America-Hating Conservatives: Why Drag God into It?

Politics US Politics
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I got to wondering why it is that so many conservatives are absolutely sure that America is so loathesome, such an abomination, that God is unleashing disasters just to prove a point. Now, I’m an American. I love my country, so I don’t understand why conservative figures there spend so much time claiming that America “deserves” natural disasters as part of some sort of Sodom-and-Gomorrah style smackdown. There’s plenty of misery out there in the world, but most of it can be attributed to bad luck and relatively easy to trace failures to safeguard against likely problems. There are horrible famines in Somalia and other countries, but that has a lot more to do with weather, soil, available water sources, and overpopulation, not some sort of odious personal or societal practices of a sort that would make somebody stick out.

First, we have Michele Bachmann and Glenn Beck trying to cite to God’s wrath: huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/2 … 40209.html

Pat Robertson has his own take on the selective nature of God’s attention, going back many years, ranging across the Asian tsunami, Katrina, and other disasters: mediamatters.org/research/200505020002

[quote]Responding to a question from ABC host George Stephanopoulos about why a God “so involved in our daily life” would allow a tsunami to kill hundreds of thousands of people, Rev. Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Coalition of America, replied: “I don’t think He reverses the laws of nature.” That statement, on the May 1 edition of ABC’s This Week with George Stephanopoulos, conflicts with other meteorological comments by Robertson, who has repeatedly linked natural disasters to the will of God.

After Orlando, Florida, city officials voted in 1998 to fly rainbow flags from city lampposts during the annual Gay Days event at Disney World, Robertson issued the city a warning: “I don’t think I’d be waving those flags in God’s face if I were you. … [A] condition like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It’ll bring about terrorist bombs, it’ll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor.”[/quote]

And, regarding the mild earthquake this year, Robertson also felt that there was a serious issue at heart: http://www.borowitzreport.com/2011/08/24/pat-robertson-blames-mild-earthquake-on-people-who-seem-kind-of-gay/

[quote]“All across the Eastern seaboard, there are men who get manicures, wear designer eyewear and know about thread counts,” Rev. Robertson. “God finds this somewhat gay-like behavior confusing, and He responded by getting mildly peeved.”

The televangelist warned that if Americans persist in their “seemingly sort-of-gay behavior,” the country should brace itself for additional ambiguous acts of retaliation from the Almighty.

“God will strike back at people who act sort of gay with all kinds of mild responses,” he said. “If you keep getting pedicures and facials, you can expect two to three inches of rain and some really hot humid days in your future.”[/quote]

If nothing else, it’s not like Nazi Germany, despite its horrible atrocities, was somehow hit by anything other than a series of manmade disasters in the form of bombs, tanks and other Allied ass-kicking – to a large extent the Nazi government mostly tossed Christianity out, trying to create its own quasi-pagan rituals while keeping a firm grip on all the local churches. So, if Bachmann, Beck, Robertson, and other conservatives are to be believed, our world has a God who intervenes to routinely hit America with punishments … but who completely let Nazi Germany slide. I don’t know who should be offended more by this current conservative line, Americans or God.

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Because they’re insane.

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I don’t usually agree with Chris’ mad “anything that’s not democrat is looneytunes downright evil” schtick, but in this case… these really are the outer fringes, aren’t they? I’d prefer to hear what republicans the likes of Tigerman have to say.

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Old story.[quote=“Washington Post”]On Thursday, April 4, 1968, Martin Luther King Jr. had retreated to room 306 of the Lorraine Motel, worrying about a sanitation strike in Memphis and working on his sermon for Sunday.

Its title: “Why America May Go to Hell.” For King, whose focus had shifted from civil rights to antiwar agitation and populist economics, the Dream was turning dark.[/quote]Men who dream of a better tomorrow often grow disillusioned.
And its very, very much a part of the prophetic tradition to condemn one’s own.

Sorry to disrupt the simple yarn you were spinning.

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Soooo, this is just something you’ve just noticed recently? :laughing: I’m waiting for your next “Hey! The sky is blue” thread.

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Actually it seems God hates conservative states like Virginia and North Carolina more; and with the exception of Communist, hippie Vermont, seems to have missed the liberal haven’s of NYC and DC. :ponder:

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How true. At one point in time I was very interested in the Middle Ages, particularly the Levantine Crusades. Whenever the Christians reached a setback, e.g., loss of territory, defeat in battle, capture of Christians, etc., the popular and clerical reaction was to blame their own lack of piety, not Christian generals, nor even Muslim generals. There were exceptions, where particular blunders were popularly derided, but for the most part Christians perceived defeat as punishment from God. At the same time, victories were celebrated as God’s blessings. This belief is consistent with numerous Biblical accounts of God meting out rewards and punishment for proper worship or the lack thereof.

I think Beck, Bachmann, and Robertson are idiots, but their beliefs are at not outlandish within the Christian tradition.

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And how endemic that is on the sports fields of today’s proud Christian nations!

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It is more convenient for them to blame natural disasters on “sinners” than to admit that there might be something to this whole global warming thing. (I know the quake had nothing to do with GW, but the other ones).

I think it is something people have pretty much done since the beginning of time, use religion to explain things they can’t understand, and then capitalize on it. Never let a good disaster go to waste, right?

Dan Carlin, who does a great Political podcast (and an even greater history one) at Dancarlin.com was just talking about remembering a conversation he had with a German teacher of his. Basically he said that if fascism comes to the U.S. it won’t be with a little funny mustache, it will be wholly American, it will look something like John Wayne. Now, I’m not saying the Bachmanns and Bushes and Perrys and Robertsons and Becks of the world are Hitler, but what I am saying is that they are appealing to what makes Americans tick, the same way people have always appealed to things that made their population tick.

I love how in the same speech they will bring up 9/11 and then two sentences later criticize the “liberal northeast elite”. It’s like, where did the terrorists attack? Cause it sure as shit wasn’t Iowa.

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[quote=“mofangongren”]
If nothing else, it’s not like Nazi Germany, despite its horrible atrocities, was somehow hit by anything other than a series of manmade disasters in the form of bombs, tanks and other Allied ass-kicking – to a large extent the Nazi government mostly tossed Christianity out, trying to create its own quasi-pagan rituals while keeping a firm grip on all the local churches. So, if Bachmann, Beck, Robertson, and other conservatives are to be believed, our world has a God who intervenes to routinely hit America with punishments … but who completely let Nazi Germany slide. I don’t know who should be offended more by this current conservative line, Americans or God.[/quote]

Help me understand your logic here. The world mobilising itself against and defeating the Nazi’s could not be counted as a “wake up call”? My implication here, is that assuming there is a God, God can and does work by means other than hurricanes.

(That said, this is a slippery slope into the classical century long debate of if God intervenes to prevent bad stuff, why does he not always intervene, aka why does God allow evil.)

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I don’t really see this as any kind of slippery slope issue. This issue is just yet another tired old example of making judgements of a whole segment of a population based on the extreme behaviour of a few. Seriously where is Glenn Beck today? He’s gone from CNN and he’s gone from FOX. His audience base is declining and is restricted to a small element of the population. Bachmann is unlikely to win the primaries and if she keeps spouting crazy shit, her chances of winning are going to be even more remote. As for Robertson, who even listens to this guy any more.

If you want to know the real irony of this topic, it’s that it is likely that people on the left pay more rapt attention to what these idiots have to say than those on the mainstream right. Judging by the OP’s posting history he may spend as much or more time listening to rightwing media as any Republican.

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What I don’t get, though, is the line of their thinking. Michele Bachmann is a merely one woman and she might not win the GOP presidential nomination, but she’s also not in the back of the pack with Huntsman. She’s represented her congressional district for the past 4 years (indicating some degree of popularity within her state) and risen up to national-level politics to the point where she’s become a household name and gets rather massive media coverage. So we’re not talking about a “fringe” figure in any sense – she’s legitimately part of the GOP mainstream.

And it seems that nobody in the GOP is saying any permutations of:

  1. i love America – I think it’s nuts that anybody would say God would kill random Americans to support any broader point.
  2. I love America – in the huge world out there, I cannot imagine God taking the time out to specially punish the United States, land of the free! Why us and not, say, Iran!?!
  3. I love God, I love America – I just don’t think a loving God along the lines of what I know from the teachings of Jesus Christ would use natural phenomena to kill people just to make a point.

So, how is it that national-level conservatives with a wide pulpit and with very wide support get a free ride on their America bashing. Does America really deserve to be smashed hard as “punishment” or for a “message” from God? How much does the average conservative (out of the millions who support Bachmann’s run) wish to see America’s downfall? For a party that goes to such lengths in pretending to be “more patriotic” and “more pro-America”, it is interesting to see how fast GOPpers are to see the United States as nothing more than a Sodom & Gommorah worthy of vengeful Godly wrath.

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Dog bites man
vs.
Man bites dog.

It’s not that nobody is the GOP is saying anything of the sort, only that the other candidates know denouncing such idiocy only makes them look like scolds (bad) and keeps the conversation on a ridiculous topic (more bad).

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I suppose Bachmann and her supporters will have to choose sides. Are they going to be on “God’s side” on this or on America’s side? If they choose “God’s side”, does that mean that they’ll start to act on their impulse – if God doesn’t destroy America fast enough, will these guys consider it “fair game” to do whatever it takes to bring America down?

It’s interesting how fast the United States’ Taliban in the GOP appear to be championing the idea that America deserves a God-favored smackdown. As we come up on the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks, it’s the fundamentalist GOPpers who are hungering for Americans to die in order to validate their religious beliefs and to advance their political cause. Back in 2001, it was al Qaeda. In 2011, it’s the GOP.

Jaboney, I think you’re right that the rest of the GOP is probably too cowed by personal image-control and internal-party “political correctness” to denounce Bachmann’s (and Beck’s and Robertson’s and everybody else’s) claims of divine intervention for the anti-American garbage that it is.

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:loco:

Oook, I think this post is indication that you’re pretty much as loony as Beck is. I still maintain that you and Chris may make up FOX new’s largest demographic.

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In fact, they are not. They are the front runners of the Republican party’s nomination for President of the United States.

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[quote=“pqkdzrwt”][quote=“mofangongren”]
If nothing else, it’s not like Nazi Germany, despite its horrible atrocities, was somehow hit by anything other than a series of manmade disasters in the form of bombs, tanks and other Allied ass-kicking – to a large extent the Nazi government mostly tossed Christianity out, trying to create its own quasi-pagan rituals while keeping a firm grip on all the local churches. So, if Bachmann, Beck, Robertson, and other conservatives are to be believed, our world has a God who intervenes to routinely hit America with punishments … but who completely let Nazi Germany slide. I don’t know who should be offended more by this current conservative line, Americans or God.[/quote]

Help me understand your logic here. The world mobilising itself against and defeating the Nazi’s could not be counted as a “wake up call”? My implication here, is that assuming there is a God, God can and does work by means other than hurricanes.

(That said, this is a slippery slope into the classical century long debate of if God intervenes to prevent bad stuff, why does he not always intervene, aka why does God allow evil.)[/quote]

Bit off topic:
I remember reading somewhere that there was this idea that the Nazis had done all those awful things precisely to elicit a response from GOd, focusing particularly on his Chosen children.

I rather agree with Mofangongren. I put these punishing ideas along with the “theology of prosperity” and all that jazz. People trying to fit God in a bottle, attach him to a cart. People making others believe God is a terrorist and a blackmailer. People creating an atmosphere of fear to take advantage of others who have good intentions but are not as sharp. The eternal wolves/sheep paradox. Not just a GOP thinghie.

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Gman, I’m on America’s side. If Bachmann and her fellow mainstream GOP supporters wish to see America’s downfall, then I stand against them. It’s as simple as that. I realize that you might well think it is worthy of a :loco: that I dare to disagree with Bachmann, but I do.

pqkdzrwt: Did my grandfather’s generation think that they were part of a grand Godly design to defeat the Nazis? Hard to say what was in the minds of millions of men, but most of the Allies were in WWII because their country had been attacked. We rallied around “Remember Pearl Harbor” as a slogan, not “God wants us to smack down those heathens”. And in the end, it was cold, hard economics that destroyed the Axis. At the rate at which the Japanese manufactured ships, there was basically no way for them to keep thousands of miles of Pacific islets defended, move oil up from what today is Indonesia, or even refine it into gasoline. With the Germans facing a war on two fronts against America’s massive untouchable manufacturing power and the Soviet Union’s willingness to throw millions of men into the Eastern Front grinder, they could build plywood rocket fighters (Natter, He-162), Me-262s, V-1 and V-2s until the cows came home, and they’d still lose. I don’t think it was “God” taking sides in war. Not sure that God takes sides in war. For that matter, I can’t imagine anything more “un-Christian” in terms of the actual words of the New Testament than killing people.

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Icon, perhaps Bachmann is trying to test if there is a God. If she’s right, then God will find a way to make her president.

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A. The idea that mainstream GOP members want to see America’s downfall is batshit crazy.
B. My :loco: was specifically aimed at this;

This is batshit crazy on a scale that would make Glenn Beck proud.

America is dead or at least America the idea is dead, has been for awhile. As for the downfall of the United States, I’m afraid that’s already baked in the cake and it’s not because of God or Godzilla but because its citizens both Democratic and Republican.