Advocating change

[quote=“Loretta”] [quote]I am a bad risk, just because I have a
British passport. Presumably if I was to apply for Taiwanese citizenship I would
then be considered worthy of doing business with you? Taiwan is not recognised
as a country by Europe or The Netherlands. Taiwan is a small island prone to
devastating earthquakes and typhoons. Taiwan is under continual threat of
invasion by the world’s largest standing army and there are some 800 ballistic
missiles targeted here. This non-existent country could disappear before you
read this email, but* I *am a bad risk because I have a UK passport? Could you
please explain why this is so?

And even if I were a bad credit risk, what difference would that make? I am not
asking to borrow money, I am asking for an account and a card that allows me to
withdraw MY money from that account. Could you please explain the logic behind
this requirement that I ask a local person to guarantee my account? This is
absurd, and unacceptable.

If I was in a civilised country, and ABN made this kind of ridiculous demand, I
would take my business elsewhere. But I’m in a backward, racist little piece of
nowhere and this kind of idiocy is standard here. I cannot simply take my
business to your nearest competitor, I have to insist that you treat me fairly
and reasonably.[/quote][/quote]

Loretta you must realize that you blew it with that last paragraph. The policy is outrageous, but it doesn’t make sense to vent your spleen at the people who might be able to help change that policy.

Great letter but I agree with “bob” on the last part of it. Will there be a Chinese version of this letter?

I wonder if a foreigner or a group of foreigners can send “dear editor” sort of letters to a newpaper or magazine, or buy a space for an ad on all these issues. Does anyone have a connection with a reporter or a writer who would make a news story out of this?

[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“GongChangZhang”]
Benefits: more foreigners who would come to Taiwan to study Chinese.
[/quote]

Believe you me, I speculate that China will be the winner in this situation if Taiwan doesn’t ‘open’ their eyes to that possiblity of how foriegners wanting to learn Chinese is gonna be a cash cow…Great Idea loretta, but are all these idea going to go to someone who can make a difference, or are we just speculating?[/quote]

Actually, the government and universities have been giving out more scholarships in recent years, both in terms of the number awarded and the amount of money. I think they’ve made a bit of improvement in this area already.

[quote=“Loretta”]MK, get credit is not the same as establish credit. or is that what you meant?

In the US no one can just walk in and borrow money. Same in the UK, Aus, NZ, or Germany.

But in all those countries you can, for instance, start out with some secured credit (something guaranteed by another person, or by a deposit) such as a credit card or mobile phone but have it recorded as being yours. In time your credit history reflects the fact that you have a history of making your payments and be considered for genuine credit in your own name.[/quote]
Yes, that’s what I meant. I’m not real clear on how credit works, but I think the problem we have here is we can’t get a credit history and I don’t think the problem is directly related to each institution that won’t grant us credit. I think it’s because we’re not included in whatever system is used to track this credit history (if there is one). This is the question I still haven’t gotten answered: Who is angency that is responsible for tracking a persons credit history, foreign or local? If I knew this I’d have a place to start asking questions. Otherwise I’d have to do it battle by battle with each company (which is OK too, but I’d rather know of a central place to go to).

Loretta, as you know, I’m more than willing to help in any way I can. I’m not a legal expert, so my best asset would probably be my Chinese skills, argumentative nature, and some connections. Let me know what I can do.

[quote=“miltownkid”]
Yes, that’s what I meant. I’m not real clear on how credit works, but I think the problem we have here is we can’t get a credit history and I don’t think the problem is directly related to each institution that won’t grant us credit. I think it’s because we’re not included in whatever system is used to track this credit history (if there is one). This is the question I still haven’t gotten answered: Who is angency that is responsible for tracking a persons credit history, foreign or local? If I knew this I’d have a place to start asking questions. Otherwise I’d have to do it battle by battle with each company (which is OK too, but I’d rather know of a central place to go to).[/quote]

MK, I don’t think you’re right here.

I think there are credit reference agencies (credit reporting) here although I cannot remember the names and I do think that foreigners who have their own credit cards are listed.

Why do I think so?
1 - About two years ago I was working on a case involving data privacy laws in a local law firm here and the issue came up. My colleagues told me that there were credit reporting agencies. I don’t remember the names. The credit reference agency (agencies?) may be the same as the National Credit Card Centre which processes the bulk of the credit card transactions in Taiwan.

2 - When I applied for a credit card with one bank they were able to tell me of cards I had with other banks. What they said was correct, though imcomplete. They did not get this information from the application form. They must have done a search somewhere based on name address and ARC number and found my details. I am not a Taiwan citizen.

I am sorry I cannot be more specific. But these are the reasons that I believe the problem is not as you diagnose. If you get a card in your own name in Taiwan I believe you will have a credit history here. The problem is the rule (practice? mindset? prejudice?) at the level of the bank.

The problem is they don’t have a system set up to (or are not willing to go to the trouble) of checking overseas credit histories. This is a major problem that needs to be resolved. I have a good credit rating in the U.S. and would have no problem getting credit cards, loans, or whatever. But in Taiwan, I can’t even get a damn credit card. I did manage to get my Chunghwa Telecom landline and ADSL in my own name … I wonder if that kind of thing gets caluclated into any kind of credit rating here? (not that they would even check … I suspect as soon as they see “foreigner”, they reject the applications outright).

If it was worth it to set up such a system they would. Let’s face it, foreigners are a tiny minority in Taiwan. Why should the banks go to the trouble and expense of modifying their systems to accomodate us?

Loretta: You can lobby for change here. You MAY not be able to demonstrate in public (say in front of a bank) though I suspect you would get away with it.

I’d like to add another item–restrictions on foreigners donating blood.

I think I am right :smiley:. Kind of anyway. I’m sure there are some kind of agencies here, but having an agency isn’t enough. From my limited understand of establishing credit the scenario I’m thinking about should go like this:

  1. Apply for a cellphone.

  2. Company checks your credit with one (or more) of these credit agencies.

  3. Either A. You’re approved (great, get your phone) or B. Your not :frowning:. If B. on to step 4.

  4. They tell you weren’t approved and you need to grantor or to put down a deposit.

  5. You decide to put down a deposit and get the phone.

  6. The cellphone company leaves a record of you paying a bill in your own name with above mentioned agency and you’re on your to establishing credit.

Overtime you should be able to build up a record of doing all things in your own name and eventually get credit cards, bank cards, buy boats, etc. I think that’s roughly how it should go.

If we’re not included in this system of credit OR most companies don’t use it, that’s a problem.

The reason I’m asking about the name/s of the agencies like this is then I could make it a point to get myself listed in one and tell companies to check it.

I think I’m curious enough now to go and ask some questions at my local China Trust. Hopefully I’ll come back with some answers.

[quote=“Feiren”]
I’d like to add another item–restrictions on foreigners donating blood.[/quote]Eh? :tic: Since when? I used to give blood regularly, some years ago mind, and got nothing but gratitude for it. What are these restrictions, and when they come into being?

just thought i’d throw in the fact that my bank (union bank) has given me a new ATM card that also functions as a debit card … i didn’t ask for it, but they said it is included in the new ATM cards they are issuing that need a 6 digit code minimum …

dunno if they forgot that i’m a foreigner, or maybe b/c i’ve had an account with them for some 5 years … ?

I’ve seen it at the blood bank nearby and on a couple of web sites. Maybe they just don’t enforce it.

I’ve heard of this as well. I think it’s a shame. But then again, they don’t accept blood from homosexual males (or drug addicts) in the States. That’s also a shame since I get tested for HIV regularly, practice safe sex, and think donating blood is a very worthwhile thing to do.

Loretta,

I have heard a rumour that foreigners can only study for two years. (never heard of it being applied though) and then I’m not sure what happens. Leave teh country and return again, not sure.

Koreans and Japanese can probably get quite fluent in that time, but for the average westerner, we’re still having trouble ordering breakfast (well I am any way :raspberry: )

Don’t know if its worth checking out or complaining about.

[quote=“GongChangZhang”]Loretta,

I have heard a rumour that foreigners can only study for two years. (never heard of it being applied though) and then I’m not sure what happens. Leave teh country and return again, not sure.

Koreans and Japanese can probably get quite fluent in that time, but for the average westerner, we’re still having trouble ordering breakfast (well I am any way :raspberry: )

Don’t know if its worth checking out or complaining about.[/quote]

Hmm, I think you’re supposed to leave the country every six months anyway in most cases. In itself that’s bad enough although I don’t know how it compares to other countries. But you’re right, why should two years be enough to learn chinese in?

Does anyone know more about this?

I think that’s the longest you can stay with an ARC based on studying Chinese. After that you’d need to leave and come back.

You mean you can come and study for two years and get an ARC as a student? Presumably that’s only at certain schools?

But after two years you have to leave. Can you turn straight around? How easy is it to get a new visa? Can you get a new study visa and ARC from the same school you were studying at previously?

What if, for instance, you happen to have learned Chinese and are studying another subject at a TW university? I know it sounds unlikely, but I did once meet a guy who was studying something political that was specific to this region, at one of the big unis here.

How you going to get a degree in just two years?

OK. It’s three years for the Chinese study one. After four months of studying you can apply for it (the ARC).

The ARC you get when you go to school (like getting a u. grad, grad, or PHD) lasts longer.

If you did study Chinese for three years straight you’d have to leave, but then you could just turn around and come back in.

(this is just what a little birdie told me, but this sounds right from what I remember hearing)

Actually it can be done in a matter of weeks.

Being in graduate school, I have things pretty easy when it comes to getting my ARC, being able to stay in the country, and even working. I pay my tuition, get a 1-year ARC renewal every year, and I can spend as much time as I want studying for my M.A. (although technically the department will “force” you to finish within six years, but I know of one Taiwanese girl who is in her eighth year of the M.A. program). So, after my two years of classes, I can take as long as I want to write my thesis, no classes to attend, and as long as I keep paying my (relatively cheap) tuition, I’m all set. That’s the difference between a “degree program” and a “language school.” As far as working goes, I don’t need to go through the normal hassles. I just have to fill out a short form from my university, have them and the company stamp it, and that’s it. University life is wonderful, other than the fact that I’m stuck being poor, have to study and write all the time, and have no social life. :s

The only problem is, I’ve “heard” that the time you spend in Taiwan in which you are enrolled at a university does NOT count towards the five or seven years you need to qualify for permanent residency, which really sucks. :fume: