Advocating change

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
1

(Note to mods: There are a number of threads in various fora discussing these issues. I want to try and get one list in one place, so please leave this one here for now.)

Hi all,

You may have noticed that sometimes life here is unnecessarily difficult. I’m not talking about the price of beer, or the traffic, or individual employment issues. I’m talking about institutional stupidity that creates unnecessary problems and hardships.

Some examples, courtesy of Hexuan:

  1. Driving licenses expire with your ARC. (I believe your ARC is suppose to have a full year’s validity on it before you can get a license anyway.)
  2. Bullshit extra charges from the phone company if you want a line so you can get ADSL.
  3. Mobile phone companies demanding that you have a Taiwanese guarantor or else pay outrageous charges for pre-pay.
  4. The absurd new regulation that bank cards may only be valid for the period of your ARC.
  5. Banks refusing to allow foreigners to establish credit and be treated like locals.
  6. (Mine.) The fact that it’s virtually impossible to keep a boat here.

What else is there?

Some of us are trying to put together a campaign to push for fair and equal treatment, in the interests of making Taiwan a more liveable place for the foreign community. I mean, what’s the point in the government promoting the island as a centre for foreign investment if foreigners can’t even get phones or bank cards? This is really bad for Taiwan and Taiwan’s image overseas.

The problem seems to be that the people making the rules don’t actually know anything about how we live or why we come here, and make their decisions based on bad information. Our job is to help them to understand our needs and to propose ways in which they can make Taiwan more attractive to foreign investment. (Just bitching and complaining won’t do a lot of good, let’s be positive about this.)

Suggestions, and any issues I’ve forgotten, below please.

Thanks

2

Great idea!

When westerners come to Taiwan to study Chinese, there are few that are able to, or willing to, do this off their own financial resources.

Profile of most Asians studying Chinese is univeristy student supported by parents.

Profile of most westerners is Post university (even middle aged) supporting themselves.

Although the law on the legality of working here while being a student has changed, it is unclear.

Fulltime students should b able to work (limited hours) even teach if they have the qualifications.

This could somehow be monitored by a department (although that spells trouble).

So proposal goes something like this:

Full time students can apply for a part-time work permit. (independant of having a job)
They are given a Tax number which must be used when being employed, be that 7-11, buxiban, restaurant.
Authorities can come down hard on those who abuse this system.
They could still have the $100,000 NT in the bank rule.

Benefits: more foreigners who would come to Taiwan to study Chinese.
More taxes would be paid.
At the moment they cannot regulate the student/teacher foreigner situation because it would put a heap of schools out of business. Under such a proposal they could enforce the laws more consistently.

or Variations of the above.

I’m sure I can come up with others. :sunglasses:

3

Oh, while we’re making a wish list.

  1. Dual nationality - right to citizenship without giving up your original citizenship.

  2. Same as above and everything in the first post.

4

[quote=“Loretta”]Suggestions, and any issues I’ve forgotten, below please. [/quote]Loretta would like this thread to be for lists of suggestions and issues Loretta may have forgotten, anything else is likely to get removed, complaints about phones and ATM cards have been discussed at length in other threads. Please no “I got a ATM card from xxxx” posts in here.

Love and kisses,
your moderator

5

Just been reading up on APRCs and noticed that if you are a foriegn spouse you are only required to have had 5 years continuous residency to obtain an APRC. But if you are single you require 7 years residency.

At some point in my the future here I would like to get an APRC but
a) being single, why should I have to wait an extra two years?
b) are 5 and 7 years to long anyway?

I’m not sure how these figures compare with other contries, so how do they compare?

6

[quote=“Roach”]Just been reading up on APRCs and noticed that if you are a foreign spouse you are only required to have had 5 years continuous residency to obtain an APRC. But if you are single you require 7 years residency.

At some point in my the future here I would like to get an APRC but
a) being single, why should I have to wait an extra two years?
b) are 5 and 7 years to long anyway?

I’m not sure how these figures compare with other contries, so how do they compare?[/quote]

I suppose the government figures that being married to an ROC citizen and living here for 5 years demonstrates some sort of commitment to living here permanently. If one is not married to an ROC citizen, I guess it takes a longer time to demonstrate the same sort of commitment (in the opinion of the Taiwan government).

If an alien marries a US citizen, such alien can obtain US permanent residency (PR) status in a matter of months.

However, if the same alien attempts to obtain US PR status through his/her employment, it can be a long and expensive process, with no guarantee that PR status will be obtained in the end. An alien can relatively easily obtain a work permit (H visa) that is usually valid for 3 years and which can be renewed for an additional 3 year period. However, if the alien wants actual PR status, it will cost him/her approximately US$ 3-4,000 in legal fees plus the filing fees, and the requirements for obtaining PR status through employment are far more strict than what we encounter here in Taiwan.

7

Loretta, After what Tigerman has said, I’m not so sure this really belongs on your list :idunno:

Edit And thanks for the info Tigerman…

8

This thought pertains to foreign workers who are generally factory worker and caregivers. But I would like to see this cahnge more than anything that would be of more convenience to me. IMNSHO this is more a human rights issue.

The lot of Factory workers has improved a great deal. However, these workers sign contracts in their home country. When they arrive at the airport (AT THE AIRPORT) when the new arrival is very green and vulnerable, they are often presented a new contract, which overrides the initial contract, in which they agree to not have ANY days off, always work overtime. or something to this effect. While many of the workers appreciate the extra money they really don’t know what’s happened until it’s too late.

Suggestion: There should either be a cooling off period (perhaps a month) after signing a contract like this. Or They should not be able to sign a contract like this until they have worked here for about a month. other suggestions welcome.

Care givers do not have as many laws governing them. (not many Taiwanese are caregivers so why should anyone care?) Many of these girls are treated as virtual slaves. They cannot make phone calls, do not get days off, work extrememly long hours, not allowed to have friends, not allowed to go out.

Of course it varies from job to job and some get it fairly good, but there are many who are slaves.

A friend of mine from Canada siad she had a Taiwanese family ask her if she would help them get a care giver. They didn’t want a Philipina as they can speak English and would be too much trouble. They wanted someone from somewhere like Vietnam, because they would be isolated and therefore less trouble. My friend didn’t help, but it shows the attitude that, not all, but some have towards their slaves, oops, caregivers.

Suggestion: Better regualtions for caregivers. This may be a little difficult as the nature of work is different for each caregiver. But basic entitlements, like a day off. Factory workers get paid overtime, but I believe that caregivers do not have overtime, so perhaps a weekly maximum hours, and anything above this is overtime.

Same deal as far as contract signing goes.

9

[quote=“GongChangZhang”]

The lot of Factory workers has improved a great deal. However, these workers sign contracts in their home country. When they arrive at the airport (AT THE AIRPORT) when the new arrival is very green and vulnerable, they are often presented a new contract, which overrides the initial contract, in which they agree to not have ANY days off, always work overtime. or something to this effect. While many of the workers appreciate the extra money they really don’t know what’s happened until it’s too late.[/quote]

What cant have any days off? We get treated better at the military… and I thought that was pretty bad… although we get paid like slaves… (less than 6000 nt a month)

10

Some good ideas coming in here guys, thanks. Keep 'em coming.

11

I’m not sure that what happens in America is all that relevant. In the UK, for instance, if you’ve had a work permit for four years you can apply for permanent residence. Perhaps you should ask Taiwan (and America) for the same?

12

I’m not sure that what happens in America is all that relevant. In the UK, for instance, if you’ve had a work permit for four years you can apply for permanent residence. Perhaps you should ask Taiwan (and America) for the same?[/quote]
Thanks 21p, perhaps this might be wothy of some further investigation… However, my gut feeling on this is that Taiwan measures itself against the US (I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong on this), so whatever is found may not be of any use.

13

What’s with the live here for six years go back home for six months and then have to start the whole seven year period from scratch.

I have a friend who came here when he was 14 (four years ago) on his father’s visa. Recently his father left and he decided to stay. He could not immediately transfer to his own ARC, so he had to leave, come back on a visiting visa, apply at uni, wait a few months and apply for ARC.

he has now lost the four years and he was only out of the country for a couple of weeks. :loco:

In Oz if you have lived in the country for a few years you can apply for a permanent residence visa. i am sure there are different types (don’t know for sure) but if you leave the country you can maintain the PR status provided you return to Oz within a set period of time (e.g. 3 years) After PR satus is gained your well on your way to citizenship.

Surely there is something that can make this absurd law less absurd. (well it is Taiwan and we can’t expect rational)

14

Believe you me, I speculate that China will be the winner in this situation if Taiwan doesn’t ‘open’ their eyes to that possiblity of how foriegners wanting to learn Chinese is gonna be a cash cow…Great Idea loretta, but are all these idea going to go to someone who can make a difference, or are we just speculating?

15

[quote=“GongChangZhang”]What’s with the live here for six years go back home for six months and then have to start the whole seven year period from scratch.

I have a friend who came here when he was 14 (four years ago) on his father’s visa. Recently his father left and he decided to stay. He could not immediately transfer to his own ARC, so he had to leave, come back on a visiting visa, apply at uni, wait a few months and apply for ARC.

he has now lost the four years and he was only out of the country for a couple of weeks. :loco:
[/quote]

He’s not quite back to square one. There is the current alternative qualification: prove you have been here for more than 183 days for ten years out of the last twenty! :astonished:

Two issues:

I have an ethical problem with people being deported for health conditions which were (probably or definitely) acquired or developed in Taiwan, including HIV. But I doubt that any headway can be made on this one. It is, and I expect will remain, a blind spot for Taiwanese and foreigners alike. (There was a fruitless exchange with Vannyel and others on the issue in the human rights forum last year.) But the percentage of foreign labourers deported for health reasons at the six month- and one year-mark for conditions that were tested for both before and on arrival is really shocking. It’s a real indictment of the conditions for foreign contract labour here. (Check the Taiwan CDC website, if you want the data.)

Less contraversially, now that driving licenses are linked to duration of stay (through the ARC) why can’t they be available to those on visitor’s visas and the like and just be linked to current legal presence in TW? Thus, if I’m here on a Visitors Visa and prepared to do the test I can still get a (very) short term licence. If this is too much for the authorities, they could say that an ARC is needed for the first application but thereafter a legal presence is enough. If I left Taiwan and came back for a month every year I can take my passport and old licence along to the Licensing Office for a licence of one month’s validity.

16

Of course, if anyone tries to lobby for change without first getting permanent residency they can also get deported.

What about the freedom to do unpaid work and to stand up for yourself when the fucking bank pushes you around?

17

I think this is two separate issues that are closely linked.

In the US (since it’s the system I’m most familiar with) when you apply for a credit card a credit check is run on you with one (or more) of the major credit reporting agencies.

[I posted about this [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/credit-bureaus-in-taiwan/17156/1 but I don’t think my question was fully understood/answered.]

Now I think before we try to get credit cards we should figure out how exactly we can get credit. Even if you do end up getting one card from one bank it only means you have credit at that bank not “Now I can can finance my house” credit. I have a feeling that there are no credit agencies here. If there are, then there should be a way we can get them to include foreigners into their equations.

If someone could point me in the right direction I’d do my fair share of cage rattling.

18

MK, get credit is not the same as establish credit. or is that what you meant?

In the US no one can just walk in and borrow money. Same in the UK, Aus, NZ, or Germany.

But in all those countries you can, for instance, start out with some secured credit (something guaranteed by another person, or by a deposit) such as a credit card or mobile phone but have it recorded as being yours. In time your credit history reflects the fact that you have a history of making your payments and be considered for genuine credit in your own name.

In Germany I got a mobile phone account secured against my UK credit card. Once I had established credit-worthiness I got a credit card in Germany. I had no problem getting a phone line.

In Oz I got a mobile phone account without any security at all.

In NZ I got a credit card with a very small limit by having my salary paid directly to my bank account, and authorizing a direct debit from my account to make my credit card payments. Later they increased my limits, because I had a history. I still have those cards, and they’re still in good order.

In the USA I got a debit card on my account, with a nominal $100 overdraft limit. I needed a guarantor for my mobile phone account, but after six months they allowed me to take over sole liability for it. Nobody made any difficulties about giving me a home phone line.

In every country people are cautious about lending money. But Taiwan is the only one where they practise discrimination because of your passport.

My bank has just refused me a DEBIT card because there’s no fucking way I’m going to ask anyone to guarantee the account. I’m not looklng to borrow money, I’m asking for access to my own money. I have a post-paid mobile phone account which I have maintained in good order for two years, and go that by having a guarantor. I have a credit card from another TW bank, which I had to fight for but got eventually. But some people still consider me to be a bad risk based on nothing more than their pre-conceived stupid ideas about foreigners. They haven’t considered my circumstances or history at all and that is what pisses me off. They just say foreigner=bad and want a guarantor for an account with no borrowing facilities.

And if a group of us got together to campaign for change we could be deported! :fume: :fume:

Can I call someone to complain? Not without paying the phone company an extra NT$2000 more than the locals do in order to get my phone connected. What kind of bullshit is that? Someone posted recently here that they had offered to bar all outgoing calls on their phone, and pay the value of a 12-month contract for ADSL up front. All they wanted was to get online and there was no possible risk to the phone company. The response was that he still had to pay the extra NT$2000. Where’s the sense in that?

Here’s a quote from the letter I just sent to the head office of ABN Amro:

[quote]I am a bad risk, just because I have a
British passport. Presumably if I was to apply for Taiwanese citizenship I would
then be considered worthy of doing business with you? Taiwan is not recognised
as a country by Europe or The Netherlands. Taiwan is a small island prone to
devastating earthquakes and typhoons. Taiwan is under continual threat of
invasion by the world’s largest standing army and there are some 800 ballistic
missiles targeted here. This non-existent country could disappear before you
read this email, but* I *am a bad risk because I have a UK passport? Could you
please explain why this is so?

And even if I were a bad credit risk, what difference would that make? I am not
asking to borrow money, I am asking for an account and a card that allows me to
withdraw MY money from that account. Could you please explain the logic behind
this requirement that I ask a local person to guarantee my account? This is
absurd, and unacceptable.

If I was in a civilised country, and ABN made this kind of ridiculous demand, I
would take my business elsewhere. But I’m in a backward, racist little piece of
nowhere and this kind of idiocy is standard here. I cannot simply take my
business to your nearest competitor, I have to insist that you treat me fairly
and reasonably.[/quote]

19

[quote=“Loretta”]
Here’s a quote from the letter I just sent to the head office of ABN Amro:

[quote]I am a bad risk, just because I have a
British passport. Presumably if I was to apply for Taiwanese citizenship I would
then be considered worthy of doing business with you? Taiwan is not recognised
as a country by Europe or The Netherlands. Taiwan is a small island prone to
devastating earthquakes and typhoons. Taiwan is under continual threat of
invasion by the world’s largest standing army and there are some 800 ballistic
missiles targeted here. This non-existent country could disappear before you
read this email, but* I *am a bad risk because I have a UK passport? Could you
please explain why this is so?

And even if I were a bad credit risk, what difference would that make? I am not
asking to borrow money, I am asking for an account and a card that allows me to
withdraw MY money from that account. Could you please explain the logic behind
this requirement that I ask a local person to guarantee my account? This is
absurd, and unacceptable.

If I was in a civilised country, and ABN made this kind of ridiculous demand, I
would take my business elsewhere. But I’m in a backward, racist little piece of
nowhere and this kind of idiocy is standard here. I cannot simply take my
business to your nearest competitor, I have to insist that you treat me fairly
and reasonably.[/quote][/quote]

I like it. :bravo: :laughing:

Please let us know if you get anywhere by writing this letter. I would prefer to use this language instead of the usual groveling that is expected when I want something from someone here who has the “discretion” to say no (“discretion” is in quotes because experience here shows that where there is “discretion,” there usually is a “no”).

20

:fume: :fume: I’m with you on this one, loretta. I did the same thing, only have to deal with the same sh$t. All this does is reinforce the ideas that foriengers aren’t trust worthy. :fume: :fume: But we can teach their kids :s :unamused:

In the US, I don’t know what the rules really are for people who don’t have PR, but to get credit is like this. Generally, credit card companies like to see a source of funds, if you have a bank acount, checking or savings, with a equitiable amount in them,then that works in your favor. If you have rented for a period of time, that goes on your credit rating,along with anything else you have opened in your name. So, the best way someone who isn’t America to establish credit, would be thru their bank first, and then build up from their.

Loretta, hope it works out for ya, on ya letter. But don’t worry if it doesn’t. My guess is they like to shoot themselves in the foot here more than they like to move in to anything resembling the 21st century…