Some people are simply too proud to admit the error of their ways, sandman.
But you are certainly most welcome to your simplistic world view. :discodance:
But you are certainly most welcome to your simplistic world view. :discodance:[/quote]
After trying to ridicule and belittle me and make me look like a fool you ultimately come the full circle to my opening post:
After the longest spell of rain in the island's history, now we are told we are in the midst of a drought. Is that possible? Fire the dude in charge of water resources. It has rained every day almost for eight long months. There is a thread dedicated to it on Forumosa that bemoans it with avengence and now we are told their will be water restrictions. Last time, 8 years ago there really was a drought because that was the last time northern Taiwan saw three fine days in a row. What a miserable bunch of leaders this island really has.40% more rainy days in Northern Taiwan than normal.
More than average rain in almost every county we looked at.
A lot of bureaucratic mishandling and possible corruption in water-resource handling – 69,444 dollars dedicated to solving the leaking water problem.
The facts, hey?
And you think I have the simplistic world view. I wasn’t the one pushing the simplistic drought view it was you, dragon bones and mucha man. Just admit you were wrong. It’s not so hard. You were keen to ask me to do it. Why not yourself after examining all the facts? Pride is what it is. Too bad for you.
Maybe i haven’t been as clear as i could have been, so let me clarify:
As far as my view of you as a person is concerned i got the impression form various posts on of yours on Forumosa that you’re a nice guy. Other than that i don’t know you, and i have absolutely no reason to say anything negative about you. And i haven’t said anything negative about you. However, it is possible that some of my comments have been unclear, and so i would like to apologize for any inadvertent misapprehensions i may have caused.
As regards this discussion: i have been taking issue with your claim that there is no drought anywhere in Taiwan, because i believe that argument is unsupported not only by the data that are available online (from the CWB and from other sources) but also by observable reality (such as reservoirs with low water levels). Any talk about pride and admitting errors is as irrelevant to me as assertions that Taiwan has had a higher annual rainfall last year than in years before. The explanation for why “annual rainfall” is irrelevant in the context of this spring’s drought in Taiwan can be found in many sources, some of which i have given URLs for, but i have no need and no reason to repeat any of what i have posted, and i will not engage in the argument about the drought with you any more, either.
This post is only to make sure we have it on record that i have no reason (or desire) to say anything negative whatsoever about you as a person.
Lastly, i will repeat that reducing an disagreement about a complex issue like climate and weather (mixed up with human nature and politics to boot) to “Some people are simply too proud to admit the error of their ways” is no better than a “simplistic worldview”. Now, you may in reality have a more differentiated view and just used that phrase for some other effect in the discussion 
- so, if you retract it, i will certainly retract my reaction to it, too. 
Otherwise, over and out.
‘drought’ is not possible in one area only 20 km away from another with significantly more rainfall than normal.
Taiwan may have a water shortage (low dam levels, etc) but it is NOT in drought. Come back after three or four years of rainfall less than 30% of average and I’ll call it a drought.
Taiwan has shitty water management coupled with profligate wastage from people who don’t give a shit and don’t know any better.
Taiwan is NOT in a drought.
Good that we have that cleared up then. That get’s us right back to Sandman’s suggestion to call it “water shortage” - however, this is what transpired after that, so are we going into a time loop now by suggesting that in Taiwanese English “drought” means “water shortage”?
A few excerpted posts from this thread:
That would have been a better choice of words, for sure. But, for better or for worse, in “Taiwanese English” the term is now “drought” - and people from other countries need to understand that it may not mean what it means in their home countries.[/quote]
[quote=“Mucha Man”]It’s not just Taiwan that calls these kinds of seasonal water shortages droughts. So does Vancouver where I come from. We’re one of the rainiest place in Canada but if we don’t get a lot of snow in the winter then we have water shortages in summer. Doesn’t matter how much it rains in the spring, we need the snow melt.
[quote]B.C’s provincial environment Minister Barry Penner advised British Columbians on Monday to brace for possible drought in many areas of the province this summer following two months of unusually warm and dry weather.
Snowpacks in river basins across B.C. are below normal levels and with only four to six weeks of winter remaining, time is running out to make up the difference.[/quote][/quote]
[quote=“Charlie Jack”]If Taiwan is experiencing a drought, I guess it’s a socio-economic drought:
drought.si/index.php?page=drought][/quote]
[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote]The Concept of Drought
Drought is a normal, recurrent feature of climate, although many erroneously consider it a rare and random event. It occurs in virtually all climatic zones, but its characteristics vary significantly from one region to another. Drought is a temporary aberration; it differs from aridity, which is restricted to low rainfall regions and is a permanent feature of climate.
Drought is an insidious hazard of nature. Although it has scores of definitions, it originates from a deficiency of precipitation over an extended period of time, usually a season or more. This deficiency results in a water shortage for some activity, group, or environmental sector. Drought should be considered relative to some long-term average condition of balance between precipitation and evapotranspiration (i.e., evaporation + transpiration) in a particular area, a condition often perceived as “normal”. It is also related to the timing (i.e., principal season of occurrence, delays in the start of the rainy season, occurrence of rains in relation to principal crop growth stages) and the effectiveness (i.e., rainfall intensity, number of rainfall events) of the rains. [/quote]
drought.unl.edu/whatis/conce … perational[/quote]
OK, once more a summary of the given links:
pdc.org/iweb/drought.jsp?subg=1 (antarcticbeech)
library.thinkquest.org/16132/htm … types.html (Charlie Jack)
drought.unl.edu/whatis/concept.htm[/quote] (Mucha Man)
Have fun, guys :discodance:
[quote=“urodacus”]‘drought’ is not possible in one area only 20 km away from another with significantly more rainfall than normal.
Taiwan may have a water shortage (low dam levels, etc) but it is NOT in drought. Come back after three or four years of rainfall less than 30% of average and I’ll call it a drought.
Taiwan has shitty water management coupled with profligate wastage from people who don’t give a shit and don’t know any better.
Taiwan is NOT in a drought.[/quote]
That’s what the drought debunkers have been saying. It is like AJ said they are trying to ride this thing on the coat-tails of climate change to avoid taking any responsibility for poor management.
No need to apologize. It’s all in good fun. I realize you are only trying to wind me up. I’m just pointing fun at the ridiculous idea of a drought. I do a lot of weather in my day job, I don’t think any weatherman is considering this a drought.
Why are you dragging my name back into it? 
All I did is point out the incorrect nature of your admittedly flawed facts, and make a joke post about dripping air conditioners.
OK… are we now talking about a language use issue? Let me assume for a moment we are. (Should this be a new thread?)
Let me ask something while keeping in mind the data concerning the word “drought” that i 've piled up in that post that you can see on your the screen just above the post of yours that i am quoting here:
Many here are English teachers, no? How do you settle disputes about what words mean? Do you take a vote somewhere? Or do you rely on dictionaries? Or your gut feeling? And what do you do when an Australian and a Canadian and a Pakistani disagree on what a given word means? Do you call a few Americans and ask them to be the world language police and decide the issue for all of you? Or do you throw the dice? Or do you leave it unsettled on the level of “the same word can mean different things in different varieties of English”?
An inquiring mind - in this case that of a non-native speaker - would like to know. I’ve never experienced such a language muddle as here on Forumosa.
(No, no, this is not a complaint! It’s actually rather - or is that quite? - entertaining. :bravo: )
let’s change the direction of the topic somewhat (I’m in Vancouver at the moment getting over jetlag and have lots of time to hassle you bubs). What is this criminal incompetence I keep hearing. From my perspective, the authorities here have managed for several decades to provide water for domestic, industrial, and agricultural use for one of the most crowded places on earth (and that includes a place with one of the highest factory concentrations too). No one has ever died for a lack of water. We manage to have a petrochemical industry, steel, IT, rice, etc, all of which require very heavy and reliable water supplies.
So someone please explain how what in many ways is a pretty impressive accomplishment is actually criminally incompetently managed? Yes, of course we all know about leaking pipe. Blah blah blah. If that’ts all you have please give your fingers a rest. I want something real and substantial since you are suggesting as much.
It’s simple enough. A drought is measured or seen in the way plants and vegetation grows. Are things looking green and lush or brownish and dry? Water shortage, on the other hand is measured by calculating the amount of water available and the amount of water required.
I blame the news for crying drought when all it is is poor water management. Fox is right. There is no drought. Look around you. Things are green and lush. Here in the south, things were starting to dry out a bit but it’s over already. June will bring all the rain we need and more.
How about the 69444USD budgeted for reducing water leakage that accounts for 800 million tonnes of wasted water? The plan is to reduce the wastage by 14% by 2014. Now surely the economic loss to society of any level of water rationing would be more than 69444USD on any given day that the water was rationed, for example what if production at TSMC or UMC were put under threat. Just the notion of it being put under threat would have a greater economic cost than 69444 dollars in strategic planning. Then there is the threat to society, security, social disruption. Even closing a few swimming pools is going to account for that much money in a couple of days, couple that with the local car wash guys trying to eek out a living. Imagine for example, if you proposed that miserly amount of money in Canada. It is the amount of money that any sane person under scrutiny would know to keep out of the hands of the press, but the very fact that they think it is proactive is a clear window into their incompetence. A concrete water tank costs 130,000 nt. They are proposing the value of 15 concrete water tanks to solve an 800 million tonne problem. That in and of itself is criminal incompetence surely. Please remove your blinkers. I take offense at the idea that this kind of criticism is some veiled slight on Taiwan. I have lived here longer than 20% of the population. I have well and truly earned the right to this opinion.
It is a less than impressive accomplishment to have high-rainfall annually and be running out of water. That is the definition of a botch up not something to be lauded. I for one think Israel’s ability to provide water for agriculture and it’s society is way more impressive than the laughable attempts that pass here. The blah, blah, blah does not belong in this camp. Sorry.
How about a link, fox. I am in no way inclined to believe your numbers simply because you have stated them. In any case so what? The CRIMINAL incompetence comes down to not adequately fixing water pipes in taipei which never suffers any serious problems anyway. I mean that’s all you have? Colored me as uninpressed as i frankly knew i would be.
Fixing the pipes in taipei would be very very expensive and from what i have read would only improve leaking by a few percentage points. Worldwide average is around 17% while Taipei is 22 or so. So you would have the city spend billions just to get the average down a few percentage points. You can’t entirely fix the problem, especially in an earthquake zone. Pipes will always break and leak. So on a cost analysis is it really worth it? Possibly it is now, but ten years ago I would say that the city was probably making the better decision not spending billions to fix the pipes.
Okay, so anyone else will a real example of criminal incompetence?
[quote=“RobinTaiwan”]It’s simple enough. A drought is measured or seen in the way plants and vegetation grows. Are things looking green and lush or brownish and dry? Water shortage, on the other hand is measured by calculating the amount of water available and the amount of water required.
I blame the news for crying drought when all it is is poor water management. Fox is right. There is no drought. Look around you. Things are green and lush. Here in the south, things were starting to dry out a bit but it’s over already. June will bring all the rain we need and more.[/quote]
Okay, another definition of drought. This one is a little out there but we appreciate your contribution.
[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote=“RobinTaiwan”]It’s simple enough. A drought is measured or seen in the way plants and vegetation grows. Are things looking green and lush or brownish and dry? Water shortage, on the other hand is measured by calculating the amount of water available and the amount of water required.
I blame the news for crying drought when all it is is poor water management. Fox is right. There is no drought. Look around you. Things are green and lush. Here in the south, things were starting to dry out a bit but it’s over already. June will bring all the rain we need and more.[/quote]
Okay, another definition of drought. This one is a little out there but we appreciate your contribution.[/quote]
Which dictionary would you like me to quote?
Merriam-Webster? OK. merriam-webster.com/dictionary/drought
drought: a period of dryness especially when prolonged; specifically : one that causes extensive damage to crops or prevents their successful growth
Online Dictionary? OK. thefreedictionary.com/drought
drought: A long period of abnormally low rainfall, especially one that adversely affects growing or living conditions.
There’s nothing wrong with my definition. But there is something very wrong with your attitude. 
Nothing wrong with my attitude rob. If you post something as foolish as you have you deserve a bit of sarcasm directed at it. We’ve had a lot of sound definitions given already from good sources. Yuli even out them together in one post just a page or two back. None suggested that a drought is defined by looking at the conditions of plants. Most did state that there are many definitions of drought, that is occurs everywhere, and is a relative term, and not an absolute one because of varying rainfall patterns around the world. It’s also clear that drought is not the same as aridity which is what out australian friends seem to think.
Btw, even you definitions above suggest this, especially the one stating that drought can be defined for its affects on living conditions. Or did you miss the ‘or’? 
There hasn’t been any adverse effects on living conditions for people living in Taiwan. Have YOU missed that? The “or” is quite irrelevant now, isn’t it?
And there isn’t a drought happening either. There is worry about one. And yes, in the past ther have been adverse living conditions, as water is shut off for days at a time in some areas, and industrial zones scale down production.
As an aside, but this whole thread for you Australians seems to come down to some perverse need to brag to the rest of us about how tough conditions are in the homeland. Of course i keep wondering how a people who try to set up ranching and farming in severe drought tricken regions have the audacity to lecture others about competence. (I’m teasing here if that isn’t clear.)
[quote=“RobinTaiwan”]Merriam-Webster? OK. merriam-webster.com/dictionary/drought
drought: a period of dryness especially when prolonged; specifically : one that causes extensive damage to crops or prevents their successful growth
Online Dictionary? OK. thefreedictionary.com/drought
drought: A long period of abnormally low rainfall, especially one that adversely affects growing or living conditions.[/quote]
Thanks for providing additional definitions, Rob.
It seems that the second definition would apply in the context of this discussion, that is, to the situation in Taiwan for the 3, 4 months before the recent plum rains started - and, of course, also to some time periods in previous years: “long period of abnormally low rainfall […] that adversely affects […] living conditions”
I have no data at hand about crop damage or lack of successful growth although i recall hearing about a reduction in milk output on account of limited feed in some area at some time, so it is possible the first definition may also have applied to Taiwan in some areas at some time.
But i am not a native speaker, so i will suspend judgement and just add those definitions to the list i already have, for future reference.
I have also posted some links to news about the recent plum rain that has taken some of the pressure off:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=98663&start=24
a drought isn’t measured in three or four month periods. a drought is much more prolonged than that.
All these lily-livered liquid losers that have grown up in wet countries panic when the weather turns even slightly good for once!
Soft, that’s what you are!