So far, correspondents say, it appears likely that the vote will again fail. Most DPP members seem to be loyal to their leader, and the party has said it will punish any legislators who vote against Mr Chen. [/quote]
Looks like Nov 24 is the next recall vote in the LY. 3rd times the charm as they say.
But the quote above caught my eye. Is it customary of the DPP to punish members for not toeing the party line? I always thought the spirit of democracy was for the representative to represent his constituents, not the party. Why the hypocrisy from the party that claims to be agents of democracy on Taiwan?
So it can be argued that the DPP LY are not supporting CSB out of respect, but out of fear that he will punish them.
Well, most of them where elected because they where DPP, so they owe respect to it.
Anyway, another bad use of public money. There should be a way of cutting their sallaries if they come up with these things that are condemned to fail anyway.
DPP LY members are more loyal to their party than their constituents which is contrary to the spirit of democracy where LY members are suppose to represent the interest of their district.
sorry, they are voted because they are DPP, not because of their lovely faces. DPP is their milky cow, and you don’t want your milky cow to go away, do you?
Its hardly hypocrisy. Those members who find themselves at odds with party lines can always run as an independent in the next election. If they depend on the party for finance and support, I think a sense of loyalty to party unity is very important.
Thats especially important when the opposition are enforcing the very same discipline you seem only to have problem with in the green camp.
The recall has become so partisan an issue, I think the DPP has made the right call. Let the judiciary finish its works first. CSB has promised to step down on conviction at the first instance, thats enough for the party. Now why would they allow party members to participate in the opposition’s very partisan attack designed to hurt the DPP as much as the president?
Also as a sign that its a correct political move, the TSU has decided for now to close rank with them against the blue offensive. It seems they have had a nut on their hand for awhile. Good riddance.
It seems that this third recall motion will not get the 2/3 majority it requires. Do you think the Economist.com is right about that?
[quote] Sufficient immunity
Nov 9th 2006
From The Economist print edition
A wounded president fights on
…
In a televised speech two days later Mr Chen said the allegations felt like a “political death sentence”. But he delivered a lengthy denial of any corruption by himself or his wife. He said he would resign if his wife was convicted, but her trial could well take many months. The speech appears to have helped prevent a rebellion against the president by legislators from his Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) and its allies. Opposition parties this week launched their third attempt this year to dismiss the president. This requires the support of two-thirds of legislators followed by a majority of voters in a plebiscite with a turnout of at least 50%. The legislature is expected to vote on this later this month, but the opposition looks highly unlikely to muster enough support.
Mr Chen’s popularity, however, appears wrecked. And the strength of his party’s support for him faces critical tests in the coming months. On December 9th the biggest cities, Taipei and Kaohsiung, will conduct mayoral elections. The main opposition party, the Kuomintang (KMT), says it regards these as a vote of confidence in Mr Chen. [/quote]
[quote=“W.E.B. Du Bois”]It seems that this third recall motion will not get the 2/3 majority it requires. Do you think the Economist.com is right about that?
[quote] Sufficient immunity
Nov 9th 2006
From The Economist print edition
A wounded president fights on
…
In a televised speech two days later Mr Chen said the allegations felt like a “political death sentence”. But he delivered a lengthy denial of any corruption by himself or his wife. He said he would resign if his wife was convicted, but her trial could well take many months. The speech appears to have helped prevent a rebellion against the president by legislators from his Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) and its allies. Opposition parties this week launched their third attempt this year to dismiss the president. This requires the support of two-thirds of legislators followed by a majority of voters in a plebiscite with a turnout of at least 50%. The legislature is expected to vote on this later this month, but the opposition looks highly unlikely to muster enough support.
Mr Chen’s popularity, however, appears wrecked. And the strength of his party’s support for him faces critical tests in the coming months. On December 9th the biggest cities, Taipei and Kaohsiung, will conduct mayoral elections. The main opposition party, the Kuomintang (KMT), says it regards these as a vote of confidence in Mr Chen. [/quote][/quote]
Yes if you re referring to the chance of the recall motion. TSU are backing DPP.
Bollocks… the same happens in the USA. republicans are supposed to toe party line. Thats what being in a politacal party is.
Why the hypocracy about the supposed liberty that the USA espouses. Full of shite. Thats why the republicans got thrashed in the US elections. A dishonest government who believes in jailing people without trial for years on end, has lost all of it’s civial rights cases abouts these Gitmo issues in the last several years.
Please AC, you should stop with your own hypocrqacy first in the USA let alone about another country you’ve never lived in.
And where is the Republican Party today…
Tuesday’s mid-term elections result illustrates exactly what happens when members of a party lose touch with the public and toe the party line.
Any politician in the USA that mentioned “stay the course” in their campaign got their ass handed back to them by Democratics with campaigns that had no platform besides “we’re not Bush.” Which is kind of weak in my opinion in terms of having a good platform.
Same situation on Taiwan, the public is so fed up with CSB and his antics. All the Blues have to do is run a simple campaign of “we’re not CSB” and they are guarantee a landslide now. Even in deep Green districts.
I even supported the ejection of LTH and James Soong from the KMT party years ago to make way for improvement. When you have crappy leadership the only thing to do is a purge and not hold onto it to let it persist like a cancer.
I think James Soong split from the party himself voluntarily after failing to secure kMT nominaion for presidency in 2000. Formally yes the party expelled him, but I doubt he didnt see that coming after running as an independent. But even though Soong might be a bad leader, KMT expelled him for disloyalty.
I find the proposition that KMT are in the habit of purging in order to improve bizarre and downright inaccurate . They certainly kept Lien Chan around long enough, made him an honorary chairman for life even. That hardly exemplifies commitment to good leadership!
And how about Ma Ying jeou sheltering Hsu Tsa-li, the commissioner of Keelung until the latter’s actual conviction forced Ma to expel him?
Same situation with pro KMT independent Wu Chun Li in Tai tung.
I think James Soong split from the party himself voluntarily after failing to secure kMT nominaion for presidency in 2000. Formally yes the party expelled him, but I doubt he didnt see that coming after running as an independent. But even though Soong might be a bad leader, KMT expelled him for disloyalty.[/quote]
Soong was kicked out for starting his own campaign without party permission.
[quote]ACdropout belched
But the quote above caught my eye. Is it customary of the DPP to punish members for not toeing the party line? I always thought the spirit of democracy was for the representative to represent his constituents, not the party. Why the hypocrisy from the party that claims to be agents of democracy on Taiwan?[/quote]
In democracies, it is customary for political parties to enforce party discipline. The legislator was elected from a political party. Presumably his constituents realized that and voted for her at least partly for that reason. Presumably constituents realize that Party discipline must be enforced, otherwise the legislator would stand for nothing, and the voters would not know what they were voting for.
I assume that you have the relevant poll data from a methodologically sound, non-partisan poll that supports your claim that the DPP is hypocritical? What? You don’t? Imagine, you talking without any support to back it up. That just never happens.
Let me ask again: do you have the relevant poll data from a methodologically sound, non-partisan poll that supports your claim that the DPP is hypocritical?
There is, BTW, no conflict between the two options you laid out above.
So answer the question. Or were you just talking out your anti-democracy ass, as usual.
It think the DPP are definitely acting in an anti-democratic spirit at this point. CSB with a public approval rating in the mid-teens you would expect LY members to be about the same.
If the LY body reflected the democracy, approximately 15% of the members would support CSB. That not being the case just illustrates just how out of touch with the DPP and TSU members are with public sentiment.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]It think the DPP are definitely acting in an anti-democratic spirit at this point. CSB with a public approval rating in the mid-teens you would expect LY members to be about the same.
If the LY body reflected the democracy, approximately 15% of the members would support CSB. That not being the case just illustrates just how out of touch with the DPP and TSU members are with public sentiment.[/quote]
You mean if the LY reflected AC’s simpleminded idea of what “democracy” means it might support CSB’s removal…but even that six-grade understanding of course would be contingent on AC offering anything like a methodologically sound, non-partisan poll to support his claims.
But I guess there isn’t one, since being an anti-Taiwan, anti-democracy troll means never having to support what you say…
Not to mention your ridiculous notion that low approval = desire to remove. Unfortunately the Taiwanese electorate is not as simpleminded as you are. Even the pro-Blue polls cited by ESWN (zonaeuropa.com/200611.brief.htm#031) don’t show majority support for a Chen resignation immediately. And those are from the pro-Blue side, so naturally they are biased.
So once again, what methodologically sound, non-partisan poll data can you show that supports your claim?
With only 127 LY members that may vote for the recall motion, if the DPP toe the party line, that only represents 58% of the LY. The poll you cite has a dissatisfaction rating of 66% for CSB that is an 8% margin.
Not to mention the poll also reports 36% of DPP members believing CSB should just quit. That hardly reflects how DPP LY members are voting, since 100% of them are not supporting the recall motion at this time. It would take about 34 DPP members to vote against the party line for an accurate reflection of reality to occur.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]With only 127 LY members that may vote for the recall motion, if the DPP toe the party line, that only represents 58% of the LY. The poll you cite has a dissatisfaction rating of 66% for CSB that is an 8% margin.
Not to mention the poll also reports 36% of DPP members believing CSB should just quit. That hardly reflects how DPP LY members are voting, since 100% of them are not supporting the recall motion at this time. It would take about 34 DPP members to vote against the party line for an accurate reflection of reality to occur.[/quote]
Never mind. I can see that it is impossible for you to provide support for anything you say.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Same situation on Taiwan, the public is so fed up with CSB and his antics.[/quote] Speaking of antics, the pan blue media started the campaign to sway public opinion against CSB long before the investigation was even underway or especially came up with anything concrete. The media coverage of the depose Chen campaign gave a distorted picture of public opinion as it focused on one specific part of Taipei City. Although the cable news covered the event 24/7 and made it look as if chaos reigned in Taipei that wasn’t the actual case at all - for 98% of Taipei, life went on totally as normal. The public was actually getting fed up with the campaign’s method of ‘trial by public opinion’ as polls began to show. This is actually what polarized things along blue/green lines even before the indictments were handed down.