Agriculture in Taiwan

I agree, raccoon. Your early years of nocturnal foraging, raiding garbage bins, and climbing trees have obviously given you a good handle on these issues.

Farmers are really their own worst enemy. Instead of organising and educating themselves, they accept that they’re just “simple folk” and do whatever they’re told by “smarter” middlemen, salesmen, and politicians. Farmers actually have huge political power, and they don’t even realise it. Without them, any country is on its knees. I suppose, traditionally, they’ve always been under the boot and perhaps carry some sort of genetic memory of what happens to farmers when they get uppity.

Fortunately, there is a new breed of young farmers - degree-educated, business-minded, IT-savvy - who are much less likely to listen to bullshit from idiots in suits. Many of them have concluded for themselves that intensive, chemical-fed agriculture just doesn’t work. They can do the numbers and join the dots, and the conclusions are inescapable. These people will, I think, set things right eventually.

The word ‘organic’ is meaningless, and the certification bodies that exist today are worse than useless. They’re mostly just employment agencies for workshy sociology graduates. Their fees are outrageous, and the paperwork burdensome and restrictive (they all have their own view on what “organic” means). The net result is that they add cost without adding value. I can’t help wondering if this is deliberate, because it helps sabotage the market for quality produce.

It’s in the nature of any third-party consultancy is that they will charge high inspection fees. TUV and UL are no different. The UK implementation of CE marking is (IMO) much better. It allows self-certification, but God help you if you’re found to have skipped your due diligence or lied on your declaration. It works well, because most manufacturers have a reputation to uphold, they know that products are policed, and even the small guy can afford the relatively low costs involved in good design, basic testing, and self-certification.

I think this model would work better for farmers, not least because there are so many different ways of doing “organic”. In my head, I imagined that the trading platform would function as a sort of ad-hoc rating system too: not just for presence/absence of chemicals, but general quality. Universities could offer testing or inspection for farmers who wanted it, and they could publish a customized report on the farmer’s trading page. Otherwise, consumers (or small retailers) could post “ratings” for produce purchased, just like eBay.

Exactly. I think middlemen would inevitably arise - the farming equivalent of drop-shippers - but that’s fine. It would genuinely enhance efficiency (most farmers won’t want packing and shipping operations on-site). They’d be providing a service to the farmers, rather than the farmer being beholden to them as bulk-buyers. There would also be Groupon-like guys at the other end doing what you did with the lychees. It would make sense if these people - ‘packers’ and ‘unpackers’ - were explicitly brought into the trading platform.

Where I see the most potential is that farmers could interact directly with customers. Whereas supermarkets insist they’re “providing what customers want”, a trading platform really could elicit the Voice of the Customer. They could post requests for things they want, or just generally make their feelings known. A farmer could also sell “futures”: he might walk around the farm and observe the papaya will be ready X days from now and post a status update. Buyers could then make early bids. Restaurants could plan special menus based on known availability of ultra-fresh produce.

Integrate this with an automated transport network and you could get food from farm to table literally within the hour. This is what I’m aiming for, but we won’t see it happen until the oil runs out.

Thought I’d bump this thread with this article about how small farmers are organizing themselves in China:

scmp.com/news/china/article/ … griculture

How’s the project going finley? Any new insights into farming in Taiwan?

That’s bloody awesome. It’s nice to know I’m not just pontificating about stuff that will never happen :slight_smile:

:thumbsup:

The difficulty, I believe, is getting farmers to actually buy into this message:

As I’ve said elsewhere, there’s are reasons poor people are poor. It’s really, really hard to point out these reasons to their face without coming across as a supercilious know-it-all (especially if one actually is a supercilious know-it-all). This guy Chen’s achievement, I think, is to break down the mistrust, backstabbing, and victim mentality that persists in rural communities. I can’t do it, I’m afraid. I start off OK, but I eventually get really riled with people who seem to deliberately harm themselves, and I just give up. I’ve asked other people about it afterwards (people who speak the language and know the people). What’s going on here, I want to know. How can anyone voluntarily choose to do things that guarantee eternal poverty? And they tell me: they’re just really stupid people; this is the way they’ve always done things, and they’ll never change. So apparently it’s not just me, but I can’t cope with that. Hopefully other people can.

As you may be able to guess from the above - not great :smiley: It’s complicated. There are workarounds that will allow me to actually get on with the project, but very suboptimal ones.

Thanks for the update finley and I can imagine the frustration in trying to do something against the grain in Taiwan. I guess the path is well-worn and hard to get out of. Got to give it to the young entrepreneurs in China for at least attempting to organize a small business for themselves. As we discussed earlier, Taiwan would be much easier to get products from farmer to consumers simply due to logistics.

Oh, this is the Philippines, not Taiwan. Quite a few of the neighbours took an interest in my little plot here, and occasionally stop and chat. The Philippines is just an alternate universe. While I understand why people there think the way they do, it still freaks me out.

Absolutely. The guy in the article sounds like he’s got it nailed. People like him are going to take China to the next level … as long as people not like him don’t shut him down. Never underestimate the crab mentality. One thing I’d like to do - if it’s at all possible - is meet some of these people and ask them “so how did you do it?”. I mean, not the technical stuff - that’s easy - but the politics and the marketing.

You know, while we sit here pontificating on the internet, people are stealing our ideas:

treehugger.com/bikes/solar-p … erdam.html

From the ‘technology’ thread:

This is fun. I have a window box, and a few crates of earth on the roof containing things like chilis, herbs, and a few veg. Both have automatic irrigation. Plants in general seem to respond to frequent watering - the boxes on the roof gets sprayed 4-5 times a day, and everything’s growing really well. The balcony box has been sadly neglected lately, but in its prime it was overflowing with herbs, stevia, turmeric (for the leaves) and a moringa tree (which for some reason just died). Point is, anyone can grow stuff: my window box is 0.3Wx1.5Lx0.25D (about 100L of soil). You should easily get 10kg of veg per square meter on that sort of scale.

Yep, you can get away with different grades of water for different things. You need it very clean for drinking, somewhat less clean for showering and washing-up, and you can use greywater for your plants. For drinking water I have a Sawyer Point Zero Two filter - which is essentially the same thing as a LifeStraw except for somewhat larger volumes of water. It works well, but it’s slow and needs frequent cleaning. Hence my intention to get a standard reverse-osmosis type.

No, I think it was just invented by the same guy. It’s a fancy name for a self-cleaning screen. The idea is to make the water flow over a curved screen so that debris washes off instead of staying stuck on the top. Particle-free water drops through into a horizontal collector.

It’s been said that fertilizers and pesticides were repurposed from explosives and chemical-warfare stockpiles. There are definite similarities, and the Haber-Bosch process specifically was a solution in search of a problem: market gardeners did just fine with a cartload of manure now and then. I wonder if one of the reasons chemical fertilizers became necessary is that people stopped using horses for transport :slight_smile:

As for ‘industrially organised’, they certainly were, although there were notable differences between the US (where the railways were 100% private) and the UK (where they were operated by the state). By most accounts, American railway operators were haphazard, inefficient, profiteering assholes. The UK operators were just a bit inefficient: the Beeching report is interesting for its clarity and the figures, which suggest that although rural branch lines were operating at a loss (subsidized by taxes and more profitable routes) the rail system as a whole was pretty cheap to run, and the quality-of-life payback for subsidy was incredible. This is a real-life example of a state-operated natural monopoly working far better than the privatized version, which most economists still argue simply can’t happen. The UK government (unintentionally) proved the point by privatising the railways, whereupon they transitioned to US-level uselessness.

OK, let’s just ignore that sad fact at the end and talk about watering plants in Taiwan. :slight_smile:

My building has one of those metal collection tanks on the roof. Is that OK for watering plants? I’ve never really looked into how water gets in there, or how clean it really is, but I’d venture to say that it rains enough in Taipei for all the neighbors to have a hobby garden.

Taiwan is crowded, but population density provides opportunity in some cases.

Cool. Following… I’ll think about what you said. I worry about mold + dust with home agriculture…

It’s probably OK, but you need to check what it’s currently being used for. It might be the header tank for the entire building’s domestic water supply - a common arrangement here is that water is pumped up from street level to a rooftop tank and then gravity-fed (occasionally pumped) back down to the individual apartments. If you start tapping water off it the water company might take a dim view, even if it’s not a lot.

Absolutely. My plants outdoors on my ‘farm’ are 100% rain-fed. Even the ones on the roof in boxes don’t really need irrigation, at least not all the time. I just like to pamper them because they grow faster, and because I can.

If you want to set up a rainwater tank, I suggest the same collection area as your planted area will be fine, as long as the plants themselves are also in an open area (ie., getting rained on). At the moment I’m using PE pipe with holes punched in it to spray water everywhere, but I’m going to replace that with drip tape (which I also use on the farm). It’s much easier to set up and more controllable.

The trick is to make sure your planting boxes are big and deep, full of a lot of organic trash like tree branches, and mulched with leaves/straw if possible. That way they’ll retain plenty of water between rain showers.

Hi guys, i read through the thread and got very interested, anyone still on the subject in taiwan? I went to a few organic farmer’s market in taipei, mostly a joke, I’d love to get like minded people together and organized,

@finley, you mentioned you know a few organic growers in taiwan?

epicurious: In Taiwan, I know a bunch of guys in who are growing organically for essential oils (which is somewhat easier than veg farming). The others I mentioned are in the UK or the Philippines.

Yes, the farmer’s markets are a bit disappointing - and overpriced!

What do you mean by ‘get organised’? Sounds interesting.