I’m sorry Jotham but with this you reveal ignorence of life on this island. If the people of Taiwan obeyed the gov this would be a clean, well-ordered, animal friendly place to live. But the fact is no one listens to the gov unless forced to do so. Talk to officials some time and here what they have to say. As an example, go ask the police or water department why they can’t stop people bbquing and swimming in the rivers that feed into our water supply? They sure would like to. But they can’t. Why?
I found a funny article in the Economist yesterday from the 80s that was talking about how 25% of the economy in Taiwan at the time was underground. It was the biggest underground economy in the world. Disrespect for authority is built into the genetic structure of the people here. Your confusing people giving authority face with actually giving a shit about what they say.
Deference on the surface only. I have one woman in my office who refuses point blank to refer to the greaseball or any other officials as simply “Chen” or whatever upon second mention. It always has to be “President Chen Shui-bian,” “Foreign Minister James Huang” or whatever. She point blank refuses to do it any other way, despite being told by her boss, etc., because “it would be disrespectful.”
I bet she tosses litter and parks without any thought for others, though.
Of course people rebel against undue authority and interference in their daily lives. We’ve discovered that long ago in the West. That’s a universal human trait “built into our genetic structure” whereever you go — notably in communist societies.
Moreover, you’re focusing on environmentalism — a political issue — and political parties and figures. What I mean is a societal arrangement and mindset that enables and encourages successful people and big businesses, at least in some sectors, to make ties, wheel and deal, cooperate, and otherwise ingratiate themselves with lower-level government officials in order to achieve success (or more success) personally or in the market — and this because of the way the system is set up; not because of the preferences of the people.
I’d like to jump in here with a few highly subjective opinions of my own! I agree that it’s OK to attempt to define some cultural characteristics of ethnic groups without waranting being called a racist. With the Taiwanese, it’s fair to say that many of them are lacking in what we, as westerners, would call a fully developed personality. That is, they seem to have simplistic emotions, seem only to like to go shopping, sleep and watch TV, and don’t seem to have experienced anything like the range of activities, alternate social realities, or emotions that we have. But at the risk of sounding arrogant, most societies are composed of many mundane, mediocre and boring people. When I think of Canada, I know loads of people who are just dull dull dull, and lead lives that, to me, seem petty, bitchy and unexciting. One of the things I like about being in Taiwan is that I can’t understand what most people are talking about in public places, so I’m not forced to listen to irritatingly banal comments, and constant whining and criticising that seem so prevalent in Canada. Whining and talking too much about oneself are Canadian ways of being medicore;The dull Taiwanese you are talking about are just being dull in an Asian way, introverted and conformist.
But there lots of dull people everywhere! So then, where are the really cool Taiwanese? Well, in my experience, many of them are nearer the top of the social pyramid, higher than ESL teachers normally go!
Mucha Man Quote: “But the fact is no one listens to the gov unless forced to do so.”
I guess this is one of the most positive things I find true about Taiwan. The government should do for the people only those things that the people can not do for themselves. (paraphrase from Thomas Jefferson)
You have to remember that this government is only about 25 years old. Look at any other democracy 25 years into it and I think you will see some distinct similarities. America has forgotten this principle and follow blindly those that are suppossed to be our leaders. Question authority. Alway. Taiwan is off to a good start. I didn’t say they are doing a great job, but in the evolution of democracy - it ain’t bad.
[quote=“BigJohn”]I’d like to jump in here with a few highly subjective opinions of my own! I agree that it’s OK to attempt to define some cultural characteristics of ethnic groups without waranting being called a racist. With the Taiwanese, it’s fair to say that many of them are lacking in what we, as westerners, would call a fully developed personality. That is, they seem to have simplistic emotions, seem only to like to go shopping, sleep and watch TV, and don’t seem to have experienced anything like the range of activities, alternate social realities, or emotions that we have. But at the risk of sounding arrogant, most societies are composed of many mundane, mediocre and boring people. When I think of Canada, I know loads of people who are just dull dull dull, and lead lives that, to me, seem petty, bitchy and unexciting. One of the things I like about being in Taiwan is that I can’t understand what most people are talking about in public places, so I’m not forced to listen to irritatingly banal comments, and constant whining and criticising that seem so prevalent in Canada. Whining and talking too much about oneself are Canadian ways of being medicore;The dull Taiwanese you are talking about are just being dull in an Asian way, introverted and conformist.
But there lots of dull people everywhere! So then, where are the really cool Taiwanese? Well, in my experience, many of them are nearer the top of the social pyramid, higher than ESL teachers normally go! [/quote]
Being literally part Taiwanese and part American. And living in both places many years. And having friends from both places. You will be surprised maybe that they are not that different. @“simplistic emotions,seem only to like to go shopping,sleep ,watch tv” Although on the surface that seems very true. IF you dig deeper it isnt.
that’s right- dig deeper and you will see the same variation in intelligence, compassion, motivation etc that you see within your native culture. as an esl teacher in the US for 10 years this has been my experience teaching children k-12 who come from countries all over the world: europeans, asians, africans, middle easterners, south americans, and central americans.
I agree with enigma above. Democracy is, for the most part, quite “successful” in Taiwan, as campaigning is pretty much violence-free and transitions of power take place without bloodshed. It’s funny though–a lot of Taiwanese I talk to think that their “noisy” politicians are a “problem.” I think they don’t fully grasp the idea that democracy means differences of opinion about which people might get kind of vocal. It almost seems to embarrass them that politicians make such “trouble” (to quote words I’ve heard people use about politics). Fistfights in the Legislative Yuan are a disgrace, of course, but differences of opinion really shouldn’t be. Anyway, it still ain’t China, where if the government wants to tear down your house to put up a Wal-Mart, they’ll damn well do it.
I also agree with v above. In my adult classes, I’ve typically had a quiet sweet one, a lazy sour one, a class clown, a shy serious one, an extrovert, a pervert… all the types. But in each case the behavior was somewhat less extreme than it might be in the West. Here, it seems that each of the above character types varies a little less from some kind of central “everyman.”
I’m sorry Jotham but with this you reveal ignorence of life on this island. If the people of Taiwan obeyed the gov this would be a clean, well-ordered, animal friendly place to live. But the fact is no one listens to the gov unless forced to do so. Talk to officials some time and here what they have to say. As an example, go ask the police or water department why they can’t stop people bbquing and swimming in the rivers that feed into our water supply? They sure would like to. But they can’t. Why?
I found a funny article in the Economist yesterday from the 80s that was talking about how 25% of the economy in Taiwan at the time was underground. It was the biggest underground economy in the world. Disrespect for authority is built into the genetic structure of the people here. Your confusing people giving authority face with actually giving a shit about what they say.[/quote]
you are saying their dis-obedience for authority is in their DNA ?
Which gene(s) is that ?
Would that be the Hakka, Fukienese, indigenous or North Chinese. How about the Japnese is obedience in their DNA ?
he doesn’t mean literally. it’s in their cultural DNA. it’s a strong cultural trait that has evolved through history/surroundings. It disappears in later overseas generations when taiwanese move, say, to the US, and their kids become more or less assimilated. so we all have core behaviors (ie introvert/extrovert/optimist/pessimist, etc) based on our genes, but the expression of these behaviors can be modified by our surroundings: by what we see others doing and how others react to us. i changed while in taiwan- i became much more grateful to my mother, i realized through having people fawn over my looks how much i had been effected by thinking i looked ugly in the west- and how liberated from people’s opinions of my appearance that made me, i became more aware of what democracy means, what happens when people have no consideration for the common good- that led me to become more politically active.
so while i think it is useful and interesting to talk about superficial cultural differences, i don’t think it’s useful to think that taiwanese differ from any other people on variations in core traits like laziness or intelligence or being analytical. attitudes, say, about the individual’s role in the family and society are cultural and can change. but i don’t think any setting can change the core of who you are: you’re born that way.
Would that be the Hakka, Fukienese, indigenous or North Chinese. How about the Japnese is obedience in their DNA ?
[/quote]
Speaking of DNA, the Taipei Times is reporting that 85% of both the Hakka and Hoklo Taiwanese have some aboriginal blood in them. taipeitimes.com/News/front/a … 2003388825
I’ve always expected as much, looking at some of the dark complexions and frizzy hair around here.
I’ve also always thought that there was a tendency for people to try to de-emphasize the portions of their ancestry which are not as highly thought of as the other portions. How many of the great, great, great, great grandkids of the current crop of imported SE Asian brides in Taiwan and Japan will be aware that they are not ‘pure Taiwanese’ (whatever that means) or ‘pure Japanese’?
My dad, who’s Mexican, always told us that all his ancestors were of pure Spanish blood. But you know, my abuelita never looked pure Spanish to me. I don’t buy it. The likelihood of generation after generation of males not dipping their wicks in the local wax is just too low, and accurate genealogical records going back more than a couple generations are just too rare.
[quote=“Dragonbones”][quote=“fenlander”]Which gene(s) is that ?
Would that be the Hakka, Fukienese, indigenous or North Chinese. How about the Japnese is obedience in their DNA ?
[/quote]
Speaking of DNA, the Taipei Times is reporting that 85% of both the Hakka and Hoklo Taiwanese have some aboriginal blood in them. taipeitimes.com/News/front/a … 2003388825
I’ve always expected as much, looking at some of the dark complexions and frizzy hair around here.
I’ve also always thought that there was a tendency for people to try to de-emphasize the portions of their ancestry which are not as highly thought of as the other portions. How many of the great, great, great, great grandkids of the current crop of imported SE Asian brides in Taiwan and Japan will be aware that they are not ‘pure Taiwanese’ (whatever that means) or ‘pure Japanese’?
My dad, who’s Mexican, always told us that all his ancestors were of pure Spanish blood. But you know, my abuelita never looked pure Spanish to me. I don’t buy it. The likelihood of generation after generation of males not dipping their wicks in the local wax is just too low, and accurate genealogical records going back more than a couple generations are just too rare.[/quote]
totally true.
So many white Americans say they are 'irish American, Scottish American, Polish American and Italian American"
Apart from George Bush I’ve never heard of any white American saying they are “English American” hmm
Angles and Saxons “settled” in S. England, thus Wessex (West Saxons), Sussex (South Saxons), Essex, Anglia, etc., because the Celts in the North didn’t “tolerate” their party crashing.
Get your facts right you said the Scots are not at all Anglo Saxon.
In fact a huge
proportion of scots are anglo saxon as well as Picts, celts and norsemen and most of them are protestant. This is common knowledge to most who actually live on the British Isles. Cornwall is now more celtic than Scotland and that is in ENGLAND. Thus the term wasp for all English people is also precisely inaccurate because of Devon and Cornwall and the large catholic population. But back to the point, I’ve never met an English American although i’ve met hundreds of Polish, Irish, Italian, African, and Chinese Americans.
According to a reliable source the Scots are
“The Scottish people (Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich (plural)) are a nation[6] and an ethnic group indigenous to Scotland. As an ethnic group, Scots are a composition of groups such as Picts, Gaels, Brythons, Angles, and Norse”.
Yes i am well aware of East Anglia coming form the word Angle.
East Anglia was the part of the Iceni kingdom of Queen Boedica.
@“simplistic emotions,seem only to like to go shopping,sleep ,watch tv” Although on the surface that seems very true. IF you dig deeper it isnt.
