A Change in the American Character

Something which I’ve always admired about Americans is their optimism and their lack of animosity towards the rich. Where a cynical Brit might see a ‘rich bastard’ driving a nice set of wheels, the American would see a nice car and aspire to to be behind the wheel.
The American Dream.
But things have changed.
And I can’t really blame people. Phrases like “the American dream” and “only in America” seem to ring hollow; social mobility is higher in many other countries. The rich are wealthier than ever, and what they ‘produce’ seems of less value to the country. Compare Ford producing a real product and providing working class men with high-paying jobs with the modern financial wizards and outsourcers.
In this climate Romney was in many ways a poor choice for the GOP.

Best political ad during the recent US election:

[quote=“ChewDawg”]Best political ad during the recent US election:

youtube.com/watch?v=UnX7TNFIELg[/quote]

1-when you use ‘slippery slope’ in your argument, you have already failed.
2-calling the US ‘Socialist’ is wrong.
3-equating US government policy with COMMUNIST Hungary is also wrong.

That commercial is bullshit hackery designed to scare people, not surprised you like it though.

When did the right decide it is perfectly logical to say that Democratic policies are Socialism, and Socialism = Authoritarian Communism? And you wonder why you guys are out of touch. :roflmao:

Just to make things absolutely clear for the likes of Chew Dawg and myself who find it confusing to call the nationalization of health care, the villainization of capitalists and capitalism, bigger government, amped up wealth redistribution etc. “democracy” maybe the U.S. should henceforth advertise itself as the People’s Democratic Republic of America or something similar.

That way there won’t be any further excuse for confusing Obamanomics with socialism.

No, I don’t think anyone is calling those policies “democracy”. It’s just that the majority of voters happen to support those policies, so in a democracy those policies get implemented (one hopes- I still have great faith in the ability of Obama and the Democrats to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.)

[quote=“ChewDawg”]Best political ad during the recent US election:

youtube.com/watch?v=UnX7TNFIELg[/quote]
I agree it’s the best! This type of ad keeps idiots who buy into such rhetoric out of power. Keep ‘em comin’, ya fahkin nutters.

If the GOP is going to have a chance of getting back in they need to somehow figure out how to appeal to a wider demographic. Angry old white people aren’t going to be enough anymore. They’re in a tricky situation.

I don’t think they need to worry about anything with the younger generation. With Rubio, with Nicki Haley, with Mia Love, with Bobby Jindal etc., there are plenty of candidates that appeal to Hispanic, Sikh, Indian, and African American demographics. Lots of rising stars, so I think your description of a tricky situation is way ovestated. :laughing: It reeks of imprecise journalistic soundbytes that do sloppy research based on half truths.

Arguing over who the captain should be on the titanic

I don’t think they need to worry about anything with the younger generation. With Rubio, with Nicki Haley, with Mia Love, with Bobby Jindal etc., there are plenty of candidates that appeal to Hispanic, Sikh, Indian, and African American demographics. Lots of rising stars, so I think your description of a tricky situation is way ovestated. :laughing:[/quote]

I hope that the experts within the party will closely analyse the demographics of the election to decide how tricky a situation they are in. Rather than placing their faith in individual examples.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … anged.html

No, I don’t think anyone is calling those policies “democracy”. It’s just that . . . [/quote]

Huh?

The real problem for the Republican Party – aside from the fact that it’s ossifying along with the rest of American society – is that the U.S. economy is in long term decline and so the number of producers is becoming more and more out of kilter with the number of cadgers. In the future then, if it wants to survive, the Republican Party will have no choice but to abandon its capitalist ideology and adopt some sort of me-too handout/redistributionist agenda. Good luck with that though because the Demokratski Party already owns that agenda lock, stock and barrel.

What are you talking about? The imf projects the US will be the fastest growing economy over the next four years, while China is expected to decrease. That ship is not sinking.

globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com … ring-well/

So the argument made by the wookie’s favorite ad has no teeth, just more rantings from the gloom and doom nutter wing of the formerly reasonable party.

Here is another example of the socialist/ communism argument. " Just study it out" “just study it out”

[/quote][quote]What are you talking about? The imf projects the US will be the fastest growing economy over the next four years, while China is expected to decrease. That ship is not sinking.[/quote]

Projected over the next 4 years? :roflmao: I wonder what the 4 year projection was in 2007. How about the 20 year projection? :unamused: For starters, the U.S. government spends about a trillion dollars more a year than it takes in. Unemployment hovers near 8% while there are millions of job vacancies because of a lack of qualified workers. The only real answer I see from the government is to tax the rich, which under the the most successful of outcomes would make a fraction of a percentage impact to the fiscal bottom line. Taxing the rich is purely an ideological issue. No one has the political will or power to uproot or alter anything significant in a major way, because that would mean uprooting their own chances of political survival. Look at all the Greeks in the streets fighting to keep their benefits while their country goes bankrupt. Germany is policing Greece, but will the U.S. police themselves?

[/quote][quote]What are you talking about? The imf projects the US will be the fastest growing economy over the next four years, while China is expected to decrease. That ship is not sinking.[/quote]

Projected over the next 4 years? :roflmao: I wonder what the 4 year projection was in 2007. How about the 20 year projection? :unamused: For starters, the U.S. government spends about a trillion dollars more a year than it takes in. Unemployment hovers near 8% while there are millions of job vacancies because of a lack of qualified workers. The only real answer I see from the government is to tax the rich, which under the the most successful of outcomes would make a fraction of a percentage impact to the fiscal bottom line. Taxing the rich is purely an ideological issue. No one has the political will or power to uproot or alter anything significant in a major way, because that would mean uprooting their own chances of political survival. Look at all the Greeks in the streets fighting to keep their benefits while their country goes bankrupt. Germany is policing Greece, but will the U.S. police themselves?[/quote]
Nothing you said shows that the US is a sinking ship. In fact, the same things you are saying have been said for the last 30 years (at least). I remember hearing his when Reagan was president and the dems arguing that his policies were going to destroy the country. Didn’t happen then, won’t happen now, and I don’t know of any real economist arguing it will. The idea that the USA is a sinking ship has about as many facts to support it as the republicans had to support a Romney win.

No, I don’t think anyone is calling those policies “democracy”. It’s just that . . . [/quote]

Huh?[/quote]
Policies of representative governments elected by the people are Democratic. MikeN was pointing out that such policies in and of themselves are not democratic. Isn’t this really obvious? :eh:

If people really wanted obamacare,for example, gone, they could have voted for the follower of the Prophet Smith (not you, that other one who wrote a bible). n a system with free elections, removing or keeping obamacare is democratic. IMO, the only truly undemocratic thing going on in the us right now is attempts at voter suppression.

[quote=“Deuce Dropper”][quote=“ChewDawg”]Best political ad during the recent US election:

youtube.com/watch?v=UnX7TNFIELg[/quote]

1-when you use ‘slippery slope’ in your argument, you have already failed.
2-calling the US ‘Socialist’ is wrong.
3-equating US government policy with COMMUNIST Hungary is also wrong.

That commercial is bullshit hackery designed to scare people, not surprised you like it though.

When did the right decide it is perfectly logical to say that Democratic policies are Socialism, and Socialism = Authoritarian Communism? And you wonder why you guys are out of touch. :roflmao:[/quote]
That ad is a complete strawman, rehashing the same tired-old lie that was as ridiculous in the 60s as it is now, that somehow liberalism = socialism = communism.

You want to know why liberals think right-wingers look like clueless, laughable clowns? It’s because of this Archie Bunkeresque false equation.

Taiwan… is it a Communist country? No. It has universal healthcare, gun control and many of the things American right-wingers fear. But Taiwan is neither communist not socialist. Taiwan is a democracy whose citizens enjoy freedom.

Canada… is it a Communist country? No. It has universal healthcare, gay marriage and many of the things American right-wingers fear. But Canada is neither communist nor socialist. Canada is a democracy whose citizens enjoy freedom.

Complete strawman? I thought that you enjoyed strawmen… you certainly seem to spend most of your time arguing with them…

So, all this ad represents all Republicans exactly… interesting…

[quote]Taiwan… is it a Communist country? No. It has universal healthcare, gun control and many of the things American right-wingers fear. But Taiwan is neither communist not socialist. Taiwan is a democracy.

Canada… is it a Communist country? No. It has universal healthcare, gay marriage and many of the things American right-wingers fear. But Canada is neither communist nor socialist. Canada is a democracy.[/quote]

BUT Taiwan’s health care system is going bankrupt and Canada’s has major issues with availability. All cost a lot.

The issue that many Americans, including myself, have is this: Since Roosevelt and then with a major increase under Johnson (and Nixon), spending has soared on all manner of things with greater government involvement in education, welfare, housing, retirement, medical care, economics, the environment, agriculture, trade, investment… and what are the results? We keep being told that more money is the solution and yet 50 years later we are not seeing improvements in many of the variables and, in fact, a greater passivity and dependence were often the only achievements and these (sing along with me, cuz you all know the words) requires more investment (cough cough) in education or health care or whatever…

Communism failed because it destroyed productivity. We all know that. Much of Europe and the Western world reversed course under leaders like Thatcher and Reagan and later under leaders even in Germany and France to privatize companies and to get the government out of the economy… why? and now despite all of these efforts at reform earlier, you come back and propose the same solutions which require even greater sums of money when our nations are even poorer and suffer from even lower rates of growth than they did when the 1980s reforms were voted through. And yet, despite all of this, you keep creating Republican strawmen rather than answering their simple questions: How are you going to pay for this? Can you guarantee that the monies being spent and that you are proposing to spend will have any greater benefit than the very same programs which have failed and continue to fail for more than 50 years?

We look around the world and we see economic success stories and why are these places becoming successful? More or less government? More socialism or more capitalism with reward for entrepreneurial people and hard work? Where are the failures? and are these nations caracterized by more or less government control? When you take the time to answer these questions and honestly, you may find yourself actually entering a debate rather than arguing with strawmen like a little girl playing tea time with her dollies… might be interesting and fun fantasy land for you but the cups are empty and the dolls are empty-headed playthings. Get that and you will finally enter the world of grownups. But, to some degree, I get your nonchalance over the money. You are not the one paying taxes. You are the one who will receive benefits in far greater proportion to anything that you have paid in, right? I mean are you paying U.S. taxes now? anything at all? No… well, I am sure that your opinion is still colored by your intense desire to be fair… except that we don’t really see that, do we?

So, in your view, do Republicans such as myself and Tigerman have nothing more than voter fraud, voter intimidation, racism, sexism, homophobia, hostility to the poor, greed for untold riches, religious fanaticism, while you are your liberal friends are the ones who truly care… even when the results are more poverty? less responsibility? more debt? less competitiveness? lower growth? more bureaucracy? less accountability? weakened defense postures? Is it all really just that simple? Ms Barbara Streisand? Ms. Jane Fonda? Ms Cindy Sheehan? Ms Medea Benjamin?

[/quote][quote]What are you talking about? The imf projects the US will be the fastest growing economy over the next four years, while China is expected to decrease. That ship is not sinking.[/quote]

Projected over the next 4 years? :roflmao: I wonder what the 4 year projection was in 2007. How about the 20 year projection? :unamused: For starters, the U.S. government spends about a trillion dollars more a year than it takes in. Unemployment hovers near 8% while there are millions of job vacancies because of a lack of qualified workers. The only real answer I see from the government is to tax the rich, which under the the most successful of outcomes would make a fraction of a percentage impact to the fiscal bottom line. Taxing the rich is purely an ideological issue. No one has the political will or power to uproot or alter anything significant in a major way, because that would mean uprooting their own chances of political survival. Look at all the Greeks in the streets fighting to keep their benefits while their country goes bankrupt. Germany is policing Greece, but will the U.S. police themselves?[/quote]
Nothing you said shows that the US is a sinking ship. In fact, the same things you are saying have been said for the last 30 years (at least). I remember hearing his when Reagan was president and the dems arguing that his policies were going to destroy the country. Didn’t happen then, won’t happen now, and I don’t know of any real economist arguing it will. The idea that the USA is a sinking ship has about as many facts to support it as the republicans had to support a Romney win.[/quote]

Sorry, you’re right. The decline of America just cannot and will not happen. There is absolutely no evidence having an insolvent government is any problem at all. The puny little British Empire might have spent their way to doom a hundred years ago, but what would you expect from a bunch of snooty little tea sippers? America gunna keep on truckin…aint enough dynamite on the planet to blow this train off its tracks…fuck yeah :loco:

I was going to start a business this fall but since Obama is back in power I think I won’t. I really just don’t think I can stand him looking down at me no matter how much money I stand to make. Sigh.