it’s interesting you say that. When I first started I thought the tones would always be beyond me, but somehow, I am getting them 80-90% right now. Don’t ask me why or how, I just know them after using these cards several times.
Yeah, it’s just repetition, but I didn’t think the fog would be lifting this early. 
Tonal spelling works.
If you think that looks too weird, try color coding at least. If you’re a visually-oriented person either will do wonders for your tone retention.
Color coding is a great idea. I went with:
1: yellow
2: green
3: blue
4: red/pink
Somehow the above assignment makes sense.
2 and 4 are sort of opposite colors.
3 is sort of a blue tone.
There are hi-liters for all those colors.
That is so bizarre.
That is almost the same sequence of colors I picked for the same thing back when I was producing reading texts with color-coding! Maybe there is some sort of super-language-universal going on among Westerners learning Chinese. 
Its an ISO standard… OK one question… which hi-liter will run out of color first? I think its the red. That is, I think there are more 4th tones. My guess is 4th tone, 3rd tone, 2nd tone, 1st tone are in order of most common. Anyone know or care to guess?
[quote=“ironlady”]Tonal spelling works.
If you think that looks too weird, try color coding at least. If you’re a visually-oriented person either will do wonders for your tone retention.[/quote]
What is “tonal spelling”?
Hi,
Tonal spelling is using a system of Romanization where the four tones of Mandarin are expressed using spelling changes, instead of using marks above the words, as is the case in standard Pinyin.
The best-known system is by Chao Yuanren (I think – it’s been awhile since grad school) but since that system added silent letters like “q” to the middle of the syllable, it was never very popular as it was a bit confusing.
I personally use a system called TOP – “Tonally Orthographic Pinyin” – which is just modified Hanyu Pinyin using capital and small letters. If you search “TOP” in the archives there should be voluminous explanations of it here somewhere. I’ve been using it over 10 years now and it has helped my tones immeasurably.
TOP doesn’t look pretty but it’s not meant for writing whole books – just for students of Mandarin to use to write down vocabulary and memorize it (or to send text messages in Pinyin on cell phones).
We also have a system for Taiwanese but it’s a bit more complicated – I guess you could call it TOT? Anyway we used to text message in Taiwanese (bad Taiwanese but Taiwanese all the same ) using it.
Info about the tonal spelling system of gwoyeu romatzyh invented by Y.R. Chao.
pinyin.info/romanization/gwoyeu_romatzyh/
Includes a comparison of: Zhuyin Fuhao, Wade-Giles, MPS2, Yale, Tongyong Pinyin, Hanyu Pinyin, and Gwoyeu Romatzyh. (Why do they capitalize these?) How many of these do we see on public signs in Taiwan? Maybe they invented some extra systems too?
Thanks for the link Toe Tag. Just looking at it, I’m not sure how they (Hanyu vs Tonal) would sound. Hopefully, I’ll pick that up when I get there.
I have a language partner now to help. But, it’s kind of weird because he pronounces things differently than they are written in my books. For example, for “meat”, my book say “rou”, my partner says “lou”. When my book say “yi dian”, he says “yi bian”. But, when I go to temple, my other Taiwanese friends say “rou” and “yi dian”. Is this a Southern vs. Northern accent distinction I’m hearing? Which one is more popular? Is it “zenmo” or “shenma”?
[quote=“Persephone”]Thanks for the link Toe Tag. Just looking at it, I’m not sure how they (Hanyu vs Tonal) would sound.[/quote]Not sure what you mean. They’re different ways of writing the same set of sounds.
[quote=“Persephone”]…for “meat”, my book say “rou”, my partner says “lou”.[/quote]The standard consonant sound in “rou” is like the soft j in French. In some people’s accents it is closer to an “l” sound.
[quote]When my book say “yi dian”, he says “yi bian”.[/quote]Not sure about that.
[quote]Is it “zenmo” or “shenma”?[/quote]Zenme and shenme are different words. Very roughly speaking, the first means “how” and the second “what”.
This guy must have a thick, thick accent. I’d be careful about imitating him too much (although it’d be useful to learn to understand him – you’ll find a great many Chinese speakers with, er, “interesting” pronunciation), especially since it sounds like you’re just starting out with learning?
Well, again, every line in that chart, every romanized word, they are pronounced exactly the same.
What the numerous romanization systems do is create a uniform system for writing those purely Chinese sounds using roman letters. Heck, probably when Greeks or Russians learn Chinese they have a system that uses Cyrillic letters. Anyway, that’s the great thing about standards, there are so many to choose from…
I would just stick with Hanyu Pinyin and call it a day. You could also learn the “bo po mo fo” phonetic system (not a romanization).
I tried the bo po mo, but it was faster for me to romanize it. After four months of trying in a class, I’m finally starting to make some progress on my own using the book “Beginners Chinese,” by Yong Ho.
As for the other advice, I’ll try not to imitate my partner’s accent too much.
This guy must have a thick, thick accent. I’d be careful about imitating him too much (although it’d be useful to learn to understand him – you’ll find a great many Chinese speakers with, er, “interesting” pronunciation), especially since it sounds like you’re just starting out with learning?[/quote]
Do you know where this guy (or his family) is from? That should tell you the origin of his accent and whether it is close to “standard” Guoyu.
Kaosiung
That may explain it, since the south is of the “Taiwanese” flavor usually (and depending on his family’s origins on the Mainland or not, the way he was taught, etc.)
but meat should be “rou”, and not “lou”. not that I’m fluent or linguistics guy, but I didnt even know there’s a word pronounced as lou.
Yi dian v. yi bian: not sure what your sentence is but there is a phrase “yi bian” independent of Yi dian.
same with zenme v. shenme. (different words/meanings: the first is like a “how”, the latter like a “what”)
feel free to correct me.
Regardless of my interpretation, I would recommend that, as a foreigner, you study the “standard” or “mainstream” pronounciation, if possible to be understood by the largest possible number of people, so the argument goes. Arguably, this might be the Beijing putonghua (ie not the beijing local) that you might see spoken by TV anchors, for example.
There are regular substitutions of sounds “committed” by various people in Taiwan (well, that’s what accent is, after all).
Some of the more common are:
(Hanyu Pinyin) X for SH, J for ZH, C for CH (“no retroflexion”)
F for H (jie fun instead of jie hun for “get married”, for example)
Confusion about N, L and R
If you know linguistics, confusion about N, L and R makes sense. All three segments are pronounced very close together in the mouth; L and R are “liquids” in the linguistic classification, and if you “unretroflex” the Chinese ‘r’ sound you get ‘l’ (retroflex just means stick your tongue back towards the back part of your hard palate; most Taiwanese don’t do it, which is why “four” and “ten” sound alike except for the tones in Taiwan.)
Actually foreign accent isn’t any different from these processes. What you do is substitute sounds from your native language in place of others you are not familiar with in the second language. That’s why a native English speaker can recognize where someone is from by the accent – it’s a regular system of changes.
Many Taiwanese will point to the correct Romanization or bopomofo spelling of a word and pronounce it wrong, because that’s what those sounds “sound like” to them. It’s difficult when you’re starting out, but it makes more and more sense (that is, it bothers you less and less) the more you hear a particular type of accent. After 20 years, I can still get hairballs when I’m confronted with a Mainland Chinese accent I’m not familiar with. Even if I know what the person is saying, it can be difficult to “get” it because of the extra decoding step involved in “translating” the accent into Standard Chinese in my head.
[quote=“ironlady”]There are regular substitutions of sounds “committed” by various people in Taiwan (well, that’s what accent is, after all).
Some of the more common are:
(Hanyu Pinyin) X for SH, J for ZH, C for CH (“no retroflexion”)
[/quote]
More like:
sh -> s
ch -> c
zh -> z
r -> IPA z (as in “zoo”)
(all but the last are HYPY representations)
It’s the loss of retroflexion, based on the lack of retroflex sounds in southern Chinese dialects. It’s also a basis for overcorrection, such as when many Taiwanese overcorrect the pronunciation of “suidao” (“tunnel”) as “shuidao”.
[quote=“Chris”][quote=“ironlady”]There are regular substitutions of sounds “committed” by various people in Taiwan (well, that’s what accent is, after all).
Some of the more common are:
(Hanyu Pinyin) X for SH, J for ZH, C for CH (“no retroflexion”)
[/quote]
More like:
sh → s
ch → c
zh → z
r → IPA z (as in “zoo”)
(all but the last are HYPY representations)
It’s the loss of retroflexion, based on the lack of retroflex sounds in southern Chinese dialects. It’s also a basis for overcorrection, such as when many Taiwanese overcorrect the pronunciation of “suidao” (“tunnel”) as “shuidao”.[/quote]
Thanks! I’ve been noticing those substitutions as well.
It’s really made me wonder how I can correct his English pronunciation (seeing as how this is a “language exchange”). I’m having a hard time getting him to stop say “r” like “l” and “or” like “ah” or “er”.
Also, now I have a friend from Shanghai offering to help me practice. I’ve heard, however, that this is a very difficult accent for English-speakers to reproduce because they put a lot of retroflection into it. Any thoughts?
Well, retroflexion is just putting your tongue back in your mouth. You can produce those sounds, but it will take some getting used to.
Most people in Taiwan and in other places will admire your accent in Chinese if it is more retroflexed. Since it’s probably obvious that you’re not Taiwanese in the first place, no problem with not being able to “pass” as a Taiwanese if you acquire that kind of accent!
No one seems to know exactly why some people have strong foreign accents and others do not. There are all sorts of theories out there: how old were you when you started to learn, what method, where did you learn, etc. etc. It seems to be rather idiosyncratic, though. It helps if you can get a person fluent in English to explain in simple terms how to produce the sounds (exactly where to place your tongue and so forth) – ditto if teaching English, it helps to be able to explain the vowel space in Chinese. Plain imitation has its limits if the sounds are very different from one’s native language.
For more information than you EVER wanted in your entire life about Chinese accent especially in foreigners and Taiwanese, you can look up my doctoral dissertation (1995, U Texas Austin). It’s also great if you happen to suffer from insomnia.