"an historic occasion" - Is this correct?

[quote=“Dangermouse”]A historic…not An historic.

How can anyone get their mouth to say an infront of a vocalised “h?” It’s just not right![/quote]

To my ear, and eye, it’s just the opposite. You have to really stress the “a” and widen your mouth to say “a historic” vocalizing the “h.”

“An historic” flows: “A historic” is clumsy and plodding.

Look the rule of grammar is clearly stated at the start of this thread. The question is not whether it is correct to use ‘an’ or ‘a’ infront of an H(aitch) sound but rather whether one is in fact pronouncing one’s H(aitches) correctly in the first place.

The upper crust and working class english have a tendency to drop their H(aithces) and thus ‘an’ would be correct. Middle class Brits have been taught to pronounce theirs and thus would use ‘a’.

Hotel is another one that causes some difficulty. Written correctly it should be An Historical occasion and An Hotel but in spoken language it just depends upon your dialect.

Interestingly where you are from doesn’t really matter. News readers and those reading speeched (IMHO) tend to read what is put in front of them and are not affecting their speech…they simply don’t stop and think about it…fire the teletype girl!

Sweet jesus, so An He road should be A-He road if we follow this rule? cold joke…
English is only my third language, but “A historic(al)” even sounds simply better because the “h” is pronounced clearly… it is implemented in my brain like that for damn 25 years, so do not start confusing me pe-lease…

Shudder.[/quote]

Really, one can’t expect the lower classes to appreciate the virtues of proper diction, can one? :laughing:

Actually, this is one of those things that I can accept either way - it doesn’t bug me like some other parts of speech can do. See my example of the over-use of ‘one’, above.

Oh and Edgar Allen - prescriptive grammar has its uses, but you have to look at what people actually use. The very fact that a sizeable minority of people use the “an historic” (voiced ‘h’) version should inform you that these ‘rules’ are not telling the full story. So I say :raspberry: to your rules. :smiley:

[quote=“Edgar Allen”]Look the rule of grammar is clearly stated at the start of this thread. The question is not whether it is correct to use ‘an’ or ‘a’ infront of an H(aitch) sound but rather whether one is in fact pronouncing one’s H(aitches) correctly in the first place.

The upper crust and working class English have a tendency to drop their H(aithces) and thus ‘an’ would be correct. Middle class Brits have been taught to pronounce theirs and thus would use ‘a’.

Hotel is another one that causes some difficulty. Written correctly it should be An Historical occasion and An Hotel but in spoken language it just depends upon your dialect.

Interestingly where you are from doesn’t really matter. News readers and those reading speeched (IMHO) tend to read what is put in front of them and are not affecting their speech…they simply don’t stop and think about it…fire the teletype girl![/quote]

Do you people really think usage books are correct on every matter, or that their word is final? I have studied many a grammar and usage book and there are many, many, many issues that are not decided one way or the other. One thing that most book agrees on, however, is that an educated writer, in particular one who has thought clearly about what he is doing, has the right to decide certain matters based on individual preference. My preference is for “an historic.” I also use a comma before and in a list, and use brackets where most people would use a dash.

Appealing to the ultimate authority of usage books is for second language learners and those who are not confident in their writing or speaking.

[quote=“Muzha Man”]Do you people really think usage books are correct on every matter, or that their word is final? I have studied many a grammar and usage book and there are many, many, many issues that are not decided one way or the other. One thing that most book agrees on, however, is that an educated writer, in particular one who has thought clearly about what he is doing, has the right to decide certain matters based on individual preference. My preference is for “an historic.” I also use a comma after the third item in a list, and use brackets where most people would use a dash.

Appealing to the ultimate authority of usage books is for second language learners and those who are not confident in their writing or speaking.[/quote]

:bravo: Amen to that, all of it. Although perhaps a little harsh in that last sentence… :laughing:

Shudder.[/quote]

Really, one can’t expect the lower classes to appreciate the virtues of proper diction, can one? :laughing:[/quote]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ … 519863.stm

bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A2833337

nowpublic.com/bbc_news_south … link_opens

BUT. . .

thesun.co.uk/article/0,2004041477,00.html

and

whitehouse.gov/news/releases … 007-8.html

Who you gonna side with now?

[quote=“Taffy”][quote=“Muzha Man”]Do you people really think usage books are correct on every matter, or that their word is final? I have studied many a grammar and usage book and there are many, many, many issues that are not decided one way or the other. One thing that most book agrees on, however, is that an educated writer, in particular one who has thought clearly about what he is doing, has the right to decide certain matters based on individual preference. My preference is for “an historic.” I also use a comma after the third item in a list, and use brackets where most people would use a dash.

Appealing to the ultimate authority of usage books is for second language learners and those who are not confident in their writing or speaking.[/quote]

:bravo: Amen to that, all of it. Although perhaps a little harsh in that last sentence… :laughing:[/quote]

Okay, then, appealing to the ultimate authority of usage books is for those who haven’t read enough usage books. :wink:

That settles it: “a historic” is correct!!

Shudder.[/quote]

Really, one can’t expect the lower classes to appreciate the virtues of proper diction, can one? :laughing:[/quote]

news.BBC.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ … 519863.stm

BBC.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A2833337

nowpublic.com/bbc_news_south … link_opens

BUT. . .

thesun.co.uk/article/0,2004041477,00.html

and

Who you gonna side with now?[/quote]

Actually, I was just joking with Dangermouse. But since you ask…

There is no definitive answer on this question. There is preference and habit, and that is all.

Both are acceptable to my mind, esp. in the written form. With the spoken word, “a” sounds more natural to my bastardized colonial ears.

[quote=“Chris”]So far the results seem surprising to me.

I say “a historic”. The reasoning is simple:.[/quote]

Yeah, you’re uneducated :smiley: :smiley: