About faith.(No grumpy atheists or agnostics please. :) )

Thanks for your post sheepshagger.

Just a clarification for you. What I basically worded by saying “no grumpy” is that I know that many posters take the religion subject at heart and it’s easy with this topic for posters to become aggravated by one another. Any views whatsoever, including yours are welcome but in an atmosphere of mutual respect. That’s all. There is no reason why we couldn’t discuss the concept of faith here. If you do not agree with what others post ,(including myself) you are more than welcome to post your dissenting views.

That’s what you just did anyways isn’t it?(posting your dissenting views) It’s your opinion and it’s your right to express it. :wink:

I guess I could have written no to grumpy religious people as well. My bad if it appeared partial to you and others. I can see that you have a valid point. Hopefully now we can hear a bit more about how you deal with the difficulties and the pleasures in your life in relation with faith, have it or not.

bobepine

Please. Tell me wtf that means to you - and me.

BTW, I am well aware that you picked the Pistons over the Spurs. So don’t fudge too much, PP, I’ve got my eye pealed, you lowly Canuck you. :laughing:[/quote]
Martel beat back the Moors in 732. You say I’m arguing that, thus, Christianity in North America would have been wiped out?

P.S. I may be a lowly Canuck, but today I ate real Korean food in Toronto’s Koreatown (note to those who didn’t get the memo - Korean food is rated as approximately 19 times better than Taiwanese food), and then traipsed for ten kilometres throughout the city’s wondrously alive and cosmopolitan urban fabric in sunny, breezy and dry 32-degree weather.

In other words, you didn’t do what I did today : )

Faith is very abstract, as abstract as it gets I think. I have little hope that anyone could clarify that for me but I aimed to hear a bit about how others cope with this concept in their day to day lives. The world isn’t doing very well and faith seems to be a primary source of struggle for the society and a majority of its individuals IMO.

I was raised by Christians, we didn’t go to church every Sunday but “holidays” like x-mas or easter were mandatory. Regardless, one doesn’t need to be raised by religious people nowadays in order to be exposed to religious beliefs and its consequences, both good ones and bad ones and on both a personnal level and as part of a faith driven society.

This said, here’s a sensitive string for me:

[quote][quote=“Tainan Cowboy”]Faith in a higher power is a bedrock for ones life.
Believing that someone or something is there to help when trouble occurs is not a weakness, its part of humanities bond with the everlasting.
And its a choice freely given. No cost attached.
It also can require a submersion of ones ego and this can be a personal problem for some.[/quote]

Like Taj Mahal says…
Quote:
You’re gonna need somebody on your bond,
You’re gonna need somebody on your bond child.
When it’s late, 'round midnight and old man death comes slippin
into your room,
You’re gonna need somebody on your bond.[/quote]

That’s intimidating to me. Nothing else and it is in good parts what triggers my inhability to feel fulfilled and satisfied through religious faith. It’s all about having faith religious people will tell you. Once you have faith, you do not fear but you feel comforted instead.

That just doesn’t ring a bell for me and it confuses me instead. What is this magic that will take over my starving logical mind and make me into a fulfilled religious minded individual if I open my heart to Jesus for example? In other words, how is your day to day life affected by faith is basically what I’m asking. If it’s through ego submersion as you mentioned TC, I’d like to know how it’s done, that’s still far too abstract.

Telling me I should fear the day I will die doesn’t help me. Having to live up to Jesus’s words is overwhelming, the difficulties in my private life can not logically be due to lack of faith although religious people will tend to disagree with me while society and politics are all about religion and building machine guns at the same time. To sum it up, it doesn’t add up for me.

It’s difficult to express my agnostic views without sounding atheist. It’s difficult to ask for insights and not sound like I’m arguing them. I invited anyone to discuss the concept of faith with an emphasis on religious faith because it’s something that is described as indispensable by many and as I said, I don’t think I can dismiss it all together.

I think my relation with religion and the concept of faith makes me fear death in a way and it also makes me leasy. I prefer an approach similar to Stray Dog’s when it comes to faith. Believing will achieve wonders but faith is too abstract and all you will achieve would in consequences be abstract too. Believing in God isn’t helping the world one bit right now…Believing in peace would be a different story. On a personal level, believing in God isn’t helping me either at this point but believing in myself is also a different story.

Bobepine.

I have to disagree. Nowhere in the bible is evil taught but there may be incorrect interpretations by human beings.

Would you mind showing me bad teaching using biblegateway.com ?

[quote]I also feel, however, that I am much happier since losing religion. I find that now I do thngs because I feel that I should. I do things because I feel they need to be done. Not beacuse “He is watching” I do things, I think, for the right reasons now. As before I did them out of fear. I am also happier with myself because with religion I felt I had to be perfect. And I could never reach that goal. But now I understand that I am a pretty good little monkey and that I can only try to be better and to get better and better. And that I cannot be perfect ever.
I think the entire things of struggling to be like Him is just too hard. And when faced with a goal that is so unobtainable, I think anyone will fail moreso than they would before.
I would love to finish this post, But I just noticed I forgot to eat breakfast and need to figure out how rto fit that in before work.[/quote]

This really isn’t that different from Christianity. None of us will ever be perfect but we are being made perfect. And even Jesus preached living faith over religion, “religion” in my mind being a list of To Dos to be ticked off. I practiced an awful lot of religion growing up but I don’t think I was truly a believer and a follower until just two years ago. And all the things I used to do because I thought I had to do them, well, they’re now things I want to do. It’s not always easy. Like today. :help:

I do not wish to debate the facts of history or compare the tenets of religious faiths. I’m simply stating the fact that no faith in history has had the backing of such a prosletizing effort. Whether you wish to see a parallel between the Christian prosletizing effort and the number of converts is up to you.

What I meant was that the object of the faith doesn’t really matter that much. Faith is useful in that it gives a person a reason for living and goals to aspire to; it imposes a mental discipline that is healthy for the soul. Tai chi, military service, signing up for the Peace Corps, all have similar effects as having faith in a traditional religion; all give you the healthy side benefits of having an understandable philosophy to discipline and anchor your life on.

We like to think of ourselves as adults but in some ways no one ever really grows up, we remain children. Children don’t have “faith” in a God; they have “faith” in their mothers and fathers. When we grow up and leave the nest, we miss the comforting anchor of our parents, when everything we needed to know about life, whenever we had problems, we just had to look up to Mommy and Daddy. I think faith and religion are our attempts to fill in this void that we feel as adults. God is a substitute Mother/Father figure. Also, fear of death and non-existence, so the need to invent mythologies of an afterlife to comfort us in our fears.

You can have faith in humanity. Faith in nature. In the Universe and all its strange mysteries only know being partially discovered by science. You don’t have to believe in mythological beings invented 2,000 years ago in the days of Zeus and Thor, to have faith.

I believe that you don’t really get what you want in life. You get what you believe you will get. In other words, the beliefs you harbor–not the wishes and desires–will eventually become true for you.

In that sense, faith is very powerful, whether you believe in a higher power or not.

[quote=“Tomas”]I believe that you don’t really get what you want in life. You get what you believe you will get. In other words, the beliefs you harbor–not the wishes and desires–will eventually become true for you.

In that sense, faith is very powerful, whether you believe in a higher power or not.[/quote]

I think that’s what I was trying to say, Tomas, but you said it so much better.

I believe I am as eloquent as Tomas, now. :wink:

Nonsense. Faith in a higher power is a bedrock in some people’s lives; others live just as healthily and happily and make just as many positive contributions to society without such faith.

That’s how some who hold such a belief may see it, and that’s fine. But it’s hard to see the picture when you’re inside the frame. That’s why people go to psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists and other counselors – because people may have certain insight into their own behavior, but often outsiders have an alternative perspective that may be more astute and more accurate. The person with faith may feel it’s a bond with the everlasting, but others may see it as a sign of weakness and it would be wrong to automatically discount that outside perspective. Perhaps the outsiders know better.

I disagree with both of those. If one believes in god due to indoctrination during childhood, coercion during times of emotional need, or tactics of charismatic missionaries, ministers or followers, then maybe it’s not really a choice freely given. Maybe in other circumstances, if the recruit weren’t so dependent and the recruiters didn’t employ such effective salesmanship, then the recruit wouldn’t have made that choice at all (i.e., it wasn’t a choice freely given; it was a matter of a good salesman taking advantage of the customer’s vulnerability to sell a product the person didn’t really need or want).

I also disagree with the no cost part. I once owned a house and rented out rooms. One guy who rented a room from me had recently divorced his wife and left her and their 2 kids. He had lived his entire adult life in a strict religion that prohibited sex outside of marriage, alcohol, popular music, revealing clothing (the women wore skirts to their ankles), etc. This guy was almost 40 years old and had never even kissed a woman other than his wife and never done so many other things that “normal” people do. I didn’t intentionally try to convert him, but in the time he lived in my house he gradually crawled out of his dark and gloomy religion into the real world – drinking alcohol for the first time, learning about rock and roll, learning to date women and enjoying life a lot more than he ever had before. He freely explained that his religion was wrong, unnatural, unhappy, and suppressed and prohibited lots of the joyous and natural pleasures of life. His religion exacted a huge cost on him and its other victims and he was thrilled to finally break free from it.

That’s one way of looking at it. But it’s equally possible that non-believers may not have a problem with “submersion of their egos” at all, but may simply prefer rational, scientific, analytical thought and have not seen evidence of a supernatural “god” sufficient to cause them to give up their reliance on science, such that they would instead rely in blind faith in something that may or may not be true.

In a way it surprises me, but I guess it shouldn’t anymore. Why do discussions about things like this fine topic, that of faith, have to devolve into a “Battle for Jesus”? Never a Battle for Krishna. Never a Battle for Buddha. And the pro-Christian dialogue is always that same tired, dogmatic, unoriginal, prefabricated, overemotional, unexamined manure.

There are so many points on that topic that I could address, but I’ll try to stick to the original topic.

I believe that faith, or belief, can certainly be useful. It has even been shown in some scientific studies to affect the results of healing patients in the hospital, for example. That said, faith works in the same way, and for the same reasons, that any placebo works. To be clear, I mean faith in anything unseen and unprovable. As for faith or belief in a sunrise or in a person, that is entirely different. Anything that has been demonstrated to be true can produce a faith in its value, continuity, and dependability. That type of faith allows us to live our lives without the paralysizing chaos that would exist without belief in anything.

There is one other aspect of belief that comes to mind. Belief has a very tangible link to results. Simply stated, the more a person actively believes in something, the more the person will act in accordance with the belief, and those actions, taken together, bring the person closer to realizing the object of the belief.

"The moment you commit and quit holding back, all sorts of unforseen incidents, meetings and material assistance will rise up to help you. The simple act of commitment is a powerful magnet for help." -Napoleon Hill

Kind of like the Boxers having faith that bullets couldn’t hurt them?

Well, from what looks like bullet holes in some of my old underwear, I’m guessing they have no special protective magic. :wink:

As to the link between belief and results, surely there are some limits – outside of Hallmark greeting cards.

I don’t really know much of anything about it, but I’ve heard reports of the effectiveness of African faith-healing, that it can in its own way aid healing (though obviously nowhere near as much as Western medicine). I know there are cases of people in the West who’ve had terminal diseases or crippling injuries that go into remission or are miraculously healed through the power of faith. It seems pretty obvious that the mind/body relationship is pretty tight; what you think in your mind affects your physical body. That’s why people with positive mindsets tend to be healthier than negative thinking people - or maybe that’s the body affecting the mind, not vice versa?

Thank you seeker4 for your excellent point. The poll question is too vague and ambiguous for the results to have any meaning, because many people (including the OP I believe) assume that “faith” refers exclusively to belief in christianity, although as you point out there are other types of faith. For that reason, I didn’t know how to answer the poll – even though I wanted to answer “yes” I was afraid that if I did so my vote would be regarded as a vote in favor of the importance of christianity, even though that wasn’t what I intended.

Well I’m a Christian and I’ve found that it has been very helpful to me personally. But When I say I’m a Christian I should mention that I don’t believe in organised religion at all. I rarely go to church, but when I do it doesn’t make a difference to me what denomination it is. I have faith in God, not a building or a minister. In my life I have seen the workings of my faith and I am completely convinced in what I believe.

Having said that, I respect other people’s beliefs and opinions and I don’t push my beliefs on others either. Faith is very much a personal thing and it means different things to different people. If it’s a crutch, then so be it. Sometimes I need God to carry me, because all to often I can’t see the forest for the trees. Reading the Bible has given me answers to many problems, and although I may not always like the answer, it has been my experience that when I don’t follow Biblical advice in my life it has always led to chaos.

But like I said. It’s a very personal thing and each one needs to find his own way. Free will and all that…

No grumpy atheists or agnostics? How about happy atheists or agnostics? :slight_smile:

Faith: The firm belief in something for reasons other than logic and reason.

Well that’s my definition anyway, and asother’s have pointed out there’s plenty of other types of faith beside the religious. I personally find putting your faith in organised religion to be a pretty silly idea how about:

Faith in human nature
Faith in your own ability to succeed
Faith in your husband/wife

I’d say I have faith, but I don’t consider myslef religious, and I;'m certianly not a Christian.

Brian

As some of the posters have questioned, the issue of “faith” may not necessarily be Christian-centered at all. Faith belongs in many religions. It is also a question of philosophy.

Personally I often find Christian definitions of “faith” to be circular in nature. As a Christian, faith is clearly defined in the Bible. But for non-Christians, that doesn’t always fly to well and I’m sure that’s the same for most folks who come from a non-religious perspective, say a philosophical one (i.e. “free will”). How does one cross that chasm from ‘non-faith’ to “faith”? What is your belief system?

It’s an individual journey I believe. Namely, an individual has a personal relationship with God. Often times, the question of “free will” vs. “faith” battle it out. I don’t believe that faith and free will cannot co-exist. I think they can and do but the logic is rather fuzzy on why it is. Also, in my view, a house of worship (be it church, synagogue or masjid) is irrelevant to the question of faith in God (or some other deity). Like bismarck, I’m not a big believer or fan of organized religion. The Catholic Church, for example, is an institution which I view with distrust and disdain. Historically, it has done things and promoted thought which I find very disagreeable. Churches and organized religion should be dealt with at arms length. What’s critical is the relationship one has with God (or not).

My meandering route w/r/t faith started along the lines of:

“I’ve planned and done so many things in preparation for my life map, so why am I not anywhere on that life road I mapped for myself?! Why am I not doing the things I desired to do and worked hard to achieve? What’s going on?”

From this point of analysis, you can either become a bigger believer in faith or a bigger skeptic. Maybe the OP somewhere at this point ? It’s a journey.

YMMV.

EDIT: If you do a search in philosophy about faith, you’ll find hundreds of entries about it.

You want to know in a poll whether people benefit from faith but you “disclude” agnostics and atheists? WTF? :loco: That’s got to be the least scientific – no, strike that-- the least RATIONAL basis for a poll I’ve ever seen in my entire friggin’ eleven year life. Oh, no, wait. the minimum age to join Forumosa is what? Oh, Ok, my entire friggin’ eighteen year life.

Footnote:
http://www.wordcentral.com/byod/174351.html

The poll is not right, I agree. Mother theresa pointed that out quite nicely and he’s absolutely right. My apology for the poorly constructed poll.