Aftermath of Israel's attack on Gaza

Politics International Politics
1

No surprise.

[quote=“McClaychy”]The Israeli army’s chief prosecutor on Thursday announced an investigation into the killings of Palestinian civilians during Israel’s military incursion into Gaza earlier this year as soldiers’ testimony about the operation triggered a public furor.

The soldiers’ accounts, carried by two major Israeli newspapers on Thursday, cast doubt on repeated statements by the Israel Defense Force that it had taken every effort to spare the lives of civilians during the 23-day operation.

In one instance, an Israeli sharpshooter killed a Palestinian woman and her two children when they inadvertently took a wrong turn after being released from detention in their own home, Haaretz and Maariv reported, quoting a soldier who’d fought in Gaza.

"The platoon commander let the family go, and told them to go to the right. The mother and the two children didn’t understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof that they had let them go . . . " said an infantry squad leader, whom the papers didn’t identify by name or unit in their Thursday editions.

“The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away.”
[…]
Haaretz also quoted another unnamed squad leader as reporting that a company commander had ordered troops to shoot and kill an elderly woman who was walking on a road about 100 yards from a house the company had taken over.
[…]
McClatchy’s Dion Nissenbaum reported on Jan. 27 that Israeli troops had killed two young girls who were carrying white flags as they tried to escape their home in Ezbt Abed Rabbo, a Gaza neighborhood overlooking the border with Israel shortly after Israeli ground forces moved in on Jan. 3.

Nissenbaum reported on Feb. 2 that Israeli troops forced a Palestinian at gunpoint to walk through a battle zone to see whether militants targeted by Israel were dead or alive. McClatchy informed the IDF of the allegations contained in its stories prior to publication, and the IDF responded that it was investigating “a variety of allegations.”[/quote]Differs from the investigations in the wake of the war against Lebanon in that then it was the military brass and gov’t in the spotlight, and this time it’s the guys actually doing the fighting.

In the words of one:

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100 Palestinian lifes are not worth even one Jewsih fingernail…didn’t the PM if isreal say that?

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and this. :frowning:

Israeli Soldier Says Military Rabbis Framed Gaza Mission as Religious

JERUSALEM, March 20 – A soldier involved in Israel’s recent military offensive in the Gaza Strip said in published reports Friday that the military’s rabbinical staff distributed material characterizing the operation as a religious mission to “get rid of the gentiles who disturb us from conquering the holy land.”
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 03463.html

I hope this is an obscure point of view.

4

Well if not for the emotional baggage, this poor neighbourhood dog fight would’ve ended decades ago, Time to accept they’re as mad as cut snakes and cut that branch off the vine.

I do think Obama making overtures to Iran is very positive.

HG

5

Another ox gored.

[quote=“Slate: Hitchens”]Possibly you remember Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the man who in February 1994 unslung his weapon and killed more than two dozen worshippers at the mosque in Hebron. He had been a physician in the Israeli army and had first attracted attention by saying that he would refuse to treat non-Jews on the Sabbath. Now read Ethan Bronner’s report in the March 22 New York Times about the preachments of [color=#000000]the Israeli army’s latest chief rabbi, a West Bank settler named Avichai Rontzski who also holds the rank of brigadier general[/color]. He has “said that the main reason for a Jewish doctor to treat a non-Jew on the Sabbath … is to avoid exposing Diaspora Jews to hatred.” Those of us who follow these things recognize that statement as one of the leading indicators of a truly determined racist and fundamentalist. Yet it comes not this time in the garb of a homicidal lone-wolf nut bag but in the full uniform and accoutrement of a general and a high priest: Moses and Eleazar combined. The latest news, according to Bronner, is that the Israeli Defense Ministry has felt compelled to reprimand Rontzski for “a rabbinal edict against showing the enemy mercy” that was distributed in booklet form to men and women in uniform.

Peering over the horrible pile of Palestinian civilian casualties that has immediately resulted, it’s fairly easy to see where this is going in the medium-to-longer term. The zealot settlers and their clerical accomplices are establishing an army within the army so that one day, if it is ever decided to disband or evacuate the colonial settlements, there will be enough officers and soldiers, stiffened by enough rabbis and enough extremist sermons, to refuse to obey the order. Torah verses will also be found that make it permissible to murder secular Jews as well as Arabs. The dress rehearsals for this have already taken place, with the religious excuses given for Baruch Goldstein’s rampage and the Talmudic evasions concerning the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. Once considered highly extreme, such biblical exegeses are moving ever closer to the mainstream. It’s high time the United States cut off any financial support for Israel that can be used even indirectly for settler activity, not just because such colonization constitutes a theft of another people’s land but also because our Constitution absolutely forbids us to spend public money on the establishment of any religion.[/quote]

What’s the common excuse for Israeli excess: they’re a democracy holding back violent religious extremists?

6

I think the U.S. can finally cut off support to Israel. For way too long the western world were bound by guilt over the WWII era. But with Israel being so clearly in the wrong, I think Americans will finally come to their senses.

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Whats your point Jaboney?

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guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ma … horus-gaza

[quote]Israel’s military fired white phosphorus over crowded areas of Gaza repeatedly and indiscriminately in its three-week war, killing and injuring civilians and committing war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In a 71-page report, the rights group said the repeated use of air-burst white phosphorus artillery shells in populated areas of Gaza was not incidental or accidental, but revealed “a pattern or policy of conduct”.

It said the Israeli military used white phosphorus in a “deliberate or reckless” way. The report says:

• Israel was aware of the dangers of white phosphorus.

• It chose not to use alternative and less dangerous smoke shells.

• In one case, Israel even ignored repeated warnings from UN staff before hitting the main UN compound in Gaza with white phosphorus shells on 15 January.

“In Gaza, the Israeli military didn’t just use white phosphorus in open areas as a screen for its troops,” said Fred Abrahams, a senior Human Rights Watch researcher. “It fired white phosphorus repeatedly over densely populated areas, even when its troops weren’t in the area and safe smoke shells were available. As a result, civilians needlessly suffered and died.”
[/quote]

It’s inhuman. :raspberry:

I hope Israel never gets any weapons or financial support ever again.

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That the long conflict and occupation is dehumanizing both sides and delegitimazing (already dubious) claims that supporting Israel is a necessary means of holding back the barbarian hordes. Neither side in this conflict is clean as the driven snow. It’s long past time to recognize that and craft appropriate policies.

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That the long conflict and occupation is dehumanizing both sides and delegitimazing (already dubious) claims that supporting Israel is a necessary means of holding back the barbarian hordes. Neither side in this conflict is clean as the driven snow. It’s long past time to recognize that and craft appropriate policies.[/quote]

Well said.

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Jaboney -
To accept your premises one must accept the assertions you make to substantiate these assertions as true. Sorry…they are patently false. Just look at the loaded phrases you use:
“That the long conflict and occupation is dehumanizing both sides and delegitimazing (already dubious) claims that supporting Israel is a necessary means of holding back the barbarian hordes.”

This establishes as ‘facts’ several items which are indeed not ‘facts.’

  1. An “occupation”…of what by who? Loaded and designed to slant the concusions…eh?
  2. “dehumanizing”…say what? As in reducing the ‘humanity’ of one side to give moral and possibly legal credence to the other? Loaded and another attempt to establish as ‘fact’ something which is not a ‘fact.’
  3. “…delegitimazing (already dubious) claims that supporting Israel is a necessary means of holding back the barbarian hordes.” (I like the word so I’ll ignore my spullchuck) Again, making assertions which are nothing more than loaded canards. Loaded, loaded and loaded…and again, unsubstantiated assertions that exists only to support a false premise(s)(i). In believing this, one must automatically be guilty of believing any group which Israel opposes must be regarded by Israel, and anyone supporting them, as “barbarian hordes.” Thus buying into your premise of Israel, and any supporter of Israel, as viewing any opponent as " a lesser form of life." Neat packaging but its leaking terribly. Rejected! False premise supported only by false assertions.

Lets look at whats developed in this specific instance:

Reports of IDF Crimes: Fiction Based on Rumors
[i]"(IsraelNN.com) Claims that IDF soldiers deliberately killed civilians during Operation Cast Lead were based in hearsay, a military investigation has concluded. The two soldiers who first reported the alleged incidents several weeks ago had not seen the incidents themselves, and had no personal knowledge to support the allegations.

Despite the fact that the claims were based in rumor, IDF investigators examined each reported attack on a non-combatant to ensure that the rumors were not based in truth. No evidence was found to indicate that the incidents took place, they concluded.

"Investigators found that the soldiers who made dramatic claims of IDF crimes during the conference had embellished the stories for dramatic effect, making it sound as if they had personal knowledge of the cases when in fact they had not witnessed the events in question.

One soldier claimed that soldiers had fired at an elderly woman. He later admitted that the story was based on a rumor, which was apparently based on an incident in which soldiers fired on a woman suspected of being a suicide bomber after she ignored several calls to stop.

The same soldier admitted that he had not witnessed any of the incidents he described during the conference.

A second soldier who participated in the conference had claimed that an IDF sniper shot a woman and her two children after they wandered into a no-fire zone. In fact, the woman and children were not fired on at all; rather, soldiers had fired on two suspicious men who were in a different area.

Other claims made at the conference, regarding the military’s use of phosphorous, were based on media reports and not personal experience, soldiers admitted."[/i]…more at link
from the article:
The allegations first came to light at a conference at the Rabin Military Mechina (pre-army preparation program). The director of the program, Danny Zamir, is on the far left of the political spectrum and accused the IDF of killing children in Gaza prior to the conference."
The claims are false and the facts are coming out with investigation.

Some more coverage of this:
UN retracts claim over Gaza school attack
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 20:49
“The UN has retracted a claim that an Israeli strike, which killed more than 40 people in northern Gaza last month, hit a school run by a UN agency.
‘The humanitarian coordinator would like to clarify that the shelling, and all of the fatalities, took place outside rather than inside the school,’ said the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.”…excerpt.

others:
rte.ie/news/2009/0204/gaza.html
abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 … 482698.htm
news.yahoo.com.au/a/-/world/5301 … za-school/
worthychristianforums.com/Re … 00098.html )

No, its not a simple matter. There are no simple political solutions. But following the facts is a good start.
Also following the money. But I’ve mentioned that before.

12

I’ve got a question for you, TC, since you’re questioning Jaboney’s premises and therefore the objectivity of his assertions of fact. Do you think it’s a fact that Israel has a legal and moral right to expel all Arabs from Israel, Judea/Samaria (ie. "The Occupied Territories) and Gaza?

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[quote=“spook”]I’ve got a question for you, TC, since you’re questioning Jaboney’s premises and therefore the objectivity of his assertions of fact. Do you think it’s a fact that Israel has a legal and moral right to expel all Arabs from Israel, Judea/Samaria (ie. "The Occupied Territories) and Gaza?[/quote]Spook -
Playing fast & loose yourself, huh?

Show me something to support your allegation that Israel is attempting to do exactly what you claim in exactly the areas you claim.

Other than that, you’re asking a hypothetical question designed to elicit a hypothetical response that can only frame Israel in a negative manner. Lets see what ya got?

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[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“spook”]I’ve got a question for you, TC, since you’re questioning Jaboney’s premises and therefore the objectivity of his assertions of fact. Do you think it’s a fact that Israel has a legal and moral right to expel all Arabs from Israel, Judea/Samaria (ie. "The Occupied Territories) and Gaza?[/quote]Spook -
Playing fast & loose yourself, huh?

Show me something to support your allegation that Israel is attempting to do exactly what you claim in exactly the areas you claim.

Other than that, you’re asking a hypothetical question designed to elicit a hypothetical response that can only frame Israel in a negative manner. Lets see what ya got?[/quote]

So you question Jaboney’s premises in detail but don’t want us to know what yours are so we can judge whether you’re a credible source information about the IDF’s treatment of Palestinians?

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[quote=“spook”][quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“spook”]I’ve got a question for you, TC, since you’re questioning Jaboney’s premises and therefore the objectivity of his assertions of fact. Do you think it’s a fact that Israel has a legal and moral right to expel all Arabs from Israel, Judea/Samaria (ie. "The Occupied Territories) and Gaza?[/quote]Spook -
Playing fast & loose yourself, huh?

Show me something to support your allegation that Israel is attempting to do exactly what you claim in exactly the areas you claim.

Other than that, you’re asking a hypothetical question designed to elicit a hypothetical response that can only frame Israel in a negative manner. Lets see what ya got?[/quote]So you question Jaboney’s premises in detail but don’t want us to know what yours are so we can judge whether you’re a credible source information about the IDF’s treatment of Palestinians?[/quote]Spook -
Say what?.. :loco:

Just answer the question.
“Show me something to support your allegation that Israel is attempting to do exactly what you claim in exactly the areas you claim.”
Show us what you’ve got.

16

You know, if it was me asking the Cowboy this sort of stuff I’d sort of be questioning why he constantly seeks to be on the wrong side of history. He does have a rather impeccable record for earnestly backing failing regimes.

HG

17

[quote=“Jaboney”]No surprise.

[quote=“McClaychy”]The Israeli army’s chief prosecutor on Thursday announced an investigation into the killings of Palestinian civilians during Israel’s military incursion into Gaza earlier this year as soldiers’ testimony about the operation triggered a public furor.

The soldiers’ accounts, carried by two major Israeli newspapers on Thursday, cast doubt on repeated statements by the Israel Defense Force that it had taken every effort to spare the lives of civilians during the 23-day operation.

{…}

Nissenbaum reported on Feb. 2 that Israeli troops forced a Palestinian at gunpoint to walk through a battle zone to see whether militants targeted by Israel were dead or alive. McClatchy informed the IDF of the allegations contained in its stories prior to publication, and the IDF responded that it was investigating “a variety of allegations.”[/quote]

Differs from the investigations in the wake of the war against Lebanon in that then it was the military brass and gov’t in the spotlight, and this time it’s the guys actually doing the fighting.[/quote]

No, it most certainly is a surprise. It’s not being covered up this time and whitewashed by the rightwing media.

Israel’s current terrorism and use of Palestinian civilians as human shields is no different than what’s been going on for the last 50 years. The only difference is, people are starting to pay attention.

[quote=“Jaboney”]In the words of one:

Careful, now. Don’t you know that pointing out Israeli terrorism makes you a Nazi? Or pointing out the history of the Israeli Terrorist Force (the ITF) of shooting farmers in fields as “target practice” is an “anti-semetic” act, despite the Palestinians being semites themselves?

bendib.com/media/sm.-Da-Spin.jpg

bendib.com/palestine/Good-vs … eansng.jpg

bendib.com/palestine/CANNIBAL.jpg

bendib.com/palestine/Man-of-Peace.jpg

bendib.com/palestine/War-on-Error.jpg

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[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]and this. :frowning:

Israeli Soldier Says Military Rabbis Framed Gaza Mission as Religious

JERUSALEM, March 20 – A soldier involved in Israel’s recent military offensive in the Gaza Strip said in published reports Friday that the military’s rabbinical staff distributed material characterizing the operation as a religious mission to “get rid of the gentiles who disturb us from conquering the holy land.”
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 03463.html

I hope this is an obscure point of view.[/quote]

In the past few years, many christians who leave Israel are being barred from returning, and that include legal citizens of Israel. There’s a movement to create “pure” jewish state with no non-jews allowed to live there.

Gee, where have we heard that before?

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[quote=“Sleepyhead”]In the past few years, many christians who leave Israel are being barred from returning, and that include legal citizens of Israel. There’s a movement to create “pure” jewish state with no non-jews allowed to live there.

Gee, where have we heard that before?[/quote]

Really? What ‘movement’ is this? An official government policy? Or something you’ve simply invented or blown out of proportion? Your record for intellectual honesty in this discussion (and others), is manifestly poor, so pardon me if I entertain doubts regarding your offhand comments posted without any evidence whatever.

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Israel’s getting pretty brave.

[quote]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562884503&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The Lebanese army said on Wednesday that 16 Israeli warplanes violated Lebanon’s airspace by flying over the country.

An army statement said that the Israeli overflights lasted more than an hour and were in violation of a UN resolution that ended the Second Lebanon War.

According to the statement released Wednesday, 10 Israeli jets flew in batches over southern border towns and villages and then headed north.

It said that another six Israeli warplanes flew in batches over the Mediterranean off the southern city of Sidon and off the coastal town of Jounieh and the city of Byblos in the north before heading east.

There was no immediate statement from the Israeli military. [/quote]

Why would they want to fly over Lebanon? What good could come of it?