A few others, “Many different factors can trigger menstrual disorders, such as hormone imbalances, genetic factors, clotting disorders, and pelvic diseases.” Taken from: http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_causes_severe_menstrual_cramps_000100_3.htm Other possible causes are listed there as well. I am no doctor and only knew to search for specific underlying causes due to experience. I have no doubt there are others.
Perhaps in some cases the need for hormone ‘regulation’ as you put it is in fact an idiopathic condition but to say that IS simply the way it is in a blanketed statement is far from correct or informed. BC pills are used to manage the menstrual symptoms of a number of the above mentioned, underlying causes. However (as I stated before numerous times) the root problem is not properly addressed in many cases. I have known more than a few ladies who were prescribed BC pills as teenagers to regulate their menstrual cycles only to find out 15-20 years later when they went off the pill in order to get pregnant that their underlying condition that caused the Dr to prescribe them BC pills never went away, was left untreated and still needed to be addressed.
Weeeeell, I’m in Tainan, and in ten years I’ve only met one girl who’s had an abortion. The rest have all been on the pill, been extremely strict on condoms, had an IUD or a combination.
I guess now the counter argument is going to be they just weren’t being honest or something. sigh
[quote=“Mr He”]The figure is too high to make sense, 200,000 yes, but 500,000??? We have 12 million women on this island, 3/4 of which are not fertile due to age related issues, with 1/3 of the rest not being sexually active, that means that sexually active women of childbearing age on average get an abortion every 4 years.
Birth control pills are readily available here, and someone must be using the condoms for sale everywhere.[/quote]
I agree. I call BS on this. From my experience of hearsay (what the girls tell me) is that it’s generally the guys who are unwilling to wear condoms. Hence, the girls I have known tend to take matters into their own hands with at least one form of birth control, with the IUD being rather popular. But who knows, maybe the girls up north are less educated in these matters.
And if anything, I have only met several foreign guys who have gotten their girlfriends in the family way and forced them to have an abortion. One guy admitted to double digits in 7 years.
From my experience, when a Taiwanese couple have gotten in “trouble” they have more often than not tied the knot. Then again, maybe I just run with a different crowd. Who knows?
And even if it is 500k, what are the numbers for the US, Canada, Australia, any European country etc etc? I’d like to know that.
Oh wait, Google!
That’s an average of 1.42 million a year. Kind of makes 500 000 pale in comparison, even if that figure is correct, which I doubt.
Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000
Abortion averages:
Worldwide, the lifetime average is about 1 abortion per woman.[/quote]
South Africa - 1997 to 2010 = 1 039 003. Before 1997 it was illegal to have an abortion in the RSA except in the case of rape, health risk to the fetus or mental health issues with the mother.
England and Wales - 2003 to 2008 = 1 188 440 (The data goes back to 1958, so, several million, roughly 7.6 million, but I didn’t want to calculate it all).
Canada - Incomplete stats and years by province and territory, but a quick look suggests a few million in the last 20 to 30 years.
Northern Ireland - 1971 to 2008, approx 58 000. No Stats available for Ireland itself. Would’ve been interesting to see, as they’re Catholic, hence no BC allowed, right?
But enough, already. Go see here for your self: Abortion statistics and other data
Point is, everywhere else seems to be having a shite load more abortions than Taiwan, but this thread seems hell bent (except for a few folks who seem to see reason) on making Taiwanese out to be soulless morally devoid, uneducated idiots too stupid to use BC or condoms who prefer to have abortions to solve the problems of their selfish sexual pursuits of pleasure. I say horse shit. So do the statistics. Unless, of course, the lot of rage and vitriol is directed at abortion in general, in which case I suggest you pack off back home and do some lobbying or whatever it is you do in your home country to stop abortion there, because they sure as shit are aborting a shit load of fetuses wherever any of you/us come from.
Btw, Biz, I agree the stat is almost certainly bullshit especially as Mr He says, there are a huge percentage of women in the 30s and 40s who do not date, and many of whom have never had sex.
But you seem to be mixing up yearly stats with those over a much longer period of time. From what I’ve read Canada has about 200,000 a year. With 1.5x the population of Taiwan.
Also even if the US has 1.2 million a year, they have 15 times the population of Taiwan so on average the rate is far far lower.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]Btw, Biz, I agree the stat is almost certainly bullshit especially as Mr He says, there are a huge percentage of women in the 30s and 40s who do not date, and many of whom have never had sex.
But you seem to be mixing up yearly stats with those over a much longer period of time. From what I’ve read Canada has about 200,000 a year. With 1.5x the population of Taiwan.[/quote]
Apologies, but I was just quickly putting up what a quick Google search unearthed. The links are there with all the info for those souls who would like something more particular.
Damn, Confuzius, sounds like you’ve had a really bad experience with the pill. I’m guessing your monthly problems continued and the doctor was a bit slow moving on to a new prognosis?
I took the pill from 17 - 21 and it was a life-changer. I had the heaviest, most emotional periods during my teenage years and it was hell (though i suppose I was lucky in that I didn’t have pain). It’s only anecdotal evidence, but almost every girl I know’s period improved when on the pill, and I can only think of two who ended up having a different problem (both diagnosed after different pills failed to help them out, though in one friend’s case it took her doctor years - I’m not sure if I should blame the doctor there or blame the mother for being a hypochondriac). I went off the pill when I moved overseas and couldn’t find the same brand and discovered (to my delight) that my periods were now pretty light and weren’t sending me crazy.
NOW the pill makes me fat and turns me into a psychotic, emotional bitch, so I don’t take it anymore. It was great when I was younger though. Most of my friends are still on it and don’t seem to have any problems with it.
Bix, dunno where you’re meeting all these smart girls. Haven’t run into anyone who’s admitted to having a decent head on her shoulders yet (at least… who wasn’t a virgin. Wait, I lie, there was one girl in my university). But sex ed here really IS lacking.
Weeeeell, I’m in Tainan, and in ten years I’ve only met one girl who’s had an abortion. The rest have all been on the pill, been extremely strict on condoms, had an IUD or a combination.
I guess now the counter argument is going to be they just weren’t being honest or something. sigh
[/quote]
At the risk of being totally flamed - I’ve never been with a Taiwanese girl who even asked about condoms.
Of course I’m not saying all girls are like that, just for me, to hear of such a high abortion rate doesn’t shock me.
Weeeeell, I’m in Tainan, and in ten years I’ve only met one girl who’s had an abortion. The rest have all been on the pill, been extremely strict on condoms, had an IUD or a combination.
I guess now the counter argument is going to be they just weren’t being honest or something. sigh
[/quote]
At the risk of being totally flamed - I’ve never been with a Taiwanese girl who even asked about condoms.
Of course I’m not saying all girls are like that, just for me, to hear of such a high abortion rate doesn’t shock me.[/quote]
Fair enough, that does happen, and has happened to me quite often in the past. But those girls were all on some sort of birth control and thought it unnecessary until I told them of the plethora of STDs they could be getting.
So, are we talking about taking a morning-after pill, or an abortion?
the two are completely different.
The morning after pill is taken prophylactically “just in case” to prevent implantation of a fertilised egg. In the vast majority of cases, there will have been no fertilisation, and in the vast majority of cases where fertilisation did take place, there is no successful implantation of the egg in the womb.
Abortions are conducted on an already implanted embryo (if very early, it’s possible to do this with a drug that promotes womb contractions, etc.) .
Sales of the morning after pill in no way equates to the number of abortions, as they don’t cause.
Sorry, I don’t know what pill is being referred to here, but i suspect it’s the morning after pill, so not at all a count of abortions.
EDIT:
I just read the actual article, and it is the abortifacient RU-486 that the premise is based on, not the so-called morning after pill… However, sales of a drug do not equal the number of times that the drug is actually used, nor that all of the drugs are actually consumed in the country of Taiwan: many doses are probably smuggled out of Taiwan to places that don’t sell RU-486.
Wait wait wait wait wait. When you say ‘the pill’ we’re talking about the contraceptive pill, otherwise people say ‘the morning after pill’ or ‘the abortion drug/RU486’.
Interestingly enough, the few times I’ve had to take the morning after pill here and then chatted about it when my friends (it turns me into an emotional bitch as well, though it gives me HUGE boobs for the month) they immediately assume I’m talking about RU486. I got the same reaction from a Japanese friend (though it was from a guy). Most girls were pleasantly surprised to learn that there was a morning after pill, even if you’re not supposed to take it very often.
Neither the pill nor the morning after pill induce abortions. Both can stop a fertilised egg from implanting, but they are not abortion drugs (unless you’re some crazy fundamentalist Christian who has issues with scientific facts).
RU486 I can’t talk about, because I’ve never had it. But if that was the pill that was being discussed as causing infertility etc. - I can believe that. Abortions of any kind come with a risk of infertility, amongst other fun things.
If the abortion rate really is that high here, maybe it’s one of the factors contributing to the low birth rate among married couples?
I was wondering about that. I know quite a few couples who want to have kids but can’t, and a few others who have had various forms of fertility intervention. Despite what the gov’t says, the low birth rate isn’t entirely about lifestyle choices.
I wouldn’t ask, but can’t help wondering how many of those have had previous abortion(s). Bismarck’s experience and stats notwithstanding, it does seem like abortifacient drugs are used more often and more carelessly in Taiwan, as a substitute for actual contraception. Although I suppose environmental pollutants (endocrine disruption) might have a lot to do with the fertility issue too.
This paper says that in 1991-1992, 48% of women who attended a family planning clinc in Taipei had had at least 1 induced abortion.
This story, on the same stats released last year, gives a more thorough breakdown:[quote]
According to Chao Kun-yu, deputy director-general of the Bureau of Health Promotion, 180,000 to 190,000 legal abortions took place every year in Taiwan from 2006 to 2009, down from 210,437 in 2004.
I was wondering about that. I know quite a few couples who want to have kids but can’t, and a few others who have had various forms of fertility intervention. Despite what the gov’t says, the low birth rate isn’t entirely about lifestyle choices.
I wouldn’t ask, but can’t help wondering how many of those have had previous abortion(s). Bismarck’s experience and stats notwithstanding, it does seem like abortifacient drugs are used more often and more carelessly in Taiwan, as a substitute for actual contraception. Although I suppose environmental pollutants (endocrine disruption) might have a lot to do with the fertility issue too.[/quote]
Well, in Mainland abortion is used as the primary “contraceptive”. Dunno how that will work long run. In Taiwan, no studies have mentioned if previous abortions will have that effect, but the main factor still being age: less chances for eggs to stick if less eggs/walls are too thick. Could be but we see the same phenomena in the west, or what I call, if you are less than 18 and broke, you will get pregnant from a pair of underwear hanging two houses over. If you are 40 and have a stable marriage, it is going to take an Act of God.
And yes, I do not want to think about what all the plastic/pollutants do to our bodies, mainly, the hormone upheavals.
There is one factor about those abortions that is mostly cultural, and it is not the single motherhood: the fact that most of the fetuses are female. Ther eis a strong likelyhood the baby will remain if a boy, not as much if a girl.
My point was just that although Taiwan has a fairly high rate of abortion (approx 200k/annum is rather steep for a population of 23 million), most other countries, and especially the countries most of us come from have fairly steep rates, also. Especially considering the Judeo-Christian (sp?) tradition in most western nations. Countries like Taiwan don’t have that religio cultural background and with the cultural slant towards male heirs it’s not surprising that the per 100 000 ratio is slightly higher.
Sure, education plays a role (And isn’t that equally true for many societal factions in western countries and elsewhere?), but I think many posters here have unfairly marked Taiwanese as somehow morally deficient for choosing this path when it’s equally, if not more so, accessible in the countries we come from, with very high rates themselves. I just feel that if you want to jump on the band wagon against Taiwanese abortion rates it’s slightly hypocritical considering what goes on back where we all come from, and that if one insists on making a case, at least do so equally and denounce abortion everywhere as equally bad. Afterall, what’s the difference between 100k or 200k per annum except a few digits? If it bothers you as being “murder” then surely one is as bad as any higher factor?
Abortion is abortion. Either you’re for it, or against it. Choose a side, but don’t bash a nation. Personally, I’m anti-abortion and I think what goes on here is as horrifying as what goes on anywhere else regarding this topic, but I respect other people’s choices on the matter as far as their own lives are concerned. One and all.
I think much of the problem is the fact that Sex Education or Guidance classes are not a big part of the curriculum here. It’s taught but other subjects like Math and Science are considered far more important. Many schools who still have " old guard " teachers are not comfortable in teaching the younger generation about how their bodies function and emotions. Many students here are still forbidden by their families to date or have a relationship with the other sex until college. This causes lack of experience in having a relationship, expressing feelings and real life experience. This lack of proper education may cause the lack of understanding on how their bodies work. ( Also I know for a fact that many mother’s here in Taiwan search weekly/monthly throughout their daughter’s rooms, purses, and bathroom wastebaskets, looking for evidence of sexual conduct and counting their daughters menstrual pads to ensure they are not pregnant. When one of my Taiwanese g/f’s got pregnant, she borrowed used pads from another friend to hide this fact ) So obtaining and hiding " the pill " container might prove to be difficult from an over zealous mother. My statement doesn’t explain all the abortions had, but may explain why many of younger teens have abortions.
Personally I also think abortion should be readily available without prejudice or moralizing, although I’d say there’s a big distinction between abortion of a clump of undifferentiated cells and an almost-viable human. Most of the abortions that happen here seem to be of the first kind (chemically-induced), often as a substitute for proper contraception. I have a problem with that because for any normal human being, it’s psychologically traumatizing, for the man as well as the woman, and it stays with you. Possibly people don’t realise that until it’s over and done with. I didn’t.
I think this attitude is really just a general extension of the blase attitude to technology, which is often used thoughtlessly, inappropriately, or with no real understanding of its effects and side-effects. Yes, I know I was arguing earlier for chemical contraception, but if used properly the benefits seem to outweigh the problems. I get the impression the main problem with chemical contraception (used on a large scale) is pollution of water supplies with estrogenic compounds, but that’s a problem with our attitude to sewage disposal, not some inherent problem with the drug.
No, I must say I’ve not heard of any publicized studies either (and I did check, a long time ago). All I’ve heard is an anecdote from a friend’s obstetrician, who thinks on the basis of experience that abortifacient drugs can cause birth complications (she didn’t mention anything about fertility).
Anyway, Bis, we know it goes on at a high rate in our own countries, but the rates are (somewhat) lower simply because contraception is more readily available and easier to discuss with your doctor, education is better, and (like it or not) because having multiple abortions is considered shameful. 200K is worse than 100K whereever it happens. It’ll never be zero, but it’s bad for the same reason road accidents are bad: it’s largely avoidable, and it leaves scars, sometimes visible, sometimes not.
I have never been with an Asian person who asked to use/forced me to use/knew how to use a condom. I will go on record and say that. When I was adamant about it, the answer every time has been “you don’t need it, it’s okay…”. I’m not afraid of what (lack of diseases) I have, I’m afraid of what you have. I like being clean, and avoiding the worst STD of all, PREGNANCY. What scares me the most is that a lot of people don’t actually know how to use a condom. Guys and girls the same. They stare at it all intrigued. Did they not have that video in 7th grade health class with the cucumber?
I’ve also noticed the phenomenon when a girl has sex for the first time when she’s 21 and becomes a massive whore. A lot of my classmates are going through that right now. They sleep with one guy then BAM, within one week has slept with half of Taipei. In the US, most of us have had sex before leaving high school, and personally, I think that’s the right time. You are both naive and someone isn’t gonna trick you into some weird kinky stuff because you both don’t know what that is yet.
This number seems a little too high because whenever this topic has come up with friends they seem so morally opposed to abortion. Maybe it’s the “I don’t want to look like an asshole in this group of friends because I agree with killing babies” or something like that.
[color=#FF0000]Moderator’s Note[/color]: [color=#FF0000]And probably offensive to most. Do not click on the link if Dead Baby Jokes offend you.[/color]
Which reminds me…dead-baby-joke.com/
[quote=“finley”]
Anyway, Bis, we know it goes on at a high rate in our own countries, but the rates are (somewhat) lower simply because contraception is more readily available and easier to discuss with your doctor, education is better, and (like it or not) because having multiple abortions is considered shameful. [/quote]
As they damn well should be. With the contraceptive options available today, generally with a 1% failure rate if used correctly, there is no excuse for an accidental pregnancy other than ignorance or laziness (unless you have really, really bad luck - I read a story recently about a girl for whom the condom broke, the morning after pill then failed, and the surgical abortion she had at 5 1/2 weeks failed to. She had to have another abortion at 2 months and was absolutely distraught, but since she’d taken so many drugs before the first abortion she was worried there’d be something wrong with the baby so she had to go through with it (I’d be tempted to keep it too - super-strong baby)). Multiple abortions means you were repeatedly stupid or lazy, or a combination of the two.
And yes, we’re all stupid or lazy sometimes, and admitting it isn’t a bad thing. If a girl tells me she’s had one or two abortions I think ‘you poor thing’. If any number above three gets bandied about I start thinking there’s something seriously wrong with you (unless there were serious medical issues, but I still can’t see that number going over 2…). Maybe I’m a judgemental bitch, but having a bajillion abortions is wrong and, more importantly, bad for your health.
Oh my god. PLEASE tell me you’re making that up. That’s fucked up.
[color=#FF0000]And probably offensive to most. Do not click on the link if Dead Baby Jokes offend you.[/color]