Which is why I said it is a generalisation not a hard/fixed rule.
Exactly right, people who call themselves ABC are likely not trying to assert something about their citizenship status or what generation overseas chinese they are.
[quote=" pqkdzrwt"]
Growing up going to a school in a country where they were constantly separated out, teased/picked on for being different, and in many cases outright bullied has quite an impact. In the cases of my friends – as a child they tend to try their hardest to fit in and assimilate to western culture but in most cases they never quite assimilate. As a result of this they end up no longer really feeling like they fit in or belong in Asian culture, and never feel like they fit in / belong in Western culture either. As a result of this you have a group of people who have special brand/type of culture which is neither western or Asian.
…the majority I know subconsciously feel like they dont belong in either their birth country, or their parents country.[/quote]
Yep, I have many many Born-In-Taiwan-Grew-Up-In-North-America (BITGUINA?) friends here, especially of a certain generation, whose experience/condition mirrors that expressed by pqkdzrwt (nice usename, BTW). It’s amazing how much of their actual personality is shaped and influenced by their history.
Exactly right, people who call themselves ABC are likely not trying to assert something about their citizenship status or what generation overseas Chinese they are.[/quote]
I agree with that. And I think a lot of people here are totally missing the point with regards to the “ABC” designation. First of all, ABC as a denomination for certain people of Chinese (and/or Taiwanese) ethnicity who were born or who grew up in the US is something that the local Taiwanese population came up with (probably gaining popularity in the early 80s or even 70s) to discern those Americans who still had roots (meaning family) in Taiwan or China. “ABC” as in the alphabet is just the perfect monicker for those (mostly young) Chinese looking people who speak perfect English but no or only very little or heavy accented Chinese. Nobody here cares about whether it should be “Chinese American” or “Taiwanese American” instead. IMHO, “ABC” with the meaning of “American born Chinese” is not an actual word of the English speaking world, it’s a Taiwanese (or perhaps Chinese?) invention. If you speak with a Taiwanese person and you mention so and so is an “ABC”, everyone instantly has a mental picture of such person and knows exactly what is meant. And usually it doesn’t matter if that person was actually born in the US or not, because the acronym “ABC” is not necessarily meant literally. As long as that person has lived a substantial time of their life in the US so as to be a fluent American English speaker, that would suffice to justify the “ABC” monicker. Thus, it is indeed a kind of slang term and nothing that is used in official language. A
nyway, all I’m trying to say is that it’s utterly pointless for you native English speakers to debate about the correct use of the term “ABC”, because it’s a word originally used in the Chinese language, not the English language. Foreigners who live in Taiwan just adopted the term, but taking it a bit out of context, IMHO.
Exactly right, people who call themselves ABC are likely not trying to assert something about their citizenship status or what generation overseas Chinese they are.[/quote]
I agree with that. And I think a lot of people here are totally missing the point with regards to the “ABC” designation. First of all, ABC as a denomination for certain people of Chinese (and/or Taiwanese) ethnicity who were born or who grew up in the US is something that the local Taiwanese population came up with (probably gaining popularity in the early 80s or even 70s) to discern those Americans who still had roots (meaning family) in Taiwan or China. “ABC” as in the alphabet is just the perfect monicker for those (mostly young) Chinese looking people who speak perfect English but no or only very little or heavy accented Chinese. Nobody here cares about whether it should be “Chinese American” or “Taiwanese American” instead. IMHO, “ABC” with the meaning of “American born Chinese” is not an actual word of the English speaking world, it’s a Taiwanese (or perhaps Chinese?) invention. If you speak with a Taiwanese person and you mention so and so is an “ABC”, everyone instantly has a mental picture of such person and knows exactly what is meant. And usually it doesn’t matter if that person was actually born in the US or not, because the acronym “ABC” is not necessarily meant literally. As long as that person has lived a substantial time of their life in the US so as to be a fluent American English speaker, that would suffice to justify the “ABC” monicker. Thus, it is indeed a kind of slang term and nothing that is used in official language. A
nyway, all I’m trying to say is that it’s utterly pointless for you native English speakers to debate about the correct use of the term “ABC”, because it’s a word originally used in the Chinese language, not the English language. Foreigners who live in Taiwan just adopted the term, but taking it a bit out of context, IMHO.[/quote]
Sorry, with all due respect, I disagree. Words mean what they mean to the people who use them now, not just what they originally meant by the people who invented them.
ABC’s and Bitguina’s are often lumped together in the same category, except for their passport status, by Taiwanese people. I suppose they seem a bit like Irish Americans visiting the old country. In my opinion the first generation ABC’s are often similar to ABC in some general ways, not to stereotype anybody. I usually just call them “bi-cultural Taiwanese”, because there are also Canadian, UK and Australian born people of Taiwanese descent and the whole think gets a bit complicated. “Is she an ABC?” “Yes, she’s from Sydney.” Or how about, “She’s a BBC!”
Exactly right, people who call themselves ABC are likely not trying to assert something about their citizenship status or what generation overseas Chinese they are.[/quote]
I agree with that. And I think a lot of people here are totally missing the point with regards to the “ABC” designation. First of all, ABC as a denomination for certain people of Chinese (and/or Taiwanese) ethnicity who were born or who grew up in the US is something that the local Taiwanese population came up with (probably gaining popularity in the early 80s or even 70s) to discern those Americans who still had roots (meaning family) in Taiwan or China. “ABC” as in the alphabet is just the perfect monicker for those (mostly young) Chinese looking people who speak perfect English but no or only very little or heavy accented Chinese. Nobody here cares about whether it should be “Chinese American” or “Taiwanese American” instead. IMHO, “ABC” with the meaning of “American born Chinese” is not an actual word of the English speaking world, it’s a Taiwanese (or perhaps Chinese?) invention. If you speak with a Taiwanese person and you mention so and so is an “ABC”, everyone instantly has a mental picture of such person and knows exactly what is meant. And usually it doesn’t matter if that person was actually born in the US or not, because the acronym “ABC” is not necessarily meant literally. As long as that person has lived a substantial time of their life in the US so as to be a fluent American English speaker, that would suffice to justify the “ABC” monicker. Thus, it is indeed a kind of slang term and nothing that is used in official language. A
nyway, all I’m trying to say is that it’s utterly pointless for you native English speakers to debate about the correct use of the term “ABC”, because it’s a word originally used in the Chinese language, not the English language. Foreigners who live in Taiwan just adopted the term, but taking it a bit out of context, IMHO.[/quote]
Sorry, with all due respect, I disagree. Words mean what they mean to the people who use them now, not just what they originally meant by the people who invented them.
ABC’s and Bitguina’s are often lumped together in the same category, except for their passport status, by Taiwanese people. I suppose they seem a bit like Irish Americans visiting the old country. In my opinion the first generation ABC’s are often similar to ABC in some general ways, not to stereotype anybody. I usually just call them “bi-cultural Taiwanese”, because there are also Canadian, UK and Australian born people of Taiwanese descent and the whole think gets a bit complicated. “Is she an ABC?” “Yes, she’s from Sydney.” Or how about, “She’s a BBC!”[/quote]
Hey, BITGUINA, you like that, nice one, huh? 
Big John, I still think you need to interpret the term in the context in which it originated. I first heard the term “ABC” probably in 1988 when I was on summer vacation in Taiwan. My brother was taking part in the so-called “Love Boat” tour, a government sponsored tour of Taiwan for young overseas Chinese (usually in their late teens to early 20s) for study, tourism and propaganda purposes. About 90% of the participants came from the US, spoke perfect American English and usually little Chinese. Many, though not all, also had existing family connections to Taiwan. Those guys and girls were the typical “ABC” back in those days. The term made perfect sense to me since “ABC” clearly symbolizes the English language, especially in Taiwan and “American born Chinese” from a Taiwanese perspective was also true in most cases. People usually didn’t think of these people as foreigners but “overseas Chinese living in the US” instead, regardless of their actual citizenship status.
Thus, you could say ABC is a term rooted in Taiwanese culture. To prove this thesis just ask anyone in Taiwan what they think an ABC is and you get more or less similar replies. Try the same in the US and nobody has a clue what you’re talking about. I’m not sure why you guys keep insisting that there’s a clear cut definition of “ABC”, because there’s no such thing. It’s a lose term describing a certain type of person with certain characteristics (ie grew up in North America, ideally the US, and ideally born there, speaks fluent American English, speaks Chinese with American accent, has Chinese or Taiwanese parents, etc). And people who don’t fit these characteristics simply aren’t considered ABC here even today. So a guy with Taiwanese parents who was born in Sydney and who speaks perfect Australian English would not be an ABC (in that regard “American” is very much a defining characteristic, IMHO).
Well, not always; sometimes they actually get much more crap. For example, in your case some of the purer crap-giving posts have been siphoned off into another thread in a kind of alchemist’s quest for the quintessence of crap, the Philosopher’s Stone of Crap, if you will.
Oh, and daoni: if you should have any difficulties getting a job on account of your having The Ethnic Identity That Dare Not Speak Its Name, just wave the Stars and Stripes around and tell everybody how proud you are to be an American, and those job offers should just start rolling in.
these terms are practical, and they serve a purpose in TW explaining both limited Chinese, and excellent English.
“Oh, Tony’s English is very good.”
“He’s an ABC…”
“ahhh…”
or
“Oh, Amy you cannot write Chinese very well.”
“I am an ABC.”
“Oh, I see.”
for some, you’re just a slanty-eyed FOB no matter where you are born.
[quote=“jimipresley”]
Absolutely. What’s this “African American/ABC” crap? You’re an American. I know it’s a cross to bear, but live with it! I don’t go around calling myself a “European South African” and SatelliteTV sure as hell don’t go around calling himself an “Australian born Taiwanese”. I’m a South African; he’s Taiwanese. But I suppose this is for another thread.[/quote]
SatTV is Taiwanese?? Who knew?
This is complete nonsense. I went to school (in Australia) with tons of Asians, mostly of either Vietnamese or Hong Kong descent. We had guys whose families had been in Australia for generations (in some cases, since the gold rushes of the second half of the 19th Century) who went to the school for many years. Then we had the guys who came over to the school for the last few years of high school so they could get into an Australian university (my school was a P to 12 school, i.e. had all thirteen years of school, and the school actually had a programme to recruit overseas students). We adopted the term ABC from the Asians, who used it to distinguish between those who had been born in Australia and those who were recent (often temporary) arrivals. Clearly, this was neither a Taiwanese thing nor an American thing. Also, it was sometimes even used (by the white guys) for those of Vietnamese descent (who had all been born in Australia or arrived when they were very young).
This is complete nonsense. I went to school (in Australia) with tons of Asians, mostly of either Vietnamese or Hong Kong descent. We had guys whose families had been in Australia for generations (in some cases, since the gold rushes of the second half of the 19th Century) who went to the school for many years. Then we had the guys who came over to the school for the last few years of high school so they could get into an Australian university (my school was a P to 12 school, i.e. had all thirteen years of school, and the school actually had a programme to recruit overseas students). We adopted the term ABC from the Asians, who used it to distinguish between those who had been born in Australia and those who were recent (often temporary) arrivals. Clearly, this was neither a Taiwanese thing nor an American thing. Also, it was sometimes even used (by the white guys) for those of Vietnamese descent (who had all been born in Australia or arrived when they were very young).[/quote]
It’s not nonsense. Obviously, we’re talking about the term in the context of Taiwan, not Australia (we’re on forumosa, remember?) It’s totally irrelevant to the discussion what people use the term in Australia for. For instance, in Germany in the 1980s “ABC” was often understood as “atomic, biological, chemical” and referred to weapons of mass destruction. During that period everyone understood the meaning when something like “ABC protection gear”, etc was mentioned. But that too is totally irrelevant to the discussion, just like your post above.
Except that in the case of ABC in Australia, it’s pretty similar to ABC in America, except the A stands for Australian, not American. Clearly they’re analogous and my point is not irrelevant, whereas your point about Atomic, Biological, Chemical being used in Germany is a complete strawman.
I dispute the claim that the term ABC in the U.S. necessarily applies to Taiwanese. Plenty of the ABCs (of either persuasion), BBCs, or CBCs actually have ancestry in Hong Kong or Southern China and their parents speak Cantonese, not Mandarin (and certainly not Taiwanese). It’s hard to say whether the terms ABC, BBC or CBC originated independently from each other or were copied from an original term (probably the American ABC), and it’s hard to say whether they originated with ABCs, BBCs or CBCs in the West, or were brought there. However, given that a fair number of them don’t seem to have any Taiwanese ancestry or other relationship to Taiwan, I don’t think there is strong evidence that it originated in Taiwan or with Taiwanese who had moved to the West.
You’re looking at this in a completely parochial way. What, because a couple of dozen Americans of Taiwanese origin went on a tour of Taiwan in the late 80s, that accounts for the entire broader Chinese diaspora and any terms they may use? You’re having a laugh, dude. How would you even begin to prove that this term predates all other uses of ABC/BBC/CBC, and that is the originator of the term, or the instance of the term that actually caught on?
Where it stands for Australian-born Chinese, Partridge’s slang dictionary seems to have it going back to about 1950. It mentions American-born Chinese but doesn’t give the year for it. Eric Partridge and Paul Beale, A dictionary of slang and unconventional English
Caveat: Because of optical character recognition, sometimes dates are extremely inaccurate in Google News Archives. But I think the dates below are OK.
The expression “American-born Chinese” (without the abbreviation) can be found in the August 10, 1884, edition of the New York Times.
For the letters ABC associated with the phrase American-born Chinese, here’s the Chicago Tribune of November 16, 1969 (some minor guesswork was used because some characters on the source page may be misplaced or missing because of optical character recognition): [quote]Two groups called the F. O. B. (fresh on board) and A. B. C. (American-born Chinese). . . .[/quote] url=http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=abc%27s+%22american+born+chinese%22&num=10&as_price=p0&as_user_ldate=1800&as_user_hdate=1990&scoring=a&hl=en&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=1968&as_hdate=1969&lnav=hist4[/url]
In the newspapers of the Google news archives, the expression “Australian-born Chinese” (without the abbreviation) first appears in 1909 (in New Zealand newspapers). url=http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22australian+born+chinese%22&num=10&as_price=p0&as_user_ldate=1800&as_user_hdate=1990&scoring=a&hl=en&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=1908&as_hdate=1909&lnav=hist4[/url]
Where it means Australian-born Chinese, I can’t trace ABC further back than 1981 in Google’s news archives url=http://news.google.com/archivesearch?num=10&as_price=p0&as_user_ldate=1800&as_user_hdate=1990&scoring=a&hl=en&q=abc%27s+%22australian+born+chinese%22&spell=1[/url], but as I said earlier, Partridge, above, appears to say it goes back to around 1950.
Ask anyone in Taiwan what ABC means and they’ll give you similar answers, because tons of their friends emigrated to America and brought/had kids.
Ask any Asian American and they’ll give you the same answer, too-- not because they learned its definition from the people “back home,” but because this term was useful for them as Americans.
Just because the significance of a term is limited to a certain population (ie. “most of the whiteys don’t give a shit”) doesn’t mean it’s not an “official” or “valid” word. And yes, the term “ABC” (etc.) does exist in the English language (disregarding the fact that it is obviously an acronym of English words…). My friends and I have used it many times, no doubt teaching it to others who hadn’t heard it before, and we were all speaking English.
Ask anyone in Taiwan what ABC means and they’ll give you similar answers, because tons of their friends emigrated to America and brought/had kids.
Ask any Asian American and they’ll give you the same answer, too-- not because they learned its definition from the people “back home,” but because this term was useful for them as Americans.
Just because the significance of a term is limited to a certain population (ie. “most of the whiteys don’t give a shit”) doesn’t mean it’s not an “official” or “valid” word. And yes, the term “ABC” (etc.) does exist in the English language (disregarding the fact that it is obviously an acronym of English words…). My friends and I have used it many times, no doubt teaching it to others who hadn’t heard it before, and we were all speaking English.[/quote]
What I don’t understand is why do you (the general “you”) feel it is better than Taiwanese American or Chinese American?
Other Asian Americans use terms like Japanese American (not ABJ), Korean American (not ABK) or Thai American (not ABT). Taiwanese American, for example sums it up perfectly. American (national/citizen of Taiwanese descent), whereas ABT means a person born in America who is Taiwanese (i.e. a Taiwanese citizen), which is more often than not incorrect as they’re always posting on the flob about how to get a passport, citizenship and avoid military service if they do etc…
Please don’t misunderstand. I have no problem with either term, it just seems to me that ABC/ABT is fundamentally incorrect as it assumes the person wasn’t only born in America (and therefore an American citizen), but is also a Chinese or Taiwanese citizen. If you’re not a Taiwanese citizen, you’re not Taiwanese. Period. So you can’t be an American Born Taiwanese, only a Taiwanese American, i.e. an American of Taiwanese descent…
I do understand what you guys mean by usage etc, but usage doesn’t make it correct.
That said, nothing we say here will affect the way ABT/ABC is used in the US or in Taiwan, but I’, simply giving my opinion on the matter, as are you. Either way, no hassle, I’m just trying to understand the reasons for the use of the term(s).
Personally, if someone ever tells me they’re ABC, I’ll ask them, “So you’re a PRC citizen?” If they answer in the negative I’ll venture they aren’t an ABC then, 'cos they aren’t Chinese. They’re American of Chinese descent, Chinese American. Just like I’m of British (Scots and English) descent, but I’m not British, so I can’t call myself a [color=#FF0000]ABB (African born Brit)[/color], but I could call myself an English South African (although I prefer to just say I’m South African, which is the truth of the matter, just like no matter what creed or color you are, if you’re American, that’s all you are unless you hold dual citizenship). 
But to each his own. I’d never call an “African” American a n*****, but if they choose to call themselves that, that’s their own business.
Edit: See highlighted text above.
Thandi Newton is one of the few that could call herself an ABB (African born Brit). She’s British and she was born in Africa. Just like Charlize Theron could call herself an ABA,(African Born American) because she’s an American citizen born in Africa. She’s also one of the very select few (like Obama) who are truly AFRICAN Americans as opposed to Americans whose ancestors came FROM Africa several generations ago (some as long ago as 300 or 350 years ago and ceased to speak anything even closely resembling an African language centuries ago, whereas Charlize can speak at least one African language fluently).
[quote=“bismarck”]What I don’t understand is why do you (the general “you”) feel it is better than Taiwanese American or Chinese American?[/quote] Because they, and not you, have the charge of the operation of their minds and bodies.
[quote=“bismarck”]Personally, if someone ever tells me they’re ABC, I’ll ask them, “So you’re a PRC citizen?” If they answer in the negative I’ll venture they aren’t an ABC then, 'cos they aren’t Chinese. They’re American of Chinese descent, Chinese American.[/quote] You’ll “correct” them about who they are. Amazing.
Ask anyone in Taiwan what ABC means and they’ll give you similar answers, because tons of their friends emigrated to America and brought/had kids.
Ask any Asian American and they’ll give you the same answer, too-- not because they learned its definition from the people “back home,” but because this term was useful for them as Americans.
Just because the significance of a term is limited to a certain population (ie. “most of the whiteys don’t give a shit”) doesn’t mean it’s not an “official” or “valid” word. And yes, the term “ABC” (etc.) does exist in the English language (disregarding the fact that it is obviously an acronym of English words…). My friends and I have used it many times, no doubt teaching it to others who hadn’t heard it before, and we were all speaking English.[/quote]
What I don’t understand is why do you (the general “you”) feel it is better than Taiwanese American or Chinese American?
Other Asian Americans use terms like Japanese American (not ABJ), Korean American (not ABK) or Thai American (not ABT). Taiwanese American, for example sums it up perfectly. American (national/citizen of Taiwanese descent), whereas ABT means a person born in America who is Taiwanese (i.e. a Taiwanese citizen), which is more often than not incorrect as they’re always posting on the flob about how to get a passport, citizenship and avoid military service if they do etc…
Please don’t misunderstand. I have no problem with either term, it just seems to me that ABC/ABT is fundamentally incorrect as it assumes the person wasn’t only born in America (and therefore an American citizen), but is also a Chinese or Taiwanese citizen. If you’re not a Taiwanese citizen, you’re not Taiwanese. Period. So you can’t be an American Born Taiwanese, only a Taiwanese American, i.e. an American of Taiwanese descent…
I do understand what you guys mean by usage etc, but usage doesn’t make it correct.
That said, nothing we say here will affect the way ABT/ABC is used in the US or in Taiwan, but I’, simply giving my opinion on the matter, as are you. Either way, no hassle, I’m just trying to understand the reasons for the use of the term(s).
Personally, if someone ever tells me they’re ABC, I’ll ask them, “So you’re a PRC citizen?” If they answer in the negative I’ll venture they aren’t an ABC then, 'cos they aren’t Chinese. They’re American of Chinese descent, Chinese American. Just like I’m of British (Scots and English) descent, but I’m not British, so I can’t call myself a [color=#FF0000]ABB (African born Brit)[/color], but I could call myself an English South African (although I prefer to just say I’m South African, which is the truth of the matter, just like no matter what creed or color you are, if you’re American, that’s all you are unless you hold dual citizenship).
But to each his own. I’d never call an “African” American a n*****, but if they choose to call themselves that, that’s their own business.
Edit: See highlighted text above.
Thandi Newton is one of the few that could call herself an ABB (African born Brit). She’s British and she was born in Africa. Just like Charlize Theron could call herself an ABA,(African Born American) because she’s an American citizen born in Africa. She’s also one of the very select few (like Obama) who are truly AFRICAN Americans as opposed to Americans whose ancestors came FROM Africa several generations ago (some as long ago as 300 or 350 years ago and ceased to speak anything even closely resembling an African language centuries ago, whereas Charlize can speak at least one African language fluently).[/quote]
No problem, bismarck. I actually never imagined that ABC and its cousins would be so contested here.
I use ABC/ABT because it is the most accurate description of myself. A Taiwanese American could be anyone who has Taiwanese ancestry. An ABT is, in general, a kid who grew up in the US with Taiwan-raised parents. There are a ton more personal identity implications there relating to being 2nd generation, the child of immigrants, growing up in a conservative household in a liberal society, having certain ideas about education/money/etc. etc.-- basically all the things pqkdzrwt mentioned. “Taiwanese American” doesn’t automatically come with any of those. Saying “ABT” isn’t necessarily crucial when I’m asking an inane question about I-don’t-even-remember on an internet forum, but it’s just what pops into my head first. Of course I don’t think one term is better than the other, and I doubt most other people using “ABC” do either.
I’m assuming that there aren’t so many “ABJ’s” or “ABK’s” in part because the term must have originated among Taiwanese and Chinese people, in part because Korean/Japanese/etc. immigration in recent decades hasn’t reached the craziness of the Chinese diaspora… And also because a lot of Asian people probably thought, “teehee ABC is such a clever term” and started spreading it around (ABT/etc. obviously will never catch on in the same way except as derived forms).
Another source of the confusion might be just the word “Taiwanese”-- whereas it seems like foreigners (er, excluding myself for a moment here) see it as marking citizenship, I and many other Asian Americans use it as a race/ethnicity marker. I would not for a moment say that I am not Taiwanese, even though I have not spent a total of more than 3 months of my life in Taiwan. So saying “ABT” really isn’t “incorrect” usage of the word “Taiwanese.”
[quote=“divea”][quote=“jimipresley”]
Absolutely. What’s this “African American/ABC” crap? You’re an American. I know it’s a cross to bear, but live with it! I don’t go around calling myself a “European South African” and SatelliteTV sure as hell don’t go around calling himself an “Australian born Taiwanese”. I’m a South African; he’s Taiwanese. But I suppose this is for another thread.[/quote]
SatTV is Taiwanese?? Who knew?[/quote]
Shhhhhh! He’s not really “Taiwanese”, he’s more like “Taiwan? I’m one of 'ese!”