divea, it’s not a case of jingoism, it’s a case of whether you stand to get executed or imprisoned for doing x in your country or in China. If we financially support human rights abuses, then we take part in those abuses.
I’m not saying that any of us can be ‘clean’, in the global economy, but actively supporting regimes who imprison and execute political dissidents, then we bear responsibility for that.
‘We and ours’ ARE better, sometimes. I believe Taiwan’s government to be superior to Zimbabwe’s. I don’t believe that that makes Taiwanese people racially superior, but it does make me more inclined to visit Taiwan.
I had fun in China, but I was bored a lot of the time. Touts, tacky tourist stuff, venal people chasing me round. Talked to a few cool people too. But generally, i didn’t feel that engaged with the country. It was a a bit meh.
Politics is the main reason why I won’t go to China, apart from pollution and general shittyness from the locals.
… and politics means I won’t go to another whole chunk of countries. Now, that’s not to say that I have not travelled extensively, and enjoyed it, including through 18 different countries in Africa (even Zimbabwe, before that cunt Mugabe had fucked it up too much, but not Congo, Somalia, Libya, Egypt or Sudan). Just don’t say that it’s a silly reason. I happen to be a man of principle, something that is sorely lacking in most of the world’s dealings with China, and with China’s dealing with most of the world, especially those who they choose to develop special relationships with. I’m thinking North Korea, Burma, Sudan, Libya, Iran, etc here.
I’m sure there are lots of nice people in China, but the overwhelming impression I have had from meeting real Chinese people in real places outside China (and I have met many supposedly very intelligent, very open, very well travelled Chinese PhDs etc) is that many of them are nationalistic intolerant unprincipled arseholes who would sell you their neighbour’s daughter for a cigarette. And that’s just the ones overseas! But that’s just my opinion, though one’s opinion is, unfortunately or not, what one bases one’s decisions on.
Anyway, life is too short and there is not enough money to travel everywhere. As I get older, why not go to places I know I will enjoy, rather than ones that I have considerable reservations about? it’s a big world, and I’d like to see more of it. Oh, and I miss a good curry. Anywhere with good stinking hot curry is good! I guess I’ll have to drop in to Birmingham again.
[quote=“urodacus”]…especially those who they choose to develop special relationships with. I’m thinking North Korea, Burma, Sudan, Libya, Iran, etc here.
[/quote]
North Korea was my second best ever holiday. After Xinjiang
But the problem with a week in China is that it is very hit or miss, and it is mostly miss unless you know how to get somewhere no one knows about. And that means no one. Anything in the Lonely Planet is now pretty famous among Chinese domestic tourists and anything that is famous has hordes and will be over-developed.
Someone earlier mentions JiuZhaiGou as somewhere quite magical. Well, it became famous for its tranquility. And this is what happens when JiuZhaiGou became famous:
Yes, you are right and the same phenomenon happens all over the world and has nothing to do with China per se,orangutans in Sepilok national park spring to mind. The numbers visiting JiuZhaiGou went from a few thousand to 100,000s in a decade. BTW when I was in JiuZhaiGou I never got to see the famous lakes ( I think they are filing up to see them in your picture), but I did see huge areas with nobody around, if you went for a hike in any direction you would have been on your own in beautiful valleys and forest (not sure if you are officially allowed to do that or not). They also maintained the national park in a much better condition than Taiwan for example, which would have already turned the lakes into a Sun Moon ghetto. There was over-development in the town of JiuZhaiGou but the surrounding area was virtually untouched.
Lets give credit where it’s due and criticism where it is due.
We all support China through our purchases of goods from there, but actually we support regular Chinese more than anything with those purchases, thereby letting them dream and in many cases achieve better lives than their parents, not something to be sneezed at. The US sends its army around the world invading countries and kidnapping and torturing suspects, placing jails in foreign countries, indiscriminate drone bombing, killing more people than the Chinese government does with it’s executions and labor camps. It does it with a ‘nobler’ aim and yet the results are the same.
So we shouldn’t visit New York and see a yankees game because of this?
I used to have a very negative view of China until I visited it and started doing business with Chinese, they are no different than anywhere else in the world and I greatly admire many of them for their hard work and perserverance and like or dislike them on an individual basis. For instance I have an acquaintance from Xiamen who I can’t help but get on with since we both feel like a fish out of water in Beijing restaurants…having lived in Taiwan a long time he reminds me so much of Taiwanese I know…the fast way of talking, the business ways and ‘making a friend’ not business partner culture, the food and drink he likes, his accented mandarin…meaning to my mind he is more Taiwanese than Chinese…or what I formerly viewed as Chinese if you get my meaning.
Ok we all have our own likes and preferences, we don’t need to justify them at the end of the day but it’s nice to flesh our the so-called reasons for views.
[quote]I’m sure there are lots of nice people in China, but the overwhelming impression I have had from meeting real Chinese people in real places outside China (and I have met many supposedly very intelligent, very open, very well travelled Chinese PhDs etc) is that many of them are nationalistic intolerant unprincipled arseholes who would sell you their neighbour’s daughter for a cigarette. And that’s just the ones overseas! But that’s just my opinion, though one’s opinion is, unfortunately or not, what one bases one’s decisions on. general shittyness from the locals
[/quote]
That is so racist. The only reason this shit will be tolerated is coz I presume you are white and you are talking about a yellow chinaman. If the roles were reversed???
I don’t have any investment in China or Taiwan, but it is annoying how expertise about lands and its peoples can be attained without ever setting foot over there.
BC I hate to talk politics, but please don’t tell me about financing human rights abuses. Taliban, Musharraf, the Shah of Iran and Saddam were not born without someone paying them. And it wasn’t china. These are only the recent ones.
Being executed in your own country, ummmmm Saudi Arabia. So do we boycott their oil??? And keep our precious dollars. Nah. those sheiks are just content to whip their women , and we need them badly. China on the other hand, has bigger plans. If they were content with whipping their women and not taking over the global economy, we would have given the royal IGNORE too.
you didn’t enjoy China. Fair point.
[quote=“divea”]
That is so racist. The only reason this shit will be tolerated is because I presume you are white and you are talking about a yellow chinaman. If the roles were reversed??? [/quote]
Um, no it’s not racist. I have nothing against people who happen to be ethnic Chinese. I mean, I married one. What I don’t like is the feeling that fine upstanding citizens from PRC have given me about their attitudes and their country. I have also chosen not to visit China myself because all those whose opinion I respect who have done so have led me to believe that it is an experience I would not enjoy. That’s it.
divea, no state is ‘clean’. But few states are as ‘dirty’ as China. I had some fun there. But it was also pretty boring, and there are many much nicer countries to visit in the world.
I didn’t meet that many people in China, but I’ve met hundreds of Chinese students in the UK. Let’s just say they’re no ambassadors for their country.
Bc, people are never good ambassadors. Thats why countries strive to have a good diplomatic
core.
People of all cultures and races behave despicably. When not in their own country, they don’t think twice before shagging a robot on the road. They don’t represent the culture or values they come from.
I was being diplomatic. What I really meant was - I really disliked 95% of them - they were stupid, arrogant, racist, nasty and a pain in the arse. I was hired specifically because no-one else wanted them in their classes.
No-one’s disputing your impressions or your right to hold your opinions and go where you like - they are simply explaining their own. A ‘China sucks - no it doesn’t!’ debate is a waste of time.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]Redwagon, you are putting words in my mouth. You are the one claiming China is crap this and crap that so you are setting yourself up for a rebuttal. Anybody knows that’s absurd for such a huge country with 1000s of years of history and culture. People come from all over the world to visit China.
[/quote]What? People coming from all over means China is worth visiting? What kind of logic is that? Next you are going to tell me McDonald’s is a good restaurant because a lot of people eat there. Fail.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]
I am not remotely Chinese but I appreciated all these things on my short visits there (all for business so far).
[/quote]Try living there for a while and report back.
[quote=“headhonchoII”] It’s great being able to speak Chinese and interact with the locals in their own language, rather than bad English in the rest of Asia, also being able to read their signs and some of their inscriptions on their monuments.
[/quote]Do you imagine you are unique in this ability?
[quote=“headhonchoII”]
You prefer the more undeveloped regions, so it’s your personal preferences. I on the other hand believe modern China does have some interesting things going on (both good and bad) and I enjoy to see that aspect too.[/quote]
Now who is putting words into whose mouth? I like traveling in Japan a lot more than China, and that is far from undeveloped. I choose to live in Taiwan, though I have lived in much less developed countries before, like India and Thailand, and you can be assured that I did not struggle by in either place with broken English.
[quote=“Buttercup”]
No-one’s disputing your impressions or your right to hold your opinions and go where you like - they are simply explaining their own. A ‘China sucks - no it doesn’t!’ debate is a waste of time. [/quote]
Yeah and so does ‘don’t give your dollars to evil regimes’ debate.
[quote=“Buttercup”]I was being diplomatic. What I really meant was - I really disliked 95% of them - they were stupid, arrogant, racist, nasty and a pain in the arse. I was hired specifically because no-one else wanted them in their classes.
[/quote]
Like I said to the scientist, let a local come in here and say that 95% of foreigners are stupid, arrogant, racist, nasty and a pain in the arse.
I agree there are what could only be described as racist statements being thrown around here (hell I do the same thing too sometimes I’m no angel).
Taking overseas Chinese as a starting point is a really bad idea. The students are often from privileged backgrounds and many will have been spoilt by their parents who are often corrupt officials or businessmen. The restaurant owners and shopworkers will be afraid to talk with you probably because they are mostly illegal! Then some of the PhDs will be total geeks and lacking in social skills, plus their views may be reinforced from their feelings of isolation overseas.
If you go to a city like Beijing of Shanghai you will meet Chinese from all over China with different languages and backgrounds, they are all just working hard to get ahead and they have their own individual personalities. Most of them are very modest and humble indeed.
Sure there are some nationalistic Chinese, my answer is, so what? There are nationalistic people everywhere. Nationalism’s good points are brings pride in where you are from, wanting things to be better in your country, that has made Chinese proud to develop a better environment for their cities. Many of the problems in Taiwan stem from lack of pride in hometown and country.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]I agree there are what could only be described as racist statements being thrown around here (hell I do the same thing too sometimes I’m no angel).
Taking overseas Chinese as a starting point is a really bad idea. The students are often from privileged backgrounds and many will have been spoilt by their parents who are often corrupt officials or businessmen. The restaurant owners and shopworkers will be afraid to talk with you probably because they are mostly illegal! Then some of the PhDs will be total geeks and lacking in social skills, plus their views may be reinforced from their feelings of isolation overseas.
If you go to a city like Beijing of Shanghai you will meet Chinese from all over China with different languages and backgrounds, they are all just working hard to get ahead and they have their own individual personalities. Most of them are very modest and humble indeed.
Sure there are some nationalistic Chinese, my answer is, so what? There are nationalistic people everywhere. Nationalism’s good points are brings pride in where you are from, wanting things to be better in your country, that has made Chinese proud to develop a better environment for their cities. Many of the problems in Taiwan stem from lack of pride in hometown and country.[/quote]
Yep, and I met some nice people in China. Most people were total arseholes, presumably because I am white and therefore don’t understand Chinese and am rich yet fundamentally inferior and so fair game. Once they know you do speak Chinese, they then get a one track mind and simply rudely harangue you about Taiwan.
hh, you’re right about students, but that’s the main group of people who get rid of any interest I have in China. Kids from ‘good’ backgrounds with an entitlement complex and and over-inflated sense of their own worth. Nasty to their classmates, disrespectful to their teachers, and need a lot of babysit because they can’t / won’t fit in in the UK.
And divea, that was the majority view of the staff, to the extent where teachers quit rather teach them. That’s an interesting view - Chinese people are a ‘race’. Doesn’t that make Taiwan, etc, not Chinese and Tibetans Chinese?
[quote]And divea, that was the majority view of the staff, to the extent where teachers quit rather teach them. That’s an interesting view - Chinese people are a ‘race’. Doesn’t that make Taiwan, etc, not Chinese and Tibetans Chinese?
[/quote]
I am sure the group you got was all that you said and then some more, but they don’t reflect their country. Forget racist, let me say your comments were ‘regionalist’ . If it makes a difference.
BC, you know there is a thread somewhere here, where people are upset about the factt hat Taiwanese view them as ‘you came here coz you couldn’t in your country’. A stupid generalization and the names that were called ranged evrything between EQ challenged to insensitive and racists.
You are basing your judgements on a group of students and your visit to China. Let’s not say you are without prejudice, now or then.
Yes we all do that. And we should be called on it.