# Ah-Bian didn't pocket a single cent **URL:** \ **Category:** Taiwan Politics\ **Created:** [November 26, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229 "2008-11-26T02:36:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![planet2wheels](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/90ced4/32.png) [@planet2wheels](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/planet2wheels)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/1 "2008-11-26T02:36:41Z")
How does Criminal Psychology explain Ah-bian’s rantings that he didn’t pocket a cent? Under interrogation, the most resilient liars are those who deny reality & convince themselves of their innocence, in spite of the irrefutability of their crime. It is this type of criminal who can even fool the lie detector, since they experience no guilt or discomfort when perpetrating a lie. How many forumosans think Ah-bian honestly believes himself to be innocent, yet at the same time being seriously guilty of corruption? (as opposed to consciously lying to save his skin) ---
**Author:** ![anon38216271](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@anon38216271](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/anon38216271)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/2 "2008-11-26T02:42:20Z")
AC Dropout will respond in 5… ---
**Author:** ![TaipeiDawg](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/eb9ed0/32.png) [@TaipeiDawg](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/TaipeiDawg)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/3 "2008-11-26T02:45:11Z")
I think govt-attache IS AC\_dropout posting under a different screen name… Same content… ---
**Author:** ![twocs](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/82dd89/32.png) [@twocs](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/twocs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/4 "2008-11-26T06:52:57Z")
Damned if you say you did and damned if you say you didn’t. If Chen was being quiet all this time, then we’d be saying he’s guilty because his silence gives him away. ---
**Author:** ![TheGingerMan](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@TheGingerMan](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/TheGingerMan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 10:23am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/5 "2008-11-26T10:23:56Z")
Some folks are better adapted to handling cognitive dissonance. ---
**Author:** ![ac\_dropout](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/7c8e57/32.png) [@ac\_dropout](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ac_dropout)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/6 "2008-11-26T13:43:29Z")
I think Prisoner 2630 defense has been centered around the belief that he was unaware that is inner circle of aides and family were pocketing money on his behalf. If he truly believed himself to be innocent, he would have had he wife’s trial finished 2 years ago. Let alone let it drag out for 2 years, hiding in the hosipital and going on a liquid diets. A defense he seems now to be utilizing as well. ---
**Author:** ![ludahai](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/7bcc69/32.png) [@ludahai](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ludahai)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/7 "2008-11-28T14:41:44Z")
Unfortunately, all we have now is a prosecutor playing “trial by press leak” and a judicary system who is holding a man without charge, something that would not be allowed in most Western countries. ---
**Author:** ![ac\_dropout](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/7c8e57/32.png) [@ac\_dropout](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ac_dropout)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/8 "2008-11-28T20:57:28Z")
Which one? USA is allow to torture people held without charge. ---
**Author:** ![ludahai](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/7bcc69/32.png) [@ludahai](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ludahai)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/9 "2008-11-28T22:46:31Z")
> [@ac\_dropout](#): > > Which one? USA is allow to torture people held without charge. Where inside the USA are people being held and tortured without charge? ---
**Author:** ![ac\_dropout](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/7c8e57/32.png) [@ac\_dropout](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ac_dropout)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/10 "2008-11-29T04:18:30Z")
Guantánamo is US territory. ---
**Author:** ![ludahai](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/7bcc69/32.png) [@ludahai](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ludahai)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/11 "2008-11-29T06:52:57Z")
> [@ac\_dropout](#): > > Guantánamo is US territory. No, it isn’t. It is part of Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![plasmatron](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@plasmatron](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/plasmatron)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 8:13am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/12 "2008-11-29T08:13:58Z")
> [@ludahai](#): > > [quote=“ac\_dropout”]Guantánamo is US territory. No, it isn’t. It is part of Cuba.[/quote] Guantánamo bay is geographically a part of Cuba, but it’s still a US territory… according to the US government anyway… [quote]The United States assumed territorial control over Guantánamo Bay under the 1903 Cuban-American Treaty, which granted the United States a perpetual lease of the area. [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo\_Bay,\_Cuba](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay,_Cuba)[/quote] [quote]While on the one hand the United States recognizes the continuance of the ultimate sovereignty of the Republic of Cuba over the above described areas of land and water, on the other hand the Republic of Cuba consents that during the period of the occupation by the United States of said areas under the terms of this agreement the United States shall exercise complete jurisdiction and control over and within said areas. [avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/dip\_cuba002.asp](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/dip_cuba002.asp)[/quote] [quote]United States territory is any extent of region under the jurisdiction of the federal government of the United States. [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_territory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_territory)[/quote] ---
**Author:** ![ludahai](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/7bcc69/32.png) [@ludahai](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ludahai)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/13 "2008-11-30T01:18:10Z")
> [@plasmatron](#): > > Guantánamo bay is geographically a part of Cuba, but it’s still a US territory… according to the US government anyway… The U.S. pays annual rent for the territory - never mind that the checks aren’t cashed. Technically, they are Cuban territory and NOT part of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![lbksig](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/cab0a1/32.png) [@lbksig](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/lbksig)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/14 "2008-11-30T03:36:50Z")
[quote=“ludahai”][quote=“plasmatron”] Guantánamo bay is geographically a part of Cuba, but it’s still a US territory… according to the US government anyway… [/quote] The U.S. pays annual rent for the territory - never mind that the checks aren’t cashed. Technically, they are Cuban territory and NOT part of the United States.[/quote] No, you’re wrong. It is a military base of the United States of America. Military bases, as Plasmatron noted, are federal territory. All federal territories are considered US sovereign soil, whether it was Subic bay, the Panama Canal or Guantánamo bay. The US controls it, the US pays rent on it (whether or not its cashed doesn’t matter), and the [Cuban-American treaty of 1903 backs up that claim.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-American_Treaty) Now back to the topic at hand… ---
**Author:** ![ludahai](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/7bcc69/32.png) [@ludahai](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ludahai)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 8:45am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/15 "2008-11-30T08:45:54Z")
[quote=“lbksig”][quote=“ludahai”][quote=“plasmatron”] Guantánamo bay is geographically a part of Cuba, but it’s still a US territory… according to the US government anyway… [/quote] The U.S. pays annual rent for the territory - never mind that the checks aren’t cashed. Technically, they are Cuban territory and NOT part of the United States.[/quote] No, you’re wrong. It is a military base of the United States of America. Military bases, as Plasmatron noted, are federal territory. All federal territories are considered US sovereign soil, whether it was Subic bay, the Panama Canal or Guantánamo bay. The US controls it, the US pays rent on it (whether or not its cashed doesn’t matter), and the [Cuban-American treaty of 1903 backs up that claim.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-American_Treaty) Now back to the topic at hand…[/quote] According to that treaty, while that area is under the JURISDICTION of the UNited States, the territory itself is the SOVEREIGN territory of Cuba. So, while the US military controls the area, the area itself is part of Cuba. It is in the treaty. Article III states: > [@](#): > > While on the one hand the United States recognizes the continuance of the ultimate sovereignty of the Republic of Cuba over the above described areas of land and water, on the other hand the Republic of Cuba consents that during the period of the occupation by the United States of said areas under the terms of this agreement the United States shall exercise complete jurisdiction and control over and within said areas with the right to acquire (under conditions to be hereafter agreed upon by the two Governments) for the public purposes of the United States any land or other property therein by purchase or by exercise of eminent domain with full compensation to the owners thereof. ---
**Author:** ![plasmatron](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@plasmatron](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/plasmatron)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 9:46am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/16 "2008-11-30T09:46:38Z")
> [@ludahai](#): > > According to that treaty, while that area is under the JURISDICTION of the UNited States, the territory itself is the SOVEREIGN territory of Cuba. So, while the US military controls the area, the area itself is part of Cuba. It is in the treaty. ludahai, I can’t be sure if your inability to comprehend the fairly simple geo-political concept of “a United States territory” is deliberately contrived or just legitimate simple mindedness on your part, but either way I suggest you reread the Wiki or US State Department website entries regarding what constitutes a United States territory… I’m sure you’ll get it eventually if you pay attention… The United States Federal Government claims Guantanamo Bay, despite it’s Cuban geographic location and sovereignty, as a United States territory… ---
**Author:** ![ludahai](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/7bcc69/32.png) [@ludahai](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ludahai)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 11:28am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/17 "2008-11-30T11:28:34Z")
> [@plasmatron](#): > > [quote=“ludahai”]According to that treaty, while that area is under the JURISDICTION of the UNited States, the territory itself is the SOVEREIGN territory of Cuba. So, while the US military controls the area, the area itself is part of Cuba. It is in the treaty. ludahai, I can’t be sure if your inability to comprehend the fairly simple geo-political concept of “a United States territory” is deliberately contrived or just legitimate simple mindedness on your part, but either way I suggest you reread the Wiki or US State Department website entries regarding what constitutes a United States territory… I’m sure you’ll get it eventually if you pay attention… The United States Federal Government claims Guantanamo Bay, despite it’s Cuban geographic location and sovereignty, as a United States territory…[/quote] It is NOt soveriegn territory of the United States of America. It is NOT Puerto Rico, Guam, or American Samoa. It is a territory ADMINISTERED by the United States, but it is not under the sovereign control of the United States. It is a sovereign territory of Cuba and thus NOT a part of the United States. Read the treaty! ---
**Author:** ![mr\_boogie](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@mr\_boogie](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/mr_boogie)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 11:45am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/18 "2008-11-30T11:45:51Z")
Don’t you think the Americans really enjoy making things complicated? Look at what they did to Taiwan… ---
**Author:** ![lbksig](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/cab0a1/32.png) [@lbksig](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/lbksig)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/19 "2008-11-30T13:27:48Z")
[quote=“ludahai”] It is NOt soveriegn territory of the United States of America. It is NOT Puerto Rico, Guam, or American Samoa. It is a territory ADMINISTERED by the United States, but it is not under the sovereign control of the United States. It is a sovereign territory of Cuba and thus NOT a part of the United States. Read the treaty![/quote] The US government recognizes that any territory controlled and administered by the US as federal territory. To address your “read the treaty” comment, you should in fact read the [Treaty of Paris 1898](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1898)). > [@Treaty of Paris](#): > > Specifically, Spain relinquished all claim of sovereignty over - and title to - Cuba. Upon Cuba’s evacuation by Spain, it was to be occupied by the United States, and the United States would assume and discharge any obligations that under international law could result from the fact of its occupation. Now it was in the [Platt Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platt_Amendment) that set the basis for how the US and Cuba were to interact (from a US perspective). That’s where the amendment ceded Guantánamo bay as a coal refueling station and a naval base. Now the [Cuban American Treaty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-American_Treaty), as you pointed out, does say that Cuba reserves the sovereignty over the land but US gets “absolute jurisdiction and control over the area”. The act also revoked some of the other features of the Platt Amendment. The control of Guantánamo bay was further ratified, and clarified, in the [Treaty of Relations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Relations) in 1934 between the US and the Republic of Cuba. Now comes the fun part. You pointed out Article III of the 1903 treaty as the crux of your case. The 1934 Treaty of Relations [text](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/dip_cuba001.asp) is more pertinent. I’ll quote article II below: > [@Article II](#): > > All the acts effected in Cuba by the United States of America during its military occupation of the island, up to May 20,1902, the date on which the Republic of Cuba was established, have been ratified and held as valid; and all the rights legally acquired by virtue of those acts shall be maintained and protected. The Treaty of Paris was in 1898, in which Spain signed over control and sovereignty to the US of all of Cuba. The 1934 act held that all treaties before 1902 were valid. The Treaty of Paris was signed in 1899, so the US controls, in perpetuity, Guantánamo bay Cuba. The Republic of Cuba never held sovereignty over Guantánamo bay since the Spanish transferred sovereignty to the US as spoils of war. You pointed out the other territories that the US gained, but seemed to purposefully overlook Cuba. The Republic of Cuba couldn’t negotiate sovereignty they never actually had. Now, on a different note, I’ll pose a question to you. If the detention center at Guantánamo bay Cuba is not considered part and parcel of US soil, then why were the detainees there granted the right to challenge their detainment in front of the [US Supreme Court](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/06/12/a-third-rebuke-to-bush-on-guantnamo-bay.html). The US courts have determined that detainees there are to be granted the same rights as if it was anywhere else on US soil. [quote=“mr\_boogie”]Don’t you think the Americans really enjoy making things complicated? Look at what they did to Taiwan…[/quote] Yep, damn Americans. Sending the Seventh Fleet to stop the invasion of Taiwan by the PRC in the [First Taiwan Straights Crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis) and the [Second Taiwan Straights Crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis). ---
**Author:** ![mr\_boogie](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@mr\_boogie](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/mr_boogie)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229/20 "2008-11-30T13:40:00Z")
Well, they could have simply put a country name in the San Francisco Treaty, which legally has more importance than sending the 7th fleet… by not doing that, they put the whole Formosa and the Pescadores in this stupid situation, which is exacerbated by the fact that the ROC still holds control to Jinmen and Matsu, that are outside the scope of the San Francisco Treaty. [Next page](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/ah-bian-didnt-pocket-a-single-cent/48229.md?page=2)