A North Korea thread


#322

Going to sleep now. Frankly, the idea that this represented some kind of progress didn’t even occur to me. That reflects my own understanding of the long-term history of this question. YMMV. You get some sleep now too :sleeping:


#323

It’s clearly all a coincidence.


#324

I believe the loony met a greater crazy person.

Though it is a bit fishy after killing bro so boldly and other very conspicuous attempts at so called power demos.

Maybe sis made a deal with China and/or US.


#325

Maybe, and this is a long shot, but maybe he wants to do the right thing. End this decades long mess in a peaceful way.

Maybe he didnt kill his brother. Maybe it was the older generation military leaders in his country trying to kill off the sane members of the family. Maybe it was a black ops thing ment to frame him so that the west could wage war in Asia too. Anything could be possible. Maybe he knows he cant survive an all out war and he is trying to find a way to come out of this mess a good guy and alive. Or maybe its all a game.

What we do know is that for the first time in, what, 70 years? He wants a meeting with a US President. Things are getting interesting.


#326

Apparently a tour bus full of Chinese tourists drove off a bridge in a province neighbouring Pyongyang, details:


#327

Oh, those sour grapes.

Can we at least agree the Orange One hasn’t started a nuclear war so far, as many predicted?

Some guys seem to have an inordinate amount of dumb luck.


#328

Can we at least agree Kim is very honorable, as the Orange One assures us?

“Kim Jong Un, he really has been very open and I think very honorable from everything we’re seeing.”

That’s obviously loftier praise than very fine people. :notworthy:


#329

Context is important yyy, but for those wishing to take a soundbite and use it to illustrate their pre conceived notion, it matters far less than being able to add another item to their list of wrong doings that make up their overall collection reasons to hate Trump.


#330

What’s your definition of the distinction between pre- and post-conceived notions?


#331

Objectivity.


#332

Wikiland says:

preconception (plural preconceptions)

  1. An opinion formed before obtaining adequate evidence, especially as the result of bias or prejudice.
  2. A prejudice that prevents rational consideration of an issue.

I think your beef here is that he only means “very honorable” in the context of arranging a meeting and that because I’m not pointing out that angle it means I’m prejudiced. Thou shalt not quote the Donald without working every possible mitigation angle is somewhere in the Bible, I’m sure.

Let’s say the meeting angle is correct. That doesn’t make the comedy angle, the irony angle, the Quotable Donald angle, the Moody Donald angle etc. invalid. Like when he praised Billary as “great people” or whatever the exact words were – he could say oh but back then I didn’t know they were the worst people in the world, and now I do! It’s still a quote worth noting.

Now back to very honorable: pick a reviled figure – OBL for example, if he were alive – and use the same line.

:tumble:

But it’s just about arranging a meeting!

Yep.

:tumble: :tumble: :tumble:


#333

The context with N.Korea is of course he is trying to make a deal. The context is also just a few months ago tensions were high. At that time missiles were flying, nuclear tests conducted, rhetoric was high.

Since then Kim Jong Un has expressed a wish to make some sort of deal and as a sign of good faith has stopped lobbing rockets over the ocean and stopped conducting nuclear tests (perhaps as Tempo mentioned he lost the ability to do so as the test site might be irreparably damaged).

However it is within that context that Trump made his remark, what I think he was trying to say was all indications are that Kim Jong Un is sincere in his wanting to make a deal, what he has done and how he is behaving towards the stated goal of denuclearization and justification for a meeting to further that goal would appear honorable.

Those tangible, observable changes in N.Koreas behavior include a promise to stop nuclear testing and a promise to stop lobbing rockets. The promise is full nuclear disarmament. It’s a goal worth pursuing, yet you don’t make deals when only one side wins and the other side is shammed mercilessly, you need to compliment when they are doing something right. Seems you have a problem with that, or feel it’s an opportunity to mock Trump.

Or have it your way, yuk yuk, don’t you know Kim Jong Un executes his own uncle with anti-aircraft guns yet Trump calls him honorable. yuk yuk, Kim Jong Un is a Tyrant yet Trump thinks he is honorable.

One of those is looking at events in context, the other is a cartoon caricature using out of context words to fit a pre-conceived notion.


#334

I wonder if this could have something to do with it. I know this is the evil WaPo MSM and all, but…


#335

Wow, Trump’s powers are greater than I thought. Maybe this is the “dragon energy” that Kanye is talking about. :grin:


#336

Sure, I made note of that in my last post. But what I was taking issue with with regards yyy’s post was a growing form of cognitive dissonance I see creeping into all sorts of discussions. Here’s the post again.

There are two dog whistles in here, the first I already commented on, the second is the “very fine people” comment.

What people tend to do if they believe a particular thing is true is to stock up on instances that confirms their position. For example, if you think Trump is a turnip, you find instances that confirm such a claim.

Or for example, those people who defend BLM will be quick to point out institutional racism. A very valid topic for concern, everyone would agree I hope racism is a bad thing. But in doing so they trot out Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown almost straight away. As far as I can see those two cases had nothing to do with institutional racism, more like the Democrats and the MSM were desperate to push for a new civil rights movement financed by well known left leaning organizations and individuals. Groups like BLM (and their followers) have convinced themselves these cases are indisputable proof of institutional racism, they think this is established fact and used as such. But it just aint so.

The “very fine people” reference that yyy used, in certain circles (ones who think Trump is a cretin) see the remark and conclusions drawn from it’s usage as an established fact. Those people understand Trump used this with regards people attending the Charlottesville protest. and he was calling Nazi’s and white supremacists “very fine people”. Hence the conclusion that trump must be a Nazi sympathizer and a white supremacist.

However, as is so often the case these days, the conclusions reached are non sequitur in nature.


#337

Kim wants a seat at the table. There’s no indication that he would disinvite himself due to lack of gratuitous flattery. All Donnie needs to do is to avoid insulting Kim. If the only way he can think of doing that is by demonstrating his own Janian personality with a 180, it’s a sign of incompetence.

Where’s @jotham these days? I’d love to hear his take. I would probably mock it because I’m a flawed creature too (not casting the first stone here), but I’m not a world leader, so I’m allowed a bit more leeway in these matters.

or feel it’s an opportunity to mock Trump.

Correct. The lèse majesté law is not yet in effect, so I’m safe for now. :slight_smile:

Or have it your way, yuk yuk, don’t you know Kim Jong Un executes his own uncle with anti-aircraft guns yet Trump calls him honorable. yuk yuk, Kim Jong Un is a Tyrant yet Trump thinks he is honorable.

Allegedly executed with AA guns. :no_no:

Did you try my little thought experiment? Let’s make it even better: Barry instead of Donnie.

Don’t you know Osama is the Godfather of Terror, yet Obama thinks he is honorable?! :astonished:

You’re taking it out of context, man! :rage:

The “very fine people” reference that yyy used, in certain circles (ones who think Trump is a cretin) see the remark and conclusions drawn from it’s usage as an established fact. Those people understand Trump used this with regards people attending the Charlottesville protest. and he was calling Nazi’s and white supremacists “very fine people”. Hence the conclusion that trump must be a Nazi sympathizer and a white supremacist.

He had one job that day: say something to bring the country together. He achieved the opposite.

We don’t even need to consider whether or not it was calculated for Realpolitik effect (i.e. to avoid alienating certain voters), because either way it’s laughable.

The promise is full nuclear disarmament. It’s a goal worth pursuing

War vs. peace is one of the few issues on which my position is clear. Have you not noticed how often I spar with Rollo on this? Absolutism vs. compromise is basically the same thing. “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.” Which makes neutrals against everyone – anarchists basically.

My train of thought is routed differently. :idunno:


#338

So…first the North Korean waifu attends the winter Olympics in South Korea, than Kim visits the South in person. Is this the real life or just a Fanta sea?


#339

I saw what the script was supposed to be too. We are watching the same events unfold before our eyes, just interpreting them differently.

Which is ok, no point in getting bogged down in the details, I’m sure we will be revisiting the topic at a later point. My point I wanted to make was, that once you have determined something in your mind, you look for and find confirmation everywhere. Building up a big list of “proof” that collectively “proves” what we believe. But in fact what we are doing, and it’s quite normal is a form of cognitive dissonance.

Take for example if I were to believe Trump is racist. Then he makes a comment about shithole countries and asks why we can’t have more immigrants from Norway. Proof. why does he hate brown and black people from shithole countries and only wants white people from countries like Norway.

He might have been using Norway because its an example of a developed nation, where people from there would have been highly educated and have talents that the US can benefit from.

I don’t know, I can’t look into his heart, but my point is for those who believe he is racist, there is only one interpretation. The one that fits their preconceived notion.


#340

I think what you are trying to explain is called confirmation bias.


#341

Cognitive dissonance will have confirmation bias as one part, but is more than that in and of itself. Scot Adams has written a few articles as it relates to the election. Here’s a couple. .

http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/08/17/how-to-know-youre-in-a-mass-hysteria-bubble/

http://blog.dilbert.com/2016/11/23/a-lesson-in-cognitive-dissonance/