Adios Rummy

I thought you had me on ignore and Sun Tzu. haha Cute. Very cute. Back tomorrow.

Fred

He noticed? Gee - and there I was thinking he was caught up in Captain America comics of the 40s. Werewolves and all that jazz.

But enough of that, serious again:

“Good bye Clausewitzian Wars, hello 4th Generation Wars”. Did he give you the impression he realized this change of paradigm too? I mean beyond lip service?

I don’t when I look at your next example of his shining track record:

Did he also account for that one goes to the war with the public one has? As well as the media? As well as the electorate? You know … the people who one way or the other foot the bill and have to be convinced? Or was this all to be run on his personal Cornucopia of Vision & Will?

Given how miffed and surprised he acted when he had to realize the propaganda dimension of his endeavor was not going all that well I am not too convinced he realized a lot about the situation he found himself in.

If that’s the case, why was this time-consuming and personel-intensive nation building so much drummed up, also by him?

You say he realized he did not have the proper tools to go that extra mile, but went for it anyways? Any idea why he’d do something like that? Unable to connect the dots?

Less overselling about what could be done may have resulted in less disappointment with the voters later on.

That may be sufficient abroad once you are willing to carry the whole thing out unilaterally.

Too bad though that “concerns” by the electorate back home can not be ignored as easy. Democracy is just such a bitch.

Again, it is not just the army you have you go to war with but also your electorate. And it seems to not think Iraqi Freedom helped national security all that much any more. And I doubt just bitching about “biased media” will be sufficient here. It only highlights how out of touch Rummy seems to be, acting as if he just fell off the tunip truck and heard about the media only yesterday.

Not enough as it seems. The benefit of this policy has been eaten up by leaving the forces short handed for the arduous task of nation building. Which in turn lead to a gap in aspiration & projection of Rummy and his performance. And in turn in a loss of trust.

Being less full-mouthed about how fine this would all go and what all is in the cards -“democracy, stability, prosperity, peace, WMD caches, 9/11 ties” - in the beginning may have been more prudent.

But then maybe not enough to go to Iraq in the first place. What did the U.S. btw gain in return for going there?

Okay, back to humour then: :smiley:

I’ll give you that - I liked his Werewolf story too, highly amusing, almost forgot about that schlock. :bravo:

My view: If he realized any of the above, it begs the question why he acted the way he did. Something does not add up here to call him competent. He may have been better as a comedian than DoD. Court jester … something like that.

And his replacement…one person view on Mr. Gates:

“Bobby Gates’ nickname at the CIA was The Little Prick. He is a pompous,
incompetent, squishy witless fool. He is the total tool of the
Jimmy Baker-Brent Scowcroft crowd that so horribly ran foreign affairs for
GW’s daddy. To put such a man in charge of the Pentagon - the one bastion
of pro-Americanism remaining in our foreign policy establishment - is an
unmitigated catastrophe.”
Jack Wheeler
tothepointnews.com/

Yep. Jack Wheeler’s view. :smiley:

Just listened to Greg Palast in an interview.
James Baker is pulling the shots.

"Well, someone’s head had to roll — not for the bloody defeat in Iraq, but for the GOP’s defeat in the mid-terms.

Well, I’m not celebrating. I know that most of my readers will be tickled pink that Donald Rumsfeld has been given the kiss-off. But let’s get this straight: It wasn’t Rumsfeld who stood up in front of the UN and identified two mobile latrines as biological weapons labs, was it, General Powell?

It wasn’t Rumsfeld who told us our next warning from Saddam could be a mushroom cloud, was it Ms. Rice?

It wasn’t Rumsfeld who declared that al-Qaida and Saddam were going steady, was it, Mr. Cheney?

Yes, Rumfeld is a swaggering bag of mendacious arrogance, a duplicitous chickenhawk, yellow-bellied bully-boy and tinker-toy Napoleon - but he didn’t appoint himself Secretary of Defense.

Rummy’s the puppet — but the problem is the puppeteer.

President Bush is one lucky fella. I can imagine him today on the intercom with Cheney: “Well, pardner, looks like the game’s up.” And Cheney replies, “Hey, just hang Rummy out the window until he’s taken all their ammo.”"

[quote=“fred smith”]I thought you had me on ignore and Sun Tzu. haha Cute. Very cute.[/quote]Parole; don’t break it. :wink:

If you thought Sun Tzu was cute, how about George Will?

[quote]Republicans sank beneath the weight of Iraq, the lesson of which is patent: Wars of choice should be won swiftly rather than lost protractedly.
[/quote]

Is he cute too?

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]And his replacement…one person view on Mr. Gates:

“Bobby Gates’ nickname at the CIA was The Little Prick. He is a pompous,
incompetent, squishy witless fool. He is the total tool of the
Jimmy Baker-Brent Scowcroft crowd that so horribly ran foreign affairs for
GW’s daddy. To put such a man in charge of the Pentagon - the one bastion
of pro-Americanism remaining in our foreign policy establishment - is an
unmitigated catastrophe.”
Jack Wheeler
tothepointnews.com/[/quote]

[quote]In To The Point™, he’ll tell you about the plans the Chinese Underground Church Movement has to send 100,000 Chinese Christian missionaries to the Middle East to convert Moslem Arabs to Christianity.

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All that for only $8.98 a month!. Gee, TC, this is even better than the weapons inspector who found Saddam’s WMDs by channeling JEESUS!. I do not know how you find them.

Sign me up on that for the following reasons.

  1. He realized the Cold War was over and that we needed more mobile forces.
  2. He realized that you go to war with the forces that you have. Waiting to build up colonial adminstrators and civil forces including police would have taken years and would have required a long difficult reform and budgetary process.
  3. He realized that we would not invade and maintain Iraq with 300,000 to 500,000 troops for a long period. Doing so would have required conscription. That would never be accepted.
  4. He realized that if we relied on only professional forces that really we would be able to stay in Iraq to a large extent almost indefinitely and that it would have less of an influence on public opinion, the very public opinion that proved disastrous in Vietnam.
  5. He realized that our nation’s safety was more important than catering to “concerns” among groups that would criticize us no matter what we do or did.
  6. He was a funny man. I liked his nononsense and his biting humor.

On the other side, I can fully understand why many people have criticized him for lack of sufficient planning, for being too insensitive, for being too inflexible. I fully see and understand that and I fully respect the strong criticism as delivered by the Economist, a magazine that I respect very much but… in the grand scheme of things, I have and had a very favorable impression of the man and I value and appreciate his six years of service. Thank you Rumsfeld.

Final verdict. I do agree that for a variety of reasons it was time for him to go, but I wish that the exit would have been one filled with more appreciation and understanding of the vital role that he has played in transforming our military and its missions.

I get that not everyone will agree with me and that many will actively and openly oppose my opinion on this and again, I respect that.[/quote]

That man is completely incompetent. You can push these critcisms aside, but in the grand scheme of things - the man in Rumsfled’s job is supposed to set a proper strategy and planning for the military. In this, in his handling of our current war, he’s failed to do his job.

  1. The US army understood there was a need for more mobile forces ever since it built the light infrantry brigades under Reagan. This is no Rumsfeld revelation. Yeah sure, he killed the cursader - so what - he also cut many of the support structures that needed rebuilding foir the current conflict. The US army has 2 missions, 1. to enforce US policy 2. to protect the US from ‘life-threatening’ events. This dual mission requires both heavy & light forces. The transformational effects of a network centric army is formidable, so that a smaller force was able to dismember Saddam’s army quite quickly. However, not to the extent where 140k can manage a country. He was told this - and he dismissed it a coming from army reactionaries.

  2. An arguement which might lead some to say that you should not get involved in a conflict where you are not prepared. I think it is quite clear that there was no need to go right nointo Iraq - ie no clear and present danger. Don’t respond with hindsight, because this is what many were saying before the war began. Those that disagreed with him found other employment.

  3. This is exactly what the generals told him - so he pushed those that disagreed out pour encourager les autre. Rumsfeld has been very clear that he does not brook dissent - which has a chilling effect on the quality of input he got, which led to poor decision, based on wishes as opposed to reality.

  4. The professional forces aren’t sufficient unless you are fighting a very short war - the basic structure of the army is where most support services are located in the reserves, wchih would require activation. Clearly he misjudged the nature of the war.

  5. Depends upon what you consider the nations safety doesn’t it?

  6. Nice but irrelevant

Proper
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Piss
Poor
Performance

RUMMY (and GONZALEZ) HAS JUST BEEN SUED FOR WAR CRIMES

[quote]Nov. 14 — Emboldened by the resignation last week of Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, lawyers today asked a German prosecutor to investigate Mr. Rumsfeld on allegations of war crimes, stemming from the treatment of prisoners held in military jails in Iraq and at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

The 220-page lawsuit, filed with the German federal prosecutor in Karlsruhe, names 11 other current and former American officials, including Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, whom it alleges either ordered the torture of prisoners or drafted laws that legitimated its use.

The suit, filed by civil rights legal groups on behalf of 12 detainees — 11 Iraqis and a Saudi — alleges they were subjected to beatings, sleep deprivation, withholding of food, and sexual humiliation. . .

For Mr. Rumsfeld, who is soon to lose the legal protection of his Cabinet post, the prospect of foreign lawsuits could be an irritant when he travels overseas as a private citizen, according to legal experts.

A spokeswoman for the Pentagon, Cynthia Smith, declined to comment on the lawsuit because she had not seen it. The Pentagon denies torturing detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad or at Guantánamo.

The German prosecutor’s office confirmed it had received the document and said it would begin reviewing it. . .[/quote]
nytimes.com/2006/11/14/world … r=homepage

:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

Perhaps, as he’s passing through some foreigner airport, he can enjoy an extraordinary rendition of his own. No need to make a fuss about it, file papers, inform his family. Just shove him into a hole with a couple of sadistic bastards, an attack dog, and some bare, live electrical wiring. With luck, for a bit of fun and games, he can later be joined by Gonzales, Ashcroft, Cheney, and Bush to do the naked pyramid thing (that, or they can play Twister in the buff. First one to fall loses a fingernail).

MT:

Typical. Never called or cheered for Castro or anyone like him to be “tried for war crimes,” eh? Why is that we all wonder…

Anyway, now that the Democrats are in charge of both houses, I am sure we will see a complete reversal on all the policies adopted by the current Bush administration. In fact, right now that is on the top of the top of the top of the list for Democrat actions right? No? Er, um, why not? Minimum wage top of the list? Why? reform of the prescription drug bill? top? immigration reform top? Gee. Gosh. Golly. I have not heard too much from the Democrat leaders in the House and Senate as to how they will be moving to reform all of these gross abuses akin to those “committed” by Gonzalez and Rumsfeld, but then again, maybe just maybe I have been reading the wrong news reports? Ya think? hahahahahahahaahahaha

Now, can everyone understand why these midterm results have actually put a spring back in my step. Rumsfeld is gone. Now, let the Democrats lead. There are no more excuses. hahahahahahahah

But it will be good to have the other half of the country actively involved. Let’s see where they take us. hee hee hee

[quote=“fred smith”]Now, let the Democrats lead. There are no more excuses. hahahahahahahah

But it will be good to have the other half of the country actively involved. Let’s see where they take us. hee hee hee[/quote]Put another way: Colbert Report

The link didn’t work for me. :frowning:

They have some maintenance work on th ego, but it’s working for me.
You could try this one: Colbert: Sigh

Yeah, let’s see how they fix a quagmire! Losers.

Because I don’t pay his salary with my tax dollars?

Because he isn’t bankrupting my country with immense, misguided military boondoggles?

Because he hasn’t launched unprovoked invasions on any sovereign nations lately in violation of international law?

Because he’s not a smug, arrogant bastard who, as an elected leader of my nation, has badly tarnished the country’s reputation, fostered immense global ill will for the nation, heightened international tensions and conflicts, and infuriated (and embarrassed) a significant percentage of US citizens, whose opinion he has stated is irrelevant?

One week since the election and you’re already holding the democrats accountable. :unamused:

Give it time, give it time, although as spook pointed out, the democrats have plenty of work cut out for them undoing all the major quaqmires created by so many years of republican misrule.

[quote]Nov. 14 — Emboldened by the resignation last week of Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, lawyers today asked a German prosecutor to investigate Mr. Rumsfeld on allegations of war crimes, stemming from the treatment of prisoners held in military jails in Iraq and at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

The 220-page lawsuit, filed with the German federal prosecutor in Karlsruhe, names 11 other current and former American officials, including Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, whom it alleges either ordered the torture of prisoners or drafted laws that legitimated its use.[/quote]

Sorry, but I deny any involvement with this prosecution/investigation and am neither too keen to see them carried out in and by Germany.

I mean … didn’t we do our due back in 2003? Told pretty clear that we did not deem the Iraq adventure all too well conceived. I don’t mean just the elected schmucks, there had also been the peace demonstrators whom one can explain only in part to have been mere “Anti-American Hippies”.

I’d seriously prefer this all to be handled by U.S. courts. Why does Germany now have to get involved in any clean up?

On the other hand I am pretty convinced not much will come around anyways, so I am probably just ranting here.:smiley:

[quote=“fred smith”]MT:

You don’t have a moral or ethical bone in your body do you? haha Worried about money being spent by “your government…” blah, blah, blah, blah. . . [/quote]

Damn right I’m worried about it, and I’m hardly alone. But I have difficulty fathoming why you feel such concerns regarding the bankrupting of my country are immoral. Here’s a few charts that might make you feel all fuzzy inside.

Our national debt is presently in excess of $8,600,000,000,000 and growing at an astronomic pace.
zfacts.com/p/318.html

You may see concern for such things as immoral. As for me, I and most other people see them as legitimate cause for concern not just on our own account, but for our children, their children and their children who will have to pay off such debts.

Immoral? I guess that would refer to the complete and utter lack of knowledge that someone might have regarding the cause of this “deficit” and “debt” Call it stupid if you will.

First, I am not dismissing Bush’s poor financial record. I dare you to find any support for me for him on this. But I would like to know how you equate this deficit with the war in Iraq which is around 1.5 percent of the budget. Wanna know where the biggest amount of money is going, the biggest source of new spend? I will give you a hint, it is the prescription drug bill. After Bush passed that, he lost me. It is not even means tested. Hell, even welfare is means tested. Look to all those great social programs and all the great accomplishments and then like all other Western countries understand why we are where we are and we are not even the worst, far from it.

So, as usual, your shrill self-congratulatory “morality” is not based on any factual er basis. This is just another shrill effort for you to proclaim yourself “good” and I think that is sad. It leads to ridiculously morally twisted prospects of defending Che (passionate and good looking) Castro (improved reading scores) and Chavez (standing up for the poor) while condemning leaders in America for minor offenses that do not even begin to rate among the gross abuses of power committed by these three.

But back to you. You are a true San Francisco liberal. How’s that for a compliment? I think that you are the quintessential liberal, the penultimate caring leftie, the epitome of far left “morality” and “sense.”

Fred, please delete all the personal attacks from your last two posts in order to comply with the forum rules, as everyone else does. Seriously.

And please try to avoid changing the subject every time you don’t like the discussion. Rummy has been sued for war crimes. That has nothing to do with Castro, Che, San Francisco or me. If you wish to discuss whether or not he’s guilty or will be found guilty, etc., that’s fine, but don’t change the subject to avoid dealing with the facts.