After they leave Taiwan?

Bai an,

Your question is one that I think just about everyone who lives indefinitely in a foreign land asks themselves at least once during their stay abroad. Here’s another discussion thread on my personal site where 15 or so people talk about why they came to Taiwan, why they stayed, and why they finally left. A different perspective perhaps.

http://heychristine.com/cgi-bin/u/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000029&p=

Uh… best to ignore my own postings there because at one point I was freaking out (lol) about the whole question of “Should I stay or should I go”, having lived in Taiwan for almost 7 years and running.

I too went through a stage (on that forum actually) where I started comparing the “dullness” of life back in the U.S. versus all that can be experienced out here, financial wealth, etc., all the things mentioned above.

But what I’ve learned from that exercise is, well, three things:

1. Life is what you make it.

One can have a very dull life here in Taiwan (many do), one can have an exciting life in the U.S. (many do). It’s what you make of it.

2. One lifestyle is no better or worse than another.

Each has its pros and cons, and, what may seem horrific to one may be ideal for others. Sometimes we forget that those people who live lives that we’d never want, are perfectly happy doing what they do.

Judging others for the choices they’ve made, or simply comparing other people’s lives to our own isn’t productive, because at the end of the day only you will know what makes you happy. Which brings me to point #3.

3. It really depends on where you are in your life, and what your priorities are, and recognizing that those things will change over time.

Some people live totally crazy lifestyles out here, going out all the time, meeting people, etc. And that’s great. But sometimes, those same people may one day decide that they want something different, and that perhaps Taiwan isn’t the ideal place to pursue those things. It totally depends on the individual.

And finally, (oops that makes it 4)

4. If you do decide to move back to the U.S., and then for whatever reason you change your mind and come back to Asia --> it’s okay.

Like some others who posted above, I used to think that doing so would be a terrible thing, but I realize now that it’s a great thing. It’s very healthy, actually.

To decide that you want something different (or simply that you aren’t sure what you want at the moment), then to make changes to see how it goes, and then to find out that hey, maybe that’s not what you want, is great, in that at least you won’t be wondering what it is you think you’re missing.

I think the most difficult part for me was the THINKING aspect of it, which really drove me nuts. I tried to justify why I should stay, pointing out all the negatives about moving back to the U.S., etc.

But then one day, I just woke up and realized that hey, I want a change. Not because I convinced myself that Taiwan is all of a sudden “bad” and the U.S. is “good”, etc. Just that after doing what I’ve been doing for so long, I want to do something different. It was as simple as that.

Anyway, good luck on whatever you decide to do.

As a good friend once told me, whatever you decide to do (stay or go) will be the right decision, because only you will know what’s best for you.

Funny you mentioned the bit about lying awake at night thinking about the pension plan.

I have been doing a lot of that lately (just after my 33rd birthday actually:-)

So on a recent visit to the home country I opened up a brand new bank account with ABN AMRO (got that bloody credit card that they would not give me here in Taiwan without the TW guarantor) and set up a pension plan and automatic savings plan, all managed via Internet Banking.

Now I just need to maintain the willpower for the next 30 years to send half of my cash home every month:-)

As for the future, well the great thing about Taiwan is that i can work half the hours I worked home and earn twice the money.

So I am slowly working on my postgraduate qualifications in TEFL / Appl. Ling. When I get to old to roll around the kindergarten floor playing ‘duck duck goose’, I hope to score a nice little lecturing job at a Western University.
Teaching the next generation of teachers, and maybe even doing a little research on the downfalls of the Confucius style of Education and English Language Learning in Taiwan:-)

What scares me the most about being here long-term is the lack of job and visa security.

I came here thinking I’d stay for 6-12 months, make some money and then continue traveling. But I enjoyed it here too much - the work and the social life - and decided to return after trips back to Britain, to Eastern Europe and other Asian countries. Now, 10 years on, with my parents in the UK getting old, and my social security contributions too small to qualify me for any pension, I can see the disadvantages of being here. Overall, however, I don’t regret the long stay. It continues to be more interesting than life would be in the UK, and financially it has been quite a good move. I’ve no plans to move back, as I feel at home in Taiwan. I want to keep the UK door open in case I have children here (I’m married to a Taiwanese). I don’t want my decisions to bind them…

Steven Crook
KEEPING UP WITH THE WAR GOD
http://www.romanization.com/books/crook/index.html

This is one of the more interesting threads to come along in awhile…

I don’t have a lot of time now, but I’ll answer some questions. To answer bai an:

quote[quote]Could you please tell us a little bit more about Jersey plans [/quote]

Jersey is part of UK. But is a tax free area with secret banking laws.

See:

Jersey Secure Private Personal Offshore Account

quote[quote] What do some of your friends do - sock away money in their home country - in that country's currency? How much do they put away (approximately)? [/quote]

My mother controls an IRA I have at home in US dollars. My friend, who left Taiwan after 8 years to return to UK to study, had an ABN-Amro
account in US dollars. She had @ 3 million NT in it when she left, which she invested in real estate straight away.
I’ve other friends who buy real estate in their home countries too, usually leasing them out if they live overseas.

To answer v:

quote[quote]Alien, you are fixated on fat, I must say. One of the major reasons I moved back to the US is because I didn't want my children growing up in such a polluted environment- does this aspect of Taiwan ever enter you health conscious/fat-free mind? [/quote]

Well, I grew up in the south of the US, and the level of obesity is pretty darn high there. I visited friends I hadn’t seen for 6 years last month, and couldn’t believe what had happened to them…Also, I find it difficult to control my own weight in the US. I think it’s partially due to the fact that people drive everywhere, are bombarded by food ads, use drive-thrus regularly at fast food restaurants, and fatness standards are much higher. I’m considered big in Taiwan, but in the US, normal. It’s relative, but you just don’t see that many lardy people around here, and it’s shocking when you haven’t been to the US for a while and just about everyone over the age of 30 has ballooned up. It’s a personal thing for me, v, but everyone knows that Americans are some of the fattest people on the planet, consuming way more than their share of the world’s food supply.

You’re right about the pollution levels being higher in Taiwan. It seems to be a little better lately with the MRT, but it could be my imagination…
I wonder if more people die early and/or develop heart conditions from being overweight, or if carcinogens are more toxic to a healthy life.

quote[quote]Just curious- what is your job? Are you 100% satisfied with it? [/quote]

I’m a Business English consultant, and I enjoy my work. I have a great deal of flexibility and room for creativity in the design and execution of what I do with my learners. I’m also an MSc TESP participant and my course is geared towards a ‘situated action research cycle’, meaning that I can use my practice to develop theories, and then put those theories in turn, into practice.

V, if I were to advise you about your own position teaching immigrant students, I would suggest that action research would be something you could do in order to find your own work more intellectually stimulating. Teachers go through cycles of development and they can often burn out if they keep doing the same things. But teaching is also learning, and happier teachers, at the end of their careers, have been ones who were always finding new insight into their own practice. satisfaction guaranteed!
Even after I’ve got my MSc, I plan to continue doing action research throughout my teaching career, whether it takes me back to the US, to Siberia, or here in Taiwan.

If you’d like to know more about action research, email me.
taipei_alien@hotmail.com

Interesting subject … In my experience, foreign residents of Taiwan generally get burned out after 3 years … some take a break for a year or two, travel, go to school, go back home, etc, but often will return to the island. However, whatever brought them back for round two tends to get old after another three years.

In my case, I liked certain aspects of living in Taiwan but really missed my home town, my family, friends, and quality-of-life issues - such as having a yard, being able to live in a clean environment, having peace and quiet.

The Chinese skills did not help me much upon returning. As someone pointed out earlier, many Chinese people living abroad have foreign language skills, and there is a limited pool of jobs requiring Chinese outside of PRC/Taiwan. In terms of the job search, few people are able to appreciate your experience. You’ll find your coworkers will see it as a kind of a freaky trick that they might bring up during lunch, like “say my name in Chinese”. Hardy har har.

I don’t agree with the Walmart comment. It’s a shallow view of a very diverse country and its people.

I usually am not a fan of Christine’s writings, but she echoed my own thoughts exactly with her above post. I would only add “carpe diem”- make the most of your time in Taiwan. When I was there, it was like I was in a weird time warp- maybe it had something to do with being thrown off by not having 4 seasons, or not having time marked off for me by school semesters passing or US holidays. Time flew so fast. I had crammed in a lot having gotten involved in the environmental movement, working in the Taiwan gov’t and as an English teacher and meeting all sorts of great people, but I hadn’t planned for my move back to the US well enough. I didn’t save a lot of money. I could never live in Taiwan permanently because of quality of life issues that My talked about above- but I do miss it which is why I come to this board even though I have been back in the US since 97. The fact that my husband is Taiwanese and I’m always speaking Chinese in the house, eating Chinese food, reading Chinese newspapers and watching Chinese videos keeps me in touch with Taiwan, though. Alien, teaching ESL elementary/middle school students in the US is much more demanding than teaching English in Taiwan. I find it both more stressful and more rewarding. For example, I got a whole family of Afghani refugees two years ago who couldn’t even read in their own language (ages 9 to 12) as they had never been to school. Now two years later they are holding their own in regular classes. I learned about the Taliban (way before other Americans did )straight from the source. I also pick up some of the languages my students speak and learn about their cultures which keeps the job interesting. I can understand basic Pashtun/Dari, which is the Afghani dialect my students speak. I already knew some French and Russian, so I’m able to understand my zero English Polish and Haitian-Creole students somewhat. I don’t have any Chinese students, but when they pop up in other areas of the school district, I’m called in as the “Chinese specialist” which makes me feel good. It’s an ideal teaching job as far as the public school system goes as I have around 36 students through out the day spread out in small groups as opposed to the 160 students a day middle school teachers see. Anyway, to echo what I was saying above, enjoy yourself wherever you are- use the time well and plan for the future even though you know you can’t plan with certainty.

Great post, V. May I ask, was it difficult for your Taiwan spouse to find work in the USA? What kind of work is he doing? How has he adjusted to life in the USA? Also, you mentioned that you are not all that crazy about your current job. Are you thinking about changing it - or is that diffuclt in the USA right now? Thanks for your answers.

There is room for confusion in reading the above postings because some of the writers are Chinese who actually have dual nationality, and some are foreigners who only have their home country nationality.

So, of course, when someone brings up the issue of job and visa security, this means different things to different people.

I am always surprised when I see people who state the desire to live in Taiwan long term, but then don’t get involved with the “foreigner’s rights” issues.

A lot of the (perceived) unfair or unequitable treatment of foreigners in Taiwan is not going to go away some Saturday morning or otherwise evaporate. There is the need for an active and organized effort to identify problems, discuss solutions, and effectively push for change.

quote:
Originally posted by Hartzell: I am always surprised when I see people who state the desire to live in Taiwan long term, but then don't get involved with the "foreigner's rights" issues.

Speaking for myself, I don’t have nearly enough spare time to get involved. Plus, I’m not a “joiner” and never have been. Plus, I’ve got WAY too short a temper to try to deal with puffed up government blowhards. Plus, my Chinese isn’t good enough.

And I don’t think I’m an isolated case. But maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree. What kind of things would you suggest – let me rephrase – what kind of things would you like to see people like us doing as it relates to the work you do in this regard? I know you’ve mentioned many times that you’d like to see foreigners put themselves up for “test cases,” but I’d no more willingly enter Taiwan’s court system than I would swim with pirhana.

What other options do we have? What is NOT being done that you would like to see being done that involves something less than embarking on a crusade?

Protest marches and egging government buildings? Now, I could get into that!

Thursday the 17th and Friday the 18th I was in court with clients who have sued the Ministry of the Interior. Friday was typical, an Irish gentleman, and his case has been in court six months or so. (That length of time is unusual, but it is a difficult case.) The MOI’s top legal counsel was there, as well as the top bureaucrat in charge of nationality issues.

The four of us are quite friendly, and after we exchanged our latest written rebuttals, we had quite a pleasant discussion before our case was called. I was even able to pick up some scuttlebutt about internal MOI politics and attitudes regarding “foreigners rights” here. I think that that information will prove to be very valuable in the coming months.

The Administrative Courts are not the Criminal Courts. The attitudes of the people are very good. It is a procedure you have to go through in order to get an impartial discussion of the merits of each side’s arguments in a dispute. That is all it is. In the end you get a judgement, and that has enforceability. There are many many issues that can be effectively dealt with in this fashion, so I really don’t know why people shy away from doing it.

Ideally, (in my modest opinion) every foreigner would be sponsoring/undertaking a test case that he felt was meaningful. Over the long term, that could really produce results that would be beneficial for everyone.

OK, Richard, points taken re: administrative vs criminal courts.

Ditto on the non-combatative atmosphere.

But I work full-time and days off are not easy to arrange. What then? And what kind of money are we talking about – for example, how much has your Irish client had to spend over the past six months?

In reply to Bai An: my husband was born in Taiwan and only gradutated from middle school at which point he started working as a cook. He already had been living in the US for like 6 years when I met him in NYC. (I had been to Taiwan for 3 years at that point). He was already committed to living in the US although he missed Taiwan. Many Chinese immigrants I know say about the US “zai meiguo ni dou mei you pengyou”, which means that you don’t have any friends in the US. His meaning was the kind of friends many Taiwanese have- friends they have grown up with who would make real sacrifices in money and time to help them. My husband had been working for a time in his father’s restaurant in NYC, and then when we moved near to my family, he got a job in a Chinese restaurant nearby. He had the skills so it was easy to get a job at the time. Now with all the illegal Chinese immigrants from Mainland China (especially Fu Jian province) flooding the US, opening or working in a Chinese restaurant isn’t as easy as it once was since the illegals work for practically nothing. Anyway, my husband has a recurring back problem. When it surfaced to the point he could no longer work for the pain, he was fired by his boss and did not receive worker’s comp since all these little Chinese restaurants “cook the books” and put people down as part-time instead of full-time. That way they don’t have to pay insurance and some other stuff I’m not that familiar with. So that motivated us to go to the casinoes in Atlantic City to find a job for him- which he did get after a second try. That brought benefits and quasi-Union protection (the Union there is crooked, but when they wouldn’t help us in one case, I became familiar with the National Labor Relations Board and the Equal Employment Oppurtunity Commission). Anyway, the ease with which your wife/girlfriend gets a job depends on what skills she has. She should bring all school documentation with her to your country as well as any immunization records she has. If she doesn’t have them, she’ll just get the shots in your country. My husband’s 4 brothers and their families plus his father only live an hour and a half away, so he doesn’t feel as isolated. He has Chinese friends from work and he reads the Chinese news and sometimes watches newsbroadcasts all on the internet. He prefers to speak Mandarin with me when he comes home tired. Our biggest problem is the children. They understand simple Mandarin but don’t want to speak it as it takes effort. We have all kinds of Mandarin Disney videos for them and they go to Chinese school (they are 4 and 6), but without Mandarin-speaking friends to play with (there aren’t any Chinese families closeby and the ones we meet at Chinese school- their children prefer to play using English, anyway), my childen will probably not be able to communicate with their father in the language he most feels comfortable with. Many Chinese I know living outside of cities often complain of boredom- but everyone makes their own adjustments to it. If you live in an area with a heavy concentration of Chinese from Taiwan like Flushing, NY or Monterey Park, CA, your girlfriend will have an easier time I would think. Over there you can get Taiwan TV and more Taiwan-oriented groceries, etc. Your girlfriend better have a trial run for a year. Goodluck!!!

I see from reading your previous posts that you never said you had a Taiwanese girlfriend who wanted to go back with you to the US- I was making a lot of assumptions. I hope they were right! Also, I forgot to answer your question about my job. I wish I had gone to graduate school and gotten a job where I could use my brain more. While teaching is important work, a lot of your success at it depends on your ability to motivate and design your lessons to minimize boredom so that kids don’t start acting up. But, being a mother who has time for her children is more important to me than a career, so I think ESL teaching, with the relatively lower stress and workload as compared to other teaching positions, and having the summers and lots of holidays off, is ideal for me. I could never do what my sister does. She is 40, 7 months pregnant with her second child (the first is 4 years old), and has to travel all over the country for days at a time while her husband takes care of their daughter after his work. When my children are older and don’t need me as much (sniff, sniff), I will consider changing careers. I can’t be a stay at home mom cuz my husband doesn’t make a lot of money (and for other reasons which I won’t get into here). Hope that helps!!!

I went back to Canada and then returned. Why? Some Taiwanese friends studying in Canada put it best: Canada is a jimo tiantang, Taiwan is a kuaile diyu. (Canada is a lonely heaven, Taiwan is a happy hell.) That’s pretty much the way I feel, too…

Actually, most cases are handled with one appearance in court. Many of the cases end up that way. It is about twenty minutes. However, there is a lot of paperwork to file before you get there.

If someone is seriously interested in an issue that affects foreigners, and is willing to go ahead and fight for it, then I am sure that we can reach some mutual agreement on how to deal with the fees and other costs involved.

Over a space of years, how much money and time is lost by being unable to do things which you can’t legally do? And the reason you can’t do them is because no one has stepped forward to get the entire situation straightened out.

If someone is really serious about an issue, they could also do some of their own fundraising, among friends and acquaintances, to get the ball rolling. Or whatever. The desire to “move forward” is the key, everything else will fall into place if that desire is there.

Thanks for the posts, V. You are indeed right - even though I hadn’t mentioned it in the posts, I do have a Taiwanese girlfriend. So, that makes things a bit more complicated. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Richard, and everyone,

I’m interested in being actively involved in helping improve human rights for foreigners in Taiwan. However, I feel the focus is rather huge as the foreign community is so diverse.

A specific area which I feel needs attention, that of workers rights for foreign English teaching professionals, is one long overdue. As I know, and I’ve posted my thoughts on this matter before, there is NO such organisation which oversees the RIGHTS of the foreign English teacher here in Taiwan. One issue for consideration is that many teachers are bound by bushiban contracts which can be manipulated to suit employers, but which are surreptitiously altered when it comes to protecting the teacher.
In such a case, where could the teacher get advice or help? Nowhere, to my knowledge.

I’ve just posted a poll in the Teaching in Taiwan Forum, because I’m curious whether or not there’s enough interest out there for us to take some preliminary steps towards protecting ourselves.

Should a committee be formed to protect the rights of foreign English teachers?

I have voted in your poll in the Teaching Taiwan Forum, and submitted comments. I will add some additional comments here.

Speaking from the point of view of my work with the foreign spouses’ groups, and all related splinter groups, over an eight year period, I would say that you do not need a lot of people in order to proceed. It might be nice to continually invite members to join such an informal organization (and by informal I mean that you do not need a formal registered organization to start), but basically you need a few committed people to do the work involved, or organize the doing of the work involved.

My strong recommendation from the start is: PAY FOR THE SERVICES YOU NEED. Do not use volunteer part-time help. I can state from experience that volunteers are an incredible hassle.

With this concept in mind, it is clear that you need to have fundraising, and someone has to keep a simple record of money coming in and money going out. I am not talking about a big amount here, but NT$ 1200 a year/per member is not much these days. That is $100 per month, collected in January. Members who join in other months would be pro-rated. Everyone’s dues come due in January.

If you want to have an email newsletter, fine, but remember that that takes a lot of time away from your main purpose, which is to advance an agenda of human rights. Keep it short and simple, and don’t get involved with stylistic considerations. Interested parties may receive one email newsletter for free. Other than that it is members only. Oriented sends out email newsletters once a week. Once every four weeks or once every six weeks might be adequate for such an organization as this.

Although a lot of people will initially volunteer for putting together a newsletter, handling the emailing details, etc., in my experience that quickly peters out, when they become confronted with the realities of handling subscriber details such as address changes, moves, cancellations, new subscriptions, altered subscriptions, missing remittances, overpayments, etc. Maybe the internet is advanced enough now to do all this via a YAHOO GROUP or something. When I evaluated the whole situation a few years ago, it did not seem to be, but the internet technology changes quickly.

One thing that always stymied the foreign spouses’ group was my specification that “all complaints about problems you are having in Taiwan should be submitted in writing, and are subject to requests for revisions or further clarifications.” People will come to a meeting and talk for 20 minutes about some problem they are having, but when you ask them to submit it in writing, they are too lazy to do so. As a result, with a fairly complicated problem, how do you deal with it? Do you ignore it? Or do you hire an English secretary to take down what they said and try to organize it? As some of the editors of the Taipei Times have stated in the Open Forum, even with fluent English skills, a new arrival in Taiwan cannot write a news story and get all the facts straight. In terms of being an English teacher in Changhwa County, a person who has no experience with the issue being discussed may have a very difficult time getting it written down in a comprehensible, organized, and accurate fashion. But, in fact, that HAS TO BE DONE. How can you attempt to solve a problem when you cannot even clearly state what the problem is? What if there is a need to communicate with government officials about this problem? Then one has to get the English statement translated into Chinese. (If the original English statement is not coherent, the Chinese translation will be less so.)

This is the problem that I (as a Moderator of the Human Rights Forum and Legal Matters Forum) run into on the Oriented website all the time. It is hard to even get the posters to give a totally clear description of the problem, with all necessary clarifications and qualifications stated fully. So, at the start, you need to be aware of this type of difficulty.

As a final note, take pains to avoid morphing into a social organization. In my view, parties, dinners, and other social events are not what a human rights organization is about. Attention to the myriad details involved in organizing those activities takes you away from your main focus, which is to advance an agenda of human rights. Some initial meeting(s), which may have a social overtone, may be necessary. After that, it should just be tea, coke, and water. Don’t make it into a social occasion. Or, as a compromise, you can state “meals will be furnished in the form of a box lunch, and we will collect NT$ XXX from each person who shows up by (such and such a time) at our meeting location and who wants to eat.” In other words, go Dutch. Don’t use organizational funds to pay for food and drinks. Don’t become an eating club. This is what typically happens in Taiwan.

Final Question: For those of your organization who do want to have social activities, do you make your member list (names, addresses, contact information) available to them?

If you do, then there is the real possiblity that a splinter group will develop, and again your members will lose sight of your original goal and purpose. If you don’t, they will complain. Hence, your PREMISES have to be stated very clearly at the outset.

Richard,
One problem that I have seen here is that of foreigners working under contract vs local Taiwanese.
Contracts for foreigners are usually basic with some statement about termination of the contract or that the contract need not be renewed by either party.
The problem comes where the Chinese management decides that they don’t want you anymore for a reason such as you made a bad joke at the supervisor’s expense or they don’t like your style of hair.
For a local, there are protections against unwarrented and unreasonable firings. But the foreigner has no such protection. I know of several instances where foreigners were either sacked on the spot or had their contracts not renewed on the virtual eve of their expiration.
This hangs the foreigner out to dry as his ability to stay in the country is linked to his employment.
Has there been any test cases for arbitrary dismissal of foreigners or is it a matter of forming contracts that needs to be changed?
If it is the latter, nothing will ever change as no Chinese will voluntarily empower a foreign worker.
By the way, I cannot recall an instance where a foreigner was sacked because of job performance. It has always been for “reasons” something like “bad influence,” “does not have the proper understanding/respect for the way Chinese do things,” “mentally unstable,” or simply “I don’t like you.”

Richard,

Thank you for your helpful advice.

If such a committee should ever convene, depending on the kind of interest generated, we will take those sensible points into consideration. Your input about taking dues, having a secretary, and sticking to the matters at hand, are very wise. We’re lucky to have someone with such insight here on Oriented. Thanks!

Now, I must run off to a meeting with foreigners which is not involved with protecting rights, but which adheres to a very strict agenda in the guise of a social/arts group!