Did you get your data from another page? Or does the Pingdong station go by another name?
Edit: Oh, I get it. You went to the daily page, just as you said. I didn’t even bother with that. I assumed it would be too much work, and that’s a shame, since the monthly totals are down at the bottom of the page. Here’s that page: cwb.gov.tw/V6e/statistics/da … ion/dP.php
I got 2,848.5 for Pingdong for 2010.
I just copied and pasted the numbers onto Notepad, adding plus signs to all except the last, and plugging the numbers into Google. Wish I’d checked that page out earlier.
I did all that unnecessary work. That just makes me real sad:
I suspect you haven’t read the news lately or any of the materials i’ve provided links to. Let me sum up the key point for you: the CWB data support clearly what many newspaper articles have explained in detail in the last few weeks: [color=#0000FF]the rainfall in the last few months[/color] - especially in the south of Taiwan - has not been enough to fill the reservoirs adequately.
About your annual figures: you could have several typhoons in the summer and get over 8000mm of rain for the whole year that way in some place (that has happened somewhere once, i think) - but if it does not rain enough between November and April in the watersheds that supply the reservoirs, the reservoirs will be low when you get into May.
In other words: to come with a convincing argument you need a more refined approach than looking at annual totals and the number of rainy days in Taipei. That’s all there is to it.
Seems like you stopped thinking a bit too early, no?
[quote=“yuli”][quote=“Charlie Jack”]Anyway, here’s my twelve-month tally for 2010 for the other three locations:
Alishan: 3,654.6 mm
Kaohsiung: 2,160.7 mm
Taidong: 1,973.8 mm
Those three look pretty close to Fox’s.[/quote]
Perfect - now look at my half-year figures, and you can see that the rainfall in those locations in the last half year is MUCH LESS THAN HALF of those figures - not surprising as such, since most rain in southern Taiwan falls between May and October. But the figures are low, in my opinion.
I suspect you haven’t read the news lately or any of the materials I’ve provided links to. Let me sum up the key point for you: the CWB data support clearly what many newspaper articles have explained in detail in the last few weeks: [color=#0000FF]the rainfall in the last few months[/color] - especially in the south of Taiwan - has not been enough to fill the reservoirs adequately.
About your annual figures: you could have several typhoons in the summer and get over 8000mm of rain for the whole year that way in some place (that has happened somewhere once, I think) - but if it does not rain enough between November and April in the watersheds that supply the reservoirs, the reservoirs will be low when you get into May.
In other words: to come with a convincing argument you need a more refined approach than looking at annual totals and the number of rainy days in Taipei. That’s all there is to it.
Seems like you stopped thinking a bit too early, no?[/quote]
I’m sure because all the examples are examples of high-rainfall. Taiwan gets a lot of rain. It has had a lot of rain in the past year. The role of any water authority is to capture and manage that resource. The authorities in Taiwan know that they have regular water shortages about every 11 years, but they don’t do much to address the situation. They wait and hope that things will turn out OK in the end, because they know Taiwan gets a lot of rain, too. In general Taiwan get more rain from monsoons than typhoons, even in the typhoon season July to September the percentages are 47.5% for typhoons and 52.5% for monsoons over the past 50 years. If you look at June to August which includes the plum rains the percentages are more stark with 36.8% for typhoons and 63.2% for monsoons (Journal of Climate, American Meteorological Society). I assume the government fear low monsoonal rain because getting typhoon rain is a crap shoot.
So I don’t think I stopped thinking too early at all. I think if you think Taiwan does not get enough rain on an annual basis to cover its water needs you are lost to the wolves of politics and bureaucracy.
Meanwhile the drought continues outside with moderate rain.
So “we all know” except stupid me - it can’t be helped then. I stupidly get my figures like this - for example for Kaohsiung:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaohsiung
(average rainfall based on CWB data, period not shown)
Nov 13.4
Dec 11.5
Jan 20.0
Feb 23.6
Mar 39.2
Apr 72.8
tgs.org.tw/jge/files/article … 481456.pdf (on the 3rd page of that file)
(1971-2006 average)
Nov 14.6
Dec 14.5
Jan 19.9
Feb 26.0
Mar 34.5
Apr 82.3
(2001-2006 average)
Nov 14.0
Dec 30.5
Jan 20.1
Feb 11.9
Mar 30.0
Apr 69.5
Here the information is not in table form, so we need to do some “math”: they give the 4-month average rain from Jan-Apr for 1972-2001 as 1.7in, which is abt. 43.2mm.
And since that is 27% the referenced average value, 100% calculates to abt. 159.9mm - this value is very close to the values of the other sources shown above.
And now the latest figures:
4) CWB data for the last 6 months (2010/2011)
Nov 13.0
Dec 11.5
Jan 7.7
Feb 3.5
Mar 8.0
Apr 29.5
Unfortunately i can’t massage those figures for 2010/2011 to show anything but a much lower value for the last half year’s rainfall than the averages shown in the reference sources,
whereby the rainfall in November and December was not unusual, but the values from January for April are rather low at a total of 48.7mm - in fact, if we calculate a percentage based on source 3 shown above, we get a value of 30.5% - none of this is my opinion, simply reported data.
Of course, all you need to do now for your argument to hold is prove that the reported data is wrong and provide the correct data. Piece of cake, i’d say…
Reservoirs cannot catch this annual rainfall (that is no different this year from previous years) - it is the last half year’s low rainfall that underlies the low levels of water in the reservoirs (as has been said before).
Obviously there’s not a drought. A drought does not occur over a one or two year period. If people can’t manage the water in the other nine or ten years of the cycle when there’s plenty of it, then it is a problem with people, not with the climate (aside from climate change, but that’s another issue entirely). The weather and climate are what they are and there are going to be natural fluctuations. If one bad year of rain causes it to be game over, then people need to rethink how they’re playing the game. It’s as simple as that.
So “we all know” except stupid me - it can’t be helped then. I stupidly get my figures like this - for example for Kaohsiung:
[/quote]
Really? See the facts from CWB below:
[quote]Reservoirs cannot catch this annual rainfall (that is no different this year from previous years) - it is the last half year’s low rainfall that underlies the low levels of water in the reservoirs (as has been said before).
[/quote]
Here is the rainfall in Kauhsiung from Sept to April (last part of the year and early part since 2007)
2007 to 2008 = 336mm
2008 to 2009 =464 mm
2009 to 2010 = 252.5 mm
2010 to 2011 = 1089mm
In the last 8 months Kauhsiung has had 310% of the average of the previous three years for the same time period. These are not my opinions these are the cold hard facts of the case.
CJ: here is the link for pingtung its there at the bottom of the scroll downs: http://www.cwb.gov.tw/V6e/
GuyinTaiwan: Please stop thinking.
Why do all these facts magically fall into my lap? Because you would have to be brain-dead to not realize Taiwan has a lot of rain. We all know it.
Meanwhile the drought continues and it is pouring outside now.
Ah, who is not to like that: a creative twist in this debate!
Although, on second thought, i’ll leave the field to you while retiring to savour what i’ve gained from Charlie Jack’s and antarcticbeech’s suggestions…
The drought was bad today. I had to walk around in soggy shoes.
Chiayi in which the Chianan plain lies (supposedly the driest place in Taiwan) had more than average rainfall (preceding 3 years) for the past 8 months.
2010 to 2011 = 437mm
2009 to 2010 = 366mm
2008 to 2009 = 282.9mm
2007 to 2008 = 597mm
With an average rainfall for the preceding 3 years of 405mm. This year had 8% more than the average of the previous three years.
Out of curiosity and in all fairness, I looked up the figures for the catchment area of Shihmen and Feitsui reservoirs which I understand are Hsinchu and Illan.
Hsinchu had below average rainfall on a 10 year running average for the period Sept to April at 901mm. This year it had 509mm. So that’s a big reduction of 45%
However, the Feitsui catchment had above average rainfall of about 10%. The rainfall average was 1853mm and this year they had 1993mm.
So Hsinchu has definitely had below average rainfall but not the rest of the country it has had above average rainfall in almost all counties.
The Shihmen reservoir frequently runs dry and is silted up. Ironically, the worst case scenario for the reservoir is actually to get a lot of heavy rain. Water shortages occur when it overflows and blocks all the piping with mud. It has been like it for many years.
There’s an interesting opinion piece in today’s Taipei Times, by Lee Ken-cheng (李根政), who is the director of an organization called Mercy on the Earth, Taiwan. Here’s an excerpt.
[quote]The controversial Hushan Reservoir (湖山水庫) in Yunlin County is under construction. Although its budget has been repeatedly blocked by the legislature, the Jiyang Lake (吉洋人工湖) project between Greater Kaohsiung and Pingtung County is about to begin. The agency is also planning to build the Bilin Reservoir (比麟水庫) in Hsinchu County and Pingsi Reservoir (平溪水庫) in Keelung, as well as re-evaluate the Meinong Reservoir (美濃水庫) project, which has been suspended.
Since it takes 10 to 20 years and billions of NT dollars to plan and build a new reservoir, is this really the most effective solution to an extreme climate?[/quote] taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/ … 2003503423
Lee says that in Kaohsiung the water supply could be increased by 150,000 tons per day if leakage were reduced by 10 percent, and that if the Kaohsiung area’s wastewater plant were upgraded, it could produce 300,000 tons per day for industry.
In addition, he says that Donggang Creek, which is used by industry in the Kaohsiung area, is being underused, and that if sewage management were improved, some of this water could be put in the local reservoir for domestic use.
He argues that leakage reduction is more effective than building reservoirs, and that reservoir development merely benefits those who profit from it.
Fox: Indeed. When I went to bed last night, it was raining. When I woke up in the middle of the night and it was raining. It was still raining when I woke up this morning. It has not stopped raining all day.
Yes, the drought was very bad today, but it seems to have taken a breather this afternoon at least in Neihu.
Actually, the Taipei Times had an unintentionally funny article today about the drought. Some commentator said that 800,000,000 tonnes of water are lost due to leaking taps and pipes to houses, enough for 45 days of water supply. It was your usual prattle about how bad the drought is and the difficulty in solving the problem of getting residents to fix pipes and taps and also the feed pipes to houses. The article finished with “Taiwan Water Corp. said it had budgeted more than 2 million nt (69444) with the aim of reducing leakage by 14% by 2014.”
Jesus H. Christ can’t we up the ante a little bit here boys. You run out of water on average every three to four years and at the risk of grinding the country’s economy to a halt, you have budgeted $69,444 dollars. Oh My Fucking God! I’ll give you a loaner on that amount.
Jesus H. Christ can’t we up the ante a little bit here boys. You run out of water on average every three to four years and at the risk of grinding the country’s economy to a halt, you have budgeted $69,444 dollars. Oh My Fucking God! I’ll give you a loaner on that amount.[/quote]
People still have to pay for water that comes out of leaky faucets so I don’t think the water company is in a hurry to see them fixed.
Raining cats and dogs in K-Town today. It cools things down nicely.
That sounds familiar. Why am i inclined to find that believable?
Another point to add to Lee’s points: You will find information in some of the article i have linked to at A drought? No kidding that suggests that reservoirs are not a good choice considering Taiwan’s topology and climate.
A few thoughts (“in the rough”; nothing conclusive) in reference to Lee’s proposals:
About reducing leakage:
certain pipes are owned by the water corporation, and to reduce leakage on that level capital is required - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
certain pipes are owned by water users, and those owners may feel inclined to reduce leakage if the water rate is raised high enough (assuming the leaks are located after the meter) or if they are fined for leakage or denied water delivery (in cases where leaks exist before the meter)
About wastewater reuse:
wastewater plant upgrades require capital - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
About sewage treatment:
sewage lines and treatment plants require capital - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
A few other thoughts (things to consider):
Cisterns: in many parts of the world with sporadic rainfall people use cisterns to collect rain water. (Such water can be used for other things than drinking water.)
Rate increases: easy to implement. (They require a political decision)
Rate increases: increasing the water rate would provide an incentive for fixing leaks and generate capital for necessary investments.
Fines for wasting water: easy to decide but enforcement not only difficult (lots of opportunities for bribing, cheating, etc.) but also with undesirable social consequences (such a system requires intrusive actions on part of a “water police”)
Tentative bottom line: much hinges on politics - politicians will act this way when they get kickbacks from the industry and that way if the people put enough pressure on them - kickback systems cannot be fully eradicated but can be weakened by strengthening and enforcing appropriate laws - politicians will act in the right direction if the people put enough pressure on them - thus it all comes down to what the people decide to do
That sounds familiar. Why am i inclined to find that believable?
Another point to add to Lee’s points: You will find information in some of the article i have linked to at [A drought? No kidding that suggests that reservoirs are not a good choice considering Taiwan’s topology and climate.
A few thoughts (“in the rough”; nothing conclusive) in reference to Lee’s proposals:
About reducing leakage:
certain pipes are owned by the water corporation, and to reduce leakage on that level capital is required - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
certain pipes are owned by water users, and those owners may feel inclined to reduce leakage if the water rate is raised high enough (assuming the leaks are located after the meter) or if they are fined for leakage or denied water delivery (in cases where leaks exist before the meter)
About wastewater reuse:
wastewater plant upgrades require capital - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
About sewage treatment:
sewage lines and treatment plants require capital - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
A few other thoughts (things to consider):
Cisterns: in many parts of the world with sporadic rainfall people use cisterns to collect rain water. (Such water can be used for other things than drinking water.)
Rate increases: easy to implement. (They require a political decision)
Rate increases: increasing the water rate would provide an incentive for fixing leaks and generate capital for necessary investments.
Fines for wasting water: easy to decide but enforcement not only difficult (lots of opportunities for bribing, cheating, etc.) but also with undesirable social consequences (such a system requires intrusive actions on part of a “water police”)
Tentative bottom line: much hinges on politics - politicians will act this way when they get kickbacks from the industry and that way if the people put enough pressure on them - kickback systems cannot be fully eradicated but can be weakened by strengthening and enforcing appropriate laws - politicians will act in the right direction if the people put enough pressure on them - thus it all comes down to what the people decide to do
[/quote]
In other words, criminal mismanagement. Thank you.
I think there have been and are many, many crypto-debates going on within the virtual universe of Forumosa. 
[/quote]
