or invulnerable to deportation, regardless of what other people may say or sell as narrative. The risks inherent are apparent. Regardless of the neutral attitude that I display, I don’t have it in me to feel anything but permanently paranoid. This obviously manifests as good and bad.

If you have ideas on offer regarding income opportunities in-country that bypass this membrane entirely, I am all brain, eyes and ears.

And for the sake of debate— in a landscape wherein the black and white of legal and illegal shifts dependent on what is and is not enforced over time, the graphic representation would be grey, regardless of the word of law as written. The vast majority of the world operates in this way, in this grey. You must have a different interpretation.

I suspect this is the case.

I hear what you are saying about their motivation for having teachers off the books. They do know she has an APRC. I am in an unenviable position.

Thank you, Abacus.

My main argument is that the rarified space that you think this school operates in doesn’t exist. Kindies don’t get busted very often but none of them exist in a tolerated rarified space. For example most of them have a locked security gate. That isn’t for safety reasons but actually so they can delay inspectors and hide the foreign teachers. They know the risk of hiring foreigners but they know that they can charge big money for their classes. Perhaps they get busted and pay a fine. Perhaps the teachers get deported and they have to find new teachers. They still make money.

I don’t have a problem if someone works in kindy or illegally as long as they know that deportations happen. For the most part it seems that people think it won’t happen to them.

But you should ask for a work permit when you get your degree. The online vs physical attendance part is a difficult thing to enforce. As long as the university shows up on the approved list (it’s on the internet somewhere) and the degree doesn’t physically say distance learning then I think you will be okay. The other thing you can try is to tell them that you want to qualify for an APRC in two years (true or false doesn’t matter) and you need a tax record. Perhaps they will play ball.

It depends on who is doing the tolerating— in the form of notifying schools before inspections, delaying inspections, taking bribes, etc. — and what they get out of it. If you are saying that these conditions do not exist and that foreigners teaching kindergarten is in no way tolerated by any segment of the populace with power over allowing them to persist, when I know for a fact that this is exactly what happens for some schools, then nothing more need be said. Push. My colloquial use of the term ‘rarefied’ may be contextual overstatement, but the fact that you understood that I meant ‘tolerated’ suggests my language was effective.

The evidence I’ve gleaned from people who’ve been here for long periods of time suggests to me that where I live, deportation is a very rare occurrence. By rare I mean non-existent during the last decade at schools that run a tight ship. Perhaps there are those whose knowledge and experience justifies their lack of undue worry, just as it seems the knowledge and experience of others may justify the opposite. Though I do not doubt your assertions, I do doubt your expertise extends to categoric knowledge of the deportation history of every county of this island. It’s likely that for the most part people think it won’t happen to them, because for the most part it likely won’t happen to them. I’d love to see the numbers.

This is a silly argument. I have no personal stake in any position. Unless we’re talking about verifiable data, then everyone is just speaking on what they’ve come to know and it’s all inconclusive.

Thank you for this.

cheers.

It’s all tolerated until they have pissed off the wrong business or person. Last winter I had a friend complaining that their school (a big and high priced one) had been visited by inspectors 3 times in one month. The school was always able to hide their foreign teachers but that isn’t what I consider tolerated or whatever word you want to call it. They certainly pay their bribes and get warnings ahead of time but they really pissed off the wrong person and my friend was lucky that she didn’t get caught. It doesn’t happen very often but it does. Your kindy has done very well to make you believe that they are special.

Here is a good thread about a first hand experience about getting busted. The school paid their bribes but the other schools were jealous and probably reported them. forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … pkinslayer

[quote=“Abacus”]It’s all tolerated until they have pissed off the wrong business or person. Last winter I had a friend complaining that their school (a big and high priced one) had been visited by inspectors 3 times in one month. The school was always able to hide their foreign teachers but that isn’t what I consider tolerated or whatever word you want to call it. They certainly pay their bribes and get warnings ahead of time but they really pissed off the wrong person and my friend was lucky that she didn’t get caught. It doesn’t happen very often but it does. Your kindy has done very well to make you believe that they are special.

Here is a good thread about a first hand experience about getting busted. The school paid their bribes but the other schools were jealous and probably reported them. forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … pkinslayer[/quote]

Yes. It is tolerated in practice, though not in the law, and then sometimes it isn’t and some schools will have problems, especially if they do not have the best of relationships with people who have influence over their situation. Some schools certainly have it worse off than others. Thank you for the link you’ve posted, as pumpkinslayer’s tale anecdotally verifies my suspicions about the process and possible reasoning behind a school being particularly targeted.

My opinion of the school I’ll be working for is that its actually typical of corporate schools that attain a certain status in a community, but there is evidence to suggest they have very good relationships with people of influence. If that means they are special, I will leave that for you to judge.

Some of what you have offered has been interesting and helpful, so thank you again.