Aftermath of Israel's attack on Gaza

Politics International Politics
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GOOD GOD

[quote]Petraeus says Israel might choose to attack Iran

iranfocus.com/en/nuclear/pet … 17491.html

April 1 (Bloomberg) –– Israel might choose to attack Iran to prevent it from developing a nuclear bomb, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East said today.

Army General David Petraeus told Congress that “the Israeli government may ultimately see itself so threatened by the prospect of an Iranian nuclear weapon that it would take preemptive military action to derail or delay it.”

[/quote]

Okay, I am going to try to see both sides for a minute here.
You know, I don’t like Israeli aggression, but Israel BASICALLY has no choice. They really don’t. Anyone who has ever spent 2 seconds living on “planet reality” knows that Irans final goal is a bomb. They are going to try and get it, end of story. I really don’t blame them for that. They are close to getting it, maybe 5 years max. Once that happens Hezbullah and Hamas (Iranian Clients) will act with impunity because they think Iran will protect them. SO I can understand how Israel can fear that if Hamas launches rockets into Sderot and Israel Threatens invasion or retaliation then Iran will say “step one foot in there and we’ll nuke Tel Aviv.”

Iran might get the bomb when Obama is president. He wont do anything and neither will the EU. Canada is on Israel’s side politically but does anyone believe we would do anything like send troops? Israel knows this. Either they will do it or no one will do it. If they do get the bomb then I guess the world will find out how reasonable Iran is. I hope Iran is reasonable.

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The Iranians aren’t suicidal. They’ll get the bomb.

Then the Saudis will get the bomb. Does Turkey have one hidden away?

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[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]GOOD GOD . . .
Okay, I am going to try to see both sides for a minute here.
You know, I don’t like Israeli aggression, but Israel BASICALLY has no choice. They really don’t. Anyone who has ever spent 2 seconds living on “planet reality” knows that Irans final goal is a bomb. They are going to try and get it, end of story. I really don’t blame them for that. They are close to getting it, maybe 5 years max. Once that happens Hezbullah and Hamas (Iranian Clients) will act with impunity because they think Iran will protect them. SO I can understand how Israel can fear that if Hamas launches rockets into Sderot and Israel Threatens invasion or retaliation then Iran will say “step one foot in there and we’ll nuke Tel Aviv.”

Iran might get the bomb when Obama is president. He wont do anything and neither will the EU. Canada is on Israel’s side politically but does anyone believe we would do anything like send troops? Israel knows this. Either they will do it or no one will do it. If they do get the bomb then I guess the world will find out how reasonable Iran is. I hope Iran is reasonable.[/quote]

One thing to consider is that the same people who have convinced you that “Iran’s final goal is a bomb” are the same people who convinced you that Iraq had a bomb and they knew exactly where it was.

Another thing to consider is why Iran is such a high priority for the U.S. government when a much greater threat is developing within range of U.S. soil. A country whose ruler is a brutal, egomaniacal dictator nearing the end of his life and which has admitted it has fissile material and is on a crash course to weaponize it. A country which has also launched an attack on one of its neighbors in recent memory and continually threatens to do so again.

[quote]Pentagon officials worry less about the payload and more about the launch itself, saying any kind of launch will give the North Koreans valuable information about improving their ballistic missile program.

“I don’t know anyone at a senior level in the American government who does not believe this technology is intended as a mask for the development of an intercontinental ballistic missile,” U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said on Sunday. . . .

Gates noted that while the United States believes it is North Korea’s “long-term intent” to add a nuclear warhead to any such rocket, he “personally would be skeptical that they have the ability right now to do that.”

Gates said that the U.S. military could shoot down “an aberrant missile, one that was headed for Hawaii … or something like that, we might consider it, but I don’t think we have any plans to (do) anything like that at this point.”

He does not believe North Korea currently has the technology to reach Alaska or Pacific coast.[/quote]

In contrast, the Obama Administration’s Special Representative for North Korea Policy, Ambassador Stephen Bosworth, works part-time in what can best be described as a hands-off, isolationist policy towards Kim Jong Il.

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Iran’s only possible use for the uranium it is enriching must be a weapon, because it sure as hell won’t run in their reactor. Russia supplies all their necessary fuel for that, anyway, and takes home the waste. As it should be for a state who has repeatedly called or the annihilation of Israel.

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That’s one I hadn’t heard before. Where did you get that claim?

And as far as threatening to annihilate: [quote]In its warning Thursday, (North Korea) said that if Japan intercepts the missile, “[b]the Korean People’s Army will mercilessly deal deadly blows not only at the already deployed intercepting means but at major targets.”

North Korea has about 200 midrange Nodong missiles that are capable of striking nearly every part of Japan, according to the Defense Ministry in Tokyo. . . .
[/b]
Although it is one of the poorest countries in Asia, North Korea has made itself into the “greatest supplier of missiles, missile components and related technologies” in the developing world, according to a 2008 report for the U.S. Army War College’s Strategic Studies Institute.

It has sold missiles to Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Egypt, Libya and Yemen – and received hundreds of millions of dollars, according to the Center for Nonproliferation Studies in Monterey, Calif.

North Korea warned Monday that it will interpret as a “declaration of war” any move by South Korea to join the U.S.-led Proliferation Security Initiative, a multination effort begun during the Bush administration to intercept shipments of nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction by countries such as North Korea. . . .
[/quote]

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Well, theoretically they could put the fuel into their Bushehr reactor, but they are contractually obliged to buy fuel from Russia and to send it back to the Russians after it’s spent. The Bushehr reactor is not great at making plutonium, anyway, as its design means it makes too much Pu240, 241 and 242, therefore diluting the Pu239 you want for bombs.

No such problem with the heavy water Arak reactor, however, which is perhaps where the enriched uranium is going. Arak is a heavy water reactor, like the one at Dimona, and the higher neutron flux possible means that fuel is converted into Pu faster, thus making a much higher ratio of Pu239. Arak is out of bounds to the IAEA, and work is continuing on its covert construction behind closed doors and roofs.

Iran has admitted to making more than 350 tons of UF6, from which it may be able to make mor than enough enriched uranium to feed the Arak reactor to make several hundred kilos of Pu239. Pu239 is the important point here, as none of the Iranian missiles (Scud 3 and 4, Shahab 4) have the payload volume to deliver a uranium boom, but they certainly can carry a much smaller plutonium bomb.

globalsecurity.org/wmd/world … -intro.htm

iranwatch.org/privateviews/F … r-1203.htm

wrmea.com/archives/sept03/0309028.html

iranwatch.org/update/

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Excellent post Urodacious. Wonder how far they are away from actually making enough plutonium for a sizeable bang.

It would appear that Israel has coonsidered to use tactical nuclear weapons to put Iran’s nuclear programme out of commission, at least for the security and safety of the world, I hope that Iran will stop their development of nuclear weapons.

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That’s one I hadn’t heard before. Where did you get that claim?[/quote]

Delusional windbag chickenhawks aren’t interested in the facts.

The UN said Saddam didn’t have WMDs, the US said he did. Who was right?

The UN now says Iran is building a reactor for electricity, the US says it’s to build bombs.

Who are you going to believe? I’ll go with the side which has credibility and a track record of being right, not a bunch of genocidal oil-thieves.

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That’s one I hadn’t heard before. Where did you get that claim?[/quote]

Delusional windbag chickenhawks aren’t interested in the facts.

The UN said Saddam didn’t have WMDs, the US said he did. Who was right?

The UN now says Iran is building a reactor for electricity, the US says it’s to build bombs.

Who are you going to believe? I’ll go with the side which has credibility and a track record of being right, not a bunch of genocidal oil-thieves.[/quote]

Are you referring to the U.N. as having credibility, and a record of being right?
That’s such a laughably inept statement. Clearly you have never been anywhere near a U.N. peacekeeping mission, or it’s great gaping bowels of bureaucracy.
The UN is a despicable gravy train forum for the expression of international hatred that should be moved to Greenland forthwith.

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Could be worse. There was a video out of Pakistan of a girl being flogged… no one’s being beaten here.

Saudi Arabia now has one female cabinet minister. Apparently she’s permitted to communicate with her boss via closed circuit tv. This isn’t that bad either.

Still, not a subculture worth defending.

[quote=“Huffington Post”]
Two women serve in Israel’s new Cabinet, but some Israelis would rather not see them.

Newspapers aimed at ultra-Orthodox Jewish readers tampered with the inaugural photograph of the Cabinet, erasing ministers Limor Livnat and Sofa Landver.

Ultra-Orthodox newspapers consider it immodest to print images of women.

The daily Yated Neeman digitally changed the photo, moving two male ministers into the places formerly occupied by the women.

The weekly Shaa Tova simply blacked the women out, in a photo reprinted Friday by the mainstream daily Maariv.[/quote]

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[quote=“Jaboney”]Another ox gored.

[quote=“Slate: Hitchens”]Possibly you remember Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the man who in February 1994 unslung his weapon and killed more than two dozen worshippers at the mosque in Hebron. He had been a physician in the Israeli army and had first attracted attention by saying that he would refuse to treat non-Jews on the Sabbath. Now read Ethan Bronner’s report in the March 22 New York Times about the preachments of [color=#000000]the Israeli army’s latest chief rabbi, a West Bank settler named Avichai Rontzski who also holds the rank of brigadier general[/color]. He has “said that the main reason for a Jewish doctor to treat a non-Jew on the Sabbath … is to avoid exposing Diaspora Jews to hatred.” Those of us who follow these things recognize that statement as one of the leading indicators of a truly determined racist and fundamentalist. Yet it comes not this time in the garb of a homicidal lone-wolf nut bag but in the full uniform and accoutrement of a general and a high priest: Moses and Eleazar combined. The latest news, according to Bronner, is that the Israeli Defense Ministry has felt compelled to reprimand Rontzski for “a rabbinal edict against showing the enemy mercy” that was distributed in booklet form to men and women in uniform.

Peering over the horrible pile of Palestinian civilian casualties that has immediately resulted, it’s fairly easy to see where this is going in the medium-to-longer term. The zealot settlers and their clerical accomplices are establishing an army within the army so that one day, if it is ever decided to disband or evacuate the colonial settlements, there will be enough officers and soldiers, stiffened by enough rabbis and enough extremist sermons, to refuse to obey the order. Torah verses will also be found that make it permissible to murder secular Jews as well as Arabs. The dress rehearsals for this have already taken place, with the religious excuses given for Baruch Goldstein’s rampage and the Talmudic evasions concerning the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. Once considered highly extreme, such biblical exegeses are moving ever closer to the mainstream. It’s high time the United States cut off any financial support for Israel that can be used even indirectly for settler activity, not just because such colonization constitutes a theft of another people’s land but also because our Constitution absolutely forbids us to spend public money on the establishment of any religion.[/quote]

What’s the common excuse for Israeli excess: they’re a democracy holding back violent religious extremists?[/quote]

Worth highlighting that piece again, methinks, especially the intro para.

[quote]An Army of Extremists - How some military rabbis are trying to radicalize Israeli soldiers.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, March 23, 2009, at 4:32 PM ET
Recent reports of atrocities committed by Israeli soldiers in the course of the intervention in Gaza have described the incitement of conscripts and reservists by military rabbis who characterized the battle as a holy war for the expulsion of non-Jews from Jewish land. The secular Israeli academic Dany Zamir, who first brought the testimony of shocked Israeli soldiers to light, has been quoted as if the influence of such extremist clerical teachings was something new. This is not the case.[/quote]
Of course it is nothing new, the army Rabbi “offering religious guidance” to the man that took the old city in the six day war was urging him to blow up the al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock after they’d taken it.

That’s the wiki on that one, but it’s flawed if you think about it. I mean who do you trust? The voice of the man that led the charge, Gen Narkiss, or this bearded religious nutter, who later basically fesses up to it, and his equally religious crank offsider?

Same dirty end of the vine as far as I’m concerned. One snip on the financial pipeline, and its back to your rocks and slingshots, suckers.

HG

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[quote=“TheGingerMan”]
The UN is a despicable gravy train forum for the expression of international hatred that should be moved to Greenland forthwith.[/quote]

Yip. At least this time, some of the delegates walked out. However, some were still clapping at Iran’s leader. I really hope Bibi sends in the calvalry toute suite and shows the world again (as they did in '82 in Baghdad) what the Israeli Air Force can do. :bravo:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8008572.stm

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[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]
That’s the wiki on that one, but it’s flawed if you think about it. I mean who do you trust? The voice of the man that led the charge, Gen Narkiss, or this bearded religious nutter, who later basically fesses up to it, and his equally religious crank offsider?

Same dirty end of the vine as far as I’m concerned. One snip on the financial pipeline, and its back to your rocks and slingshots, suckers.

HG[/quote]

There’s a new American TV show that had parallels to your quote. It’s called "Kings" and it’s the biblical story of David moved to modern day setting. It stars Ian McShane as one of the leading roles, King Silas. The reason I bring this up is two quotes that reminded me of the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It won’t give away any details of the plot but if you don’t want to read below here is your: Spoiler Warning

Quote one: “God gave us this land and not even King Silas himself can take it from us!”. A farmer in Silas’s kingdom.

Quote two: “You have built so much wealth and our people see what you have and want it too”. A quote referring to the people of Gath, but you could replace “Gath” with “Palestinians” and have the same effect.

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Op ed piece in the Washington Post by Richard Cohen.

[quote=“Washington Post”]
Hamas’s Bloody Hands

Some residents of Gaza were taken from their homes and shot in the legs or feet. Some were brutally beaten, and some were simply murdered, sometimes after hideous torture. If you are expecting – based on everything that has happened – that the awful Israelis did this, guess again. It was Hamas, the authentic and genuine government of Gaza. Well, no one’s perfect.

The information about the shootings is taken from a report issued yesterday by Human Rights Watch. It says that “Hamas security forces or masked gunmen believed to be with Hamas” executed 18 people, most of whom were accused of collaborating with Israel, sparing the expense and bother of a trial. Others were shot, maimed or beaten, not for allegedly collaborating with the enemy – or, as is often the case, having a house or woman that a snitch covets – but for belonging to the opposition political party, Fatah.

Many of these murders and assaults took place during Israel’s recent pummeling of Gaza. Yet, as Human Rights Watch goes to some pains to document, at no time did Hamas’s security forces lose control of Gaza, so the murders and maimings were not a consequence of chaos but of government policy. Whatever the case, the murders, shootings and beatings continued even after the hostilities ended. Since then, at least 14 more people have been executed extrajudicially, which is to say murdered. Some were also tortured.
[/quote]

Cohen then goes on to talk about all the things that Israel is doing wrong, like making life unbearable for the Palestinians, occupying the West Bank, supporting illegal settlements and squeezing Gaza. He also states that the only way the West Bank will be handed over is if there are US peacekeepers there to prevent Hamas from taking over and launching rockets on all of Israel.

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[quote=“lbksig”]Op ed piece in the Washington Post by Richard Cohen.

[quote=“Washington Post”]
Hamas’s Bloody Hands

Some residents of Gaza were taken from their homes and shot in the legs or feet. Some were brutally beaten, and some were simply murdered, sometimes after hideous torture. If you are expecting – based on everything that has happened – that the awful Israelis did this, guess again. It was Hamas, the authentic and genuine government of Gaza. Well, no one’s perfect.

The information about the shootings is taken from a report issued yesterday by Human Rights Watch. It says that “Hamas security forces or masked gunmen believed to be with Hamas” executed 18 people, most of whom were accused of collaborating with Israel, sparing the expense and bother of a trial. Others were shot, maimed or beaten, not for allegedly collaborating with the enemy – or, as is often the case, having a house or woman that a snitch covets – but for belonging to the opposition political party, Fatah.

Many of these murders and assaults took place during Israel’s recent pummeling of Gaza. Yet, as Human Rights Watch goes to some pains to document, at no time did Hamas’s security forces lose control of Gaza, so the murders and maimings were not a consequence of chaos but of government policy. Whatever the case, the murders, shootings and beatings continued even after the hostilities ended. Since then, at least 14 more people have been executed extrajudicially, which is to say murdered. Some were also tortured.
[/quote]

Cohen then goes on to talk about all the things that Israel is doing wrong, like making life unbearable for the Palestinians, occupying the West Bank, supporting illegal settlements and squeezing Gaza. He also states that the only way the West Bank will be handed over is if there are US peacekeepers there to prevent Hamas from taking over and launching rockets on all of Israel.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity which logical fallacy are you appealing to here?

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He isn’t.