25k Deduction Leaving Clause

I just arrived in Taiwan on Monday night. I’ve been offered a job with a school in Taichung. The contract they’ve offered me includes a clause saying that if I leave before one year is up, they will deduct 25,000NT from my salary.

I taught in Thailand for three years and thought I’d seen some dodgy schools. But this is the first I’ve ever seen such a scummy clause as this. I haven’t signed the contract yet, but should I insist that this clause be removed?

Is this standard practice in Taiwan, or have I just found an unusually dishonest school?

It’s illegal, but it’s fairly standard practice.

If you came in on a 2 month visa, you should still have plenty of time to look for another school that doesn’t do this, but due to how common it is, you may have no luck.

If you can, try to talk to the foreign teachers who are already there and see what the school is like to work for. If there are no foreign teachers, find out why the last one left and how long he/she worked there.

I have found that by flat-out refusing crap like that my working relationships are less strained. I just tell them that if I quit before the term is up I will have a darn good reason hopefully with some notice in writing and that if I just run they have the option of not paying me.

If the school says “Well, ALL our teachers quit before the contract is up!” then there must be a good reason and maybe you shouldn’t work there.

Bargain. This was a real sticky on one of my jobs and finally I got them down to a 1000 nt deduction a month that they pay back after one year. I was heading for the door before they changed their mind, though.

I find that by playing the negotiations like I am interviewing them I can really smell a good school. “So why do you think you’re a good school to work for? Really, I’d like to see proof of the item you’re talking about…”

Good luck. Stand your ground.

Thanks for the advice, even if it is conflicting :s .

There are seven other foreign teachers there, one of them has been there for at least three years. I’m supposed to replace a teacher that’s been there for two years. The teachers seem to be happy with the place, but I haven’t had a chance to talk to any of them because the owners of the school are always there when I am. I did get a chance to ask one teacher if he had this clause in his contract, he said he couldn’t remember. I guess he probably had it removed, but doesn’t want to tell me because he thinks I’ll mention it to the owners.

I will give this a try. If it is illegal as cfimages says, then I should be able to get them to take it out.

I want to give some more details of the contract and see if you guys can tell me if it sounds ok or not. I really have no idea, but I do know that several things are in blatant contradiction to the advertisement I responded to.

  • 62k per month for 110 hours, up to 65k per month after three months
  • Over 110 hours paid at 600NT per hour
  • No paid personal holidays, just unpaid 2 weeks per year, after the first six months
  • Chinese New Year unpaid, 9 days (is this normal?!? that’s a long time!)
  • Health Check paid for, but I pay for ARC (1,000) and Resident Visa (3,000?)
  • Health Insurance, but I pay 20%
  • 6% tax
  • Work week Monday-Saturday (ad said no weekends)
  • Deduction for any sick days

Compared to what I had in Thailand, this contract seems pretty awful. But I really only have enough money to last until about Jan 10, so I need to get a job ASAP. Does this contract sound ok for now?

Thanks again for your help, it is GREATLY appreciated.
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- 62k per month for 110 hours, up to 65k per month after three months

Not too bad. Take into consideration that most of your Taiwanese counterparts only get a raise of 1000 NT a year, if they are lucky. A 3000 NT raise is not bad.

- Over 110 hours paid at 600NT per hour

Not often will you find a school that pasy for overtime.

- No paid personal holidays, just unpaid 2 weeks per year, after the first six months

After your first year they are obligated by law to offer paid time off. But doing things by the book is not the norm here.

- Chinese New Year unpaid, 9 days (is this normal?!? that’s a long time!)

Not sure about this, but my wife says it should be paid.

- Health Check paid for, but I pay for ARC (1,000) and Resident Visa (3,000?)

Normal

- Health Insurance, but I pay 20%

I have no health insurance through my school…school doesnt even offer it (I am staying because I love the work enviroment).

- Work week Monday-Saturday (ad said no weekends)

Bring the Ad and negotiate this.

- Deduction for any sick days

Illegal. They need to pay you half days for sick days. (up to a certain amaount of days)

Compared to what I had in Thailand, this contract seems pretty awful.

Keep looking if your gut says no. There are a lot of options out there. Where have you been looking for job postings?

[quote]- 62k per month for 110 hours, up to 65k per month after three months

  • Over 110 hours paid at 600NT per hour
  • No paid personal holidays, just unpaid 2 weeks per year, after the first six months
  • Chinese New Year unpaid, 9 days (is this normal?!? that’s a long time!)
  • Health Check paid for, but I pay for ARC (1,000) and Resident Visa (3,000?)
  • Health Insurance, but I pay 20%
  • 6% tax
  • Work week Monday-Saturday (ad said no weekends)
  • Deduction for any sick days [/quote]

-The pay sounds about right for someone with no connections. 60K for 100 hours is about the norm.
-Over 110 hours @ 600NT sounds a little low. I’ve never worked that many hours so I’ve no idea if it’s standard.
-CNY unpaid doesn’t sound right. I get paid for CNY (and all other national hols and typhoon days), but I’ve heard of people who don’t get paid for them.
-Health check, visa etc. It’s almost 3 years since I had to renew these, so I’m not sure who paid. I think I paid for the health check (I just wandered down to the hospital one mornign and had it done), and ARC, but my boss paid for the visa. I think.
-Health insurance - not sure about %age. I pay about 400NT a month, my boss pays the rest.
-Tax - tax is confusing because it’s more for the first 6 months. You might want to check that out. I think it’s 20% for the first 183 days, then 6% for the second 183 days. Averages out to around 10-12% over the year.
-Work Sat. I don’t and refuse to. Some places offer no choice however.
-Sick days - no pay for anyone. It’s the same for the TW staff. EDIT. According to Quarters, this is wrong. Check it out for sure. I’m going to - I had 3 days off last month with pneumonia so it’d be nice to get paid half instead of nothing.

If they’ve been there for longer than a year, then it’s probably a decent place to work. So the NT$25K shouldn’t matter - it doesn’t sound like it’s so poorly run that everyone wants to quit after 2 months.

Maybe your offer is slightly on the low end, but you shouldn’t be expecting a whole lot more considering that right now isn’t the hiring season and that foreigners are a dime a dozen in Taichung.

If it doesn’t compare favorably with Thailand, well, that would make me question even staying here.

Instead of fretting about a couple of thousand NT per month, I think a much more important factor is the general work environment: how much homework would you have to grade, what would you have to do for lesson preparation, how reasonable is the boss, etc. There are plenty of 100 hour/60k jobs that are comfy and don’t require any extra work and there are plenty of 100 hour/63k jobs that will make you tear your hair out.

Sounds OK to me. Negotiate the Saturday. Sounds like an established school that won’t be asking you to make the program for them, anyway.

Thanks for all the replies. It sounds like the deal may not be as bad as I was thinking, even if they are clearly dishonest people.

[quote]- Work week Monday-Saturday (ad said no weekends)

Bring the Ad and negotiate this.

  • Deduction for any sick days

Illegal. They need to pay you half days for sick days. (up to a certain amaount of days) [/quote]
Unfortunately I was not very smart about this. I didn’t save the ad, and now the ad is no longer online. But I only applied for jobs that explicitly said “no weekends.” I tried negotiating this and they said it was impossible, all teachers work on Saturday. The reason according to them is that some of the classes meet Wednesdays and Saturdays, so they need the same teacher. I asked if I could have Mondays off instead, and they gave the same reply (pair Monday-Thursday).

Sick days aren’t really a big to deal to me as I rarely, if ever, get sick enough to miss work. Three years in Thailand it only happened one day.

I asked them explicitly about the rate of tax, and they very clearly stated it would be 6%. They said it would automatically be deducted from my salary each month, and at the end of the year I could probably get a refund. They did mention that there are different tax brackets according to income. At 65k, I’d have to pay 6%, but some of the teachers (working overtime) are paying upwards of 10 or 12%. They didn’t mention anything about the first 183 days having a different rate. 20% sounds absurd!

Yeah this is pretty important, as 9 days is a lot. I don’t want to lose 20k+ from my February salary. But I already tried to negotiate this, and they said it was impossible. Other holidays and typhoon days are paid. The contract said otherwise, but I pointed it out and they tried to act like it was a typo.

This is a very good point. There seems to be almost no preparation, as it’s a cram school and in the classes I’ve observed the teacher just reads some text from the book and goes over some vocabulary. It’s not really teaching at all, just acting like a clown. Not sure how much homework needs to be corrected, but I can’t see that it would be overwhelming with 6-12 students per class.

Unfortunately the Saturday seems to be non-negotiable. But yes they do seem to have a full curriculum in place, requiring minimal preparation from the teachers. Not sure if that’s good or bad, as in the past I’ve enjoyed having the freedom to do as I pleased.

I have just one more question. The worst part about this school is that the hours are pretty scattered, with two mornings required per week and afternoons-evenings everyday. So, it’d be pretty much impossible to get a side gig going. I much prefer freelance but as I’m so new to Taiwan and don’t have much of a safety net in the bank I think it’ll have to wait a few months.

If I worked for this school for say 4-5 months then found something better, is it possible to transfer my ARC to a different school? How would I go about doing it? Is there any danger in being blacklisted?

Thanks again for all your help.

I asked them explicitly about the rate of tax, and they very clearly stated it would be 6%. They said it would automatically be deducted from my salary each month, and at the end of the year I could probably get a refund. They did mention that there are different tax brackets according to income. At 65k, I’d have to pay 6%, but some of the teachers (working overtime) are paying upwards of 10 or 12%. They didn’t mention anything about the first 183 days having a different rate. 20% sounds absurd![/quote]It’s not up to them really, it’s up to the tax office. The final taxation rate after you’ve worked there for over six months in a tax year, and including future tax refunds, probably will be about 6%. But every foreigner is taxed at 20% for the first six months within a calendar year (so June - November counts, but November - December doesn’t count for anything and you have to start counting again in January). And companies normally withhold 10% after that. After working for the first full year, you get quite a substantial tax refund the following year.

Re the morning hours. At least one day with morning hours will be between M-F. As all kids, from grade 1 up are at regular school until at least noon every day, that sounds like you might have to teach a kindergarten class (unless the morning is for office work). Be aware that teaching kindergarten is illegal in Taiwan, and people have been deported for it.

This issue of 20% taxation is highly discouraging. I’m wondering why I hadn’t heard of this before.

[quote]
Re the morning hours. At least one day with morning hours will be between M-F. As all kids, from grade 1 up are at regular school until at least noon every day, that sounds like you might have to teach a kindergarten class (unless the morning is for office work). [/quote]
I was in the school on Tuesday morning, and the students I saw were adults and what looked like university or possibly high school students. There were no children present.

Anyway I’m going to the school this evening, I think I’m going to demand paid CNY and the removal of the 25k clause, otherwise I’m walking.

Well, they refused on both counts. Guess it’s time to hit the streets! Ironically, I was able to find their ad on another site after our “negotiations” were finished. Wish I’d had it earlier to call them on their lies!

Just for fun, here are the three big lies from the ad:

# 25+ hours/week. Afternoons & Evenings
Well, it was actually 26 hours per week as a minimum, and they refused to specify a maximum number of hours in the contract. Basically I’d be expected to work any and all classes they presented me with.

As for “afternoons and evenings,” at least 2 mornings per week were mandatory, along with Saturdays, and during peak season probably every morning would have been demanded. Basically, to them “afternoons and evenings” means that you could be required to work any class anywhere from 10.30am to 9.30pm, Monday-Saturday.

# Paid National holidays
But they won’t pay Chinese New Year! Aren’t there only like four other national holidays in the whole year?

# The room we offer includes A/C, a fridge, a washing machine, internet access and so on.
There’s no room available at all and hasn’t been for at least a year. Not sure why they keep putting it in their ads. And no, there is no housing allowance either.

In addition, they swore till the end that I only needed to pay 6% tax. They claimed it was because their accountant had “powerful connections.” Are all schools this crooked?

Barfomcgee, when you’ve had the chance to look at other jobs, I think you’ll realise that the one you were offered wasn’t bad.

It sounded as if you’d get plenty of work there. (I’m guessing that it was an hourly rate and the 62/65k mentioned was a guaranteed minimum). Having full-time hours at one place is a very useful thing these days, with the government getting tighter on second jobs.

Quarters’s wife was obviously thinking about salaried jobs. The vast majority of English teaching jobs are paid on an hourly basis. That actually works out better for most people, as salaried jobs often have a much lower equivalent hourly rate. The tradeoff is that you don’t get paid holidays or sick days. I’m surprised that that school even offered you four days paid holiday per year.

The 20% tax rate is not up to the school, as I explained. But perhaps I didn’t explain clearly enough that you can claim a lot of that back after you’ve completed the minimum time requirement. So the final rate after the rebate does work out at around 6-8%.

As for the dishonesty in the ad, well, it’s not great but it happens. At least it seems that they’re upfront about the conditions when you talk to them personally. And, as others said, the penalty clause in the contract is fairly standard, though illegal. (Actually, I wonder why more schools don’t get round the illegality issue by offering a bonus dependent on contract completion instead.)

Hi joesax, thanks for the reply. Having looked at a few other jobs, I reluctantly agree that this contract was not terrible. However, from the ad I was expecting something with block hours and ALL paid holidays, not a 10am-9pm split-shift with 9 days missing from February. I didn’t really ask them many questions before I came, because I didn’t expect them to offer a contract so different from the ad.

So when I arrived on Monday night and they shoved a contract under my nose on Tuesday expecting me to sign without even observing a class, I was very reluctant and hesitant to trust them. Not to mention the fact that I caught them lying to me on several occasions just in the first two days.

I wouldn’t even say they were upfront about the conditions in person, because they wanted me to sign the contract without even really explaining the working conditions at all. It was only when I read the contract and started asking them questions that they reluctantly gave some information.

After your comments about taxation, I did some more reading on Buxiban.com and I do understand what you’re saying about the end-of-year refund bringing the overall rate to 6%. However, this school said they would only withhold 6% from the start, and not the required 20%. This made me suspect that they wouldn’t actually be paying my taxes in full. If I stayed for the whole year I guess there wouldn’t really be a problem, but if for some reason I left before the year was up, I might find that I owe a bit of money to the tax office.

I guess my expectations of Taiwan may have been higher than they should have. I really hope I don’t later come to regret my decision regarding this school. Thanks again for all the replies.

[quote=“barfomcgee”]After your comments about taxation, I did some more reading on Buxiban.com and I do understand what you’re saying about the end-of-year refund bringing the overall rate to 6%. However, this school said they would only withhold 6% from the start, and not the required 20%. This made me suspect that they wouldn’t actually be paying my taxes in full. If I stayed for the whole year I guess there wouldn’t really be a problem, but if for some reason I left before the year was up, I might find that I owe a bit of money to the tax office.[/quote]I see what you mean now. It is cause for concern that they said you’d only be paying 6% from the start. Makes you wonder how much, if any, tax they’d be paying on your behalf. You might end up with tax office hassles even after a year.

[quote=“barfomcgee”]I guess my expectations of Taiwan may have been higher than they should have. I really hope I don’t later come to regret my decision regarding this school.[/quote]It’s a tricky one. But it sounds like it didn’t feel right anyway. Given the pressure and the vague answers to some of your questions, I can see why you backed off from signing, and I think I’d have done the same in that situation. If you’re not really strapped for cash then it won’t hurt to look around a bit more.

There are big differences between “hourly” workers and “full time”. Full time workers get a bit less pay, but are payed for days off and sick days and other stuff and have to work about 24/7.
Hourly workers (thats you) get payed for only work hrs (and usually only the hrs a student is in front of you) and have to work 24/7 also. You are a payed slave.

The “split” shift is the norm. You work 2 or 3 hrs in morning (often in a kindergarten in another building) then 3 hrs plus in the evening. With 1.5 to 3 hrs off at lunch and often no afternoons on Tuesday.

Avoiding work on Sat is a must, for sanity sake!
More important than the deduction (and even the tax) issue are the extra hrs many schools make you work. These can be called prep, arriving 1/2 hr early, PTA, or “shows”. These suck!

Work 24/7? I don’t think so. I get paid hourly at all my jobs and rarely take much time off, so it works out for me. Every job that I have ever worked at for salary found creative ways to NOT pay me for sick days, special performances and/ or other stuff. I was WAY more of a slave when I was salaried. They could throw extra classes at me and change my hours whenever they wanted, despite me having other obligations.

I don’t get paid for prep, but other than a few minutes time making or copying a worksheet, looking something up or using something I have already prepared a long time ago, I don’t usually have to spend too much time doing this. I have to prepare as part of my job, so I don’t expect to get paid for this and they shouldn’t expect me to spend oodles of time doing it anyway. I have heard that “paid prep” is a thing of the past, anyway.

Hourly pay is much better, in my opinion. I don’t spend any time looking at my paycheck wondering why I seem to be making 420 an hour because I only got paid for 1/2 of the christmas show and one of the PTA meetings while manditorily showing up 20 minutes early and writing communication books in non-class time while getting deducted for this and that and lets not forget unpaid staff meetings and outings and of course the obligitatory deductions just in case I want to quit being ripped off and leave hell I work an hour and get paid for an hour I’m teaching run-on sentences and punctuation what do you think?

[quote=“canucktyuktuk”]Work 24/7? I don’t think so. I get paid hourly at all my jobs and rarely take much time off, so it works out for me. Every job that I have ever worked at for salary found creative ways to NOT pay me for sick days, special performances and/ or other stuff. I was WAY more of a slave when I was salaried. They could throw extra classes at me and change my hours whenever they wanted, despite me having other obligations.

I don’t get paid for prep, but other than a few minutes time making or copying a worksheet, looking something up or using something I have already prepared a long time ago, I don’t usually have to spend too much time doing this. I have to prepare as part of my job, so I don’t expect to get paid for this and they shouldn’t expect me to spend oodles of time doing it anyway. I have heard that “paid prep” is a thing of the past, anyway.[/quote]I suppose that the amount of prep time you need depends on the job. I find that for the stuff I do, a 1:2 prep:class time ratio is about right. But anyway, we agree that paid-by-hour rates are much higher than the equivalent hourly rate for a salaried job. And they have to be seen as including prep time, holiday pay, etc.

Ok, I seem to have found another job. We’re still negotiating the pay, but how does this sound:

3-9pm Monday-Friday, teaching 5-9 with 3-5 as office hours (lesson prep, etc…)
total 20 teaching hours per week
Paid holidays, including chinese new year
6 days paid vacation in first year, or 18 days unpaid (my choice)
Pay – they offered 50k to start, up to 55k after 2 months
I requested 55k to start, up to 60k after 2 months. They’re checking with head office and will get back to me today.
15k deduction if I leave before one year

How does this deal sound? I just had a much better feeling in this school and didn’t feel like anyone was trying to trick me. Also, though the pay is less there are less teaching hours and they all fall together in the evening.

Even if they don’t increase the salary to 60k, does this sound like a good deal?