a bit like me
I doubt this was gang violance. Not justifying it nor your beating, nor did anybody mention you trying to rape anybody⌠your own choice of words. I doubt it was racism also.
Still I have seen guys who claim not to be raping anybody put their hands where they are not welcome.
So you want to come back with a weapon or at least 2 other people eh? Some people just never learn.
Tough talking⌠but not very street wise.
i was in a bar, i was fucking talking to a girl. she wasnt with any one.
and i wouldnt even say i knew if it had anything to do with this. and if it did, that would just make me more determined to carrying on doing it.
most girls are quite capable of looking after themselves, asian humility or not.
[quote=âsteveknlp2â]I was in a bar, I was fucking talking to a girl. she wasnât with any one. And i wouldnt even say i knew if it had anything to do with this. and if it did, that would just make me more determined to carrying on doing it.
most girls are quite capable of looking after themselves, Asian humility or not.[/quote]
I think you assumed she wasnt with anyone. Sitting at a bar by themselves does not mean they are alone.
Ah yes, the bravado of violence begets more violanceâŚ
Good thing you went home to recuperate from your stressful outings in Taiwan.
We certainly wouldnt want for you to get into anymore Asian humility⌠or not.
well whichever. it doesnt matter.
women arent property either way. i certainly dont remember her screaming for the nearest taiwanese guy to come and save her.
so they were sexists then, not racists.
[quote=âsteveknlp2â]
i didnt go out of my way to bang anything that moves. I just did. who cares. do people deserve beatings for doing so?[/quote]No, the beating is unjustified, indeed. But a warning against such behavior would be justified to prevent such unjustified beatings. I think you are a living proof of that.
marboulette
but it didnt have anything to do with that. that was mainly girls id met off the internet.
i never shagged anyone from that bar.
i talked to a girl. who looked to be by herself. and she wasnt complaining.
Hey, Iâve criticized Taiwan law enforcement (the lack of it) on another thread and think it leaves a lot to be desired.
However, in any foreign country, you have to show some caution. Imagine some Yuppie coming into a nightclub back in your barrio back north back home. Imagine he made 3X the money you did, had travelled to 20X more countries, had a much better educational pedigree, had more interesting stories, and being a nightclub, the local girls were showing an interest in him. Youâd want to confront him and would probably be wondering why he decided to come to drink at your hole rather than at a more decent place. For example, my demeanor at a club in the UK would depend on whether I was at a Cafe De Paris type of club in London or some regional pub. You can be sure if it is the latter, Iâd be much more quiet, polite, and watchful.
By being such a loudmouth in dangerous and uncertain environments, I think you have more in common with your attackers than with the low key approaches some of the people on here recommended.
Your attitude is just plain scary. They didnât kill you because they didnât want to. They just wanted to beat the crap out of you. If they wanted you dead, you wouldnât be writing this right now. You lived because at some point, they decided you werenât worth killing.
Your bravado and attitude (and lack of martial skills/knowlegde) shows through in all your posts. This was not the fight you were looking for. It was a brutal beating. Your attitude that you were effectively staging a defense is laughable. With five guys on you and two broken hands and you on the ground, the only thing you were doing was being a punching bag. If theyâd been kicking you in the head, youâd be dead. Again, youâre lucky they didnât want you dead.
And you wonder why you got the shit beat out of you.
The attitude of looking for or inviting a fight is as immature as many of your other statements. This is not some movie or TV show where there is some kind of honor-filled mano-a-mano duel. This is street violence. It seems like you like to find provacative situations so that you can fight and prove something. Violence, rather than the ritualistic fighting/dueling you seem to crave is a nasty, dangerous, uncontrolled situation as you found out.
No, it can leave you maimed and disfigured.
You smack someone hard with that much metal in your hand and youâre probably going to shatter whatever bones are left in there.
You walked into a foreign situation without understanding the culture. The place sounds like a dive with the more impulsive and violent members of society present - a bad place for someone who doesnât understand what is going on. You then take your attitude that you have the right to do what you please and fuck who you please.
You then probably missed all the possibilities of de-escalation with the toughs because you didnât understand the language and cultural cues. Combined with your attitude of dealing with previous situations by claiming that you âkicked their fucking assesâ you got yourself into a really, really bad situation.
Iâm sorry that you got the shit beat out of you. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but after reading through all your posts (and getting a feel for you attitude) I can see why it happened. You constantly deride other people about theoretical sociology but it seems what transpired is that you missed all the applied sociology of being in a bad place with a bad bunch of people with your bad attitude. If you had been more in tune with the cultural situation rather than your theoretical, percieved rights you may have been able to turn a disasterous situation into one simply involving a loss of face on your part.
I believe that night, you proceeded to act on your belief in your rights backed up by the willingness to fight in a (somewhat prescribed) duel, mano-a-mano. What you missed was that this is not the west. At some point you crossed someone very badly and the Chinese response to such a transgression is not a fair fight or duel (as it may be idealized in the west), but is instead a completely disproportionate, voilent act of revenge. Because you didnât understand the cultural situation, you were unable to de-escalate the confrontation (in all likelyhood everything you did wouldâve worked in the UK, but unfortunately, you werenât in the UK). You were never headed for a fight, you were never in a fight, you didnât even have a chance to fight. You crossed them and they exacted their revenge.
Did you derseve the beating you got? Absolutely not. Is violence ever acceptable? No. Was this avoidable? Absolutely. If it wasnât, thereâd be dead and beaten white guys all over Taiwan every weekend.
[quote=âHippoâ]You lived because at some point, they decided you werenât worth killing.[/quote]Hope they got that board meeting on cctv.
[quote=âHippoâ]Your⌠lack of martial skills/knowlegde shows through[/quote]âYou lived because at some point, they decided you werenât worth killingâ, hilarious stuff, like proper samurai they were.
[quote]It seems like⌠The place sounds like⌠You then probably⌠I believe that night⌠At some point⌠:blah: [/quote] You mean you werenât there?! :shocker:
Your attitude is just plain scary. They didnât kill you because they didnât want to. They just wanted to beat the crap out of you. If they wanted you dead, you wouldnât be writing this right now. You lived because at some point, they decided you werenât worth killing.
Your bravado and attitude (and lack of martial skills/knowlegde) shows through in all your posts. This was not the fight you were looking for. It was a brutal beating. Your attitude that you were effectively staging a defense is laughable. With five guys on you and two broken hands and you on the ground, the only thing you were doing was being a punching bag. If theyâd been kicking you in the head, youâd be dead. Again, youâre lucky they didnât want you dead.
And you wonder why you got the shit beat out of you.
The attitude of looking for or inviting a fight is as immature as many of your other statements. This is not some movie or TV show where there is some kind of honor-filled mano-a-mano duel. This is street violence. It seems like you like to find provacative situations so that you can fight and prove something. Violence, rather than the ritualistic fighting/dueling you seem to crave is a nasty, dangerous, uncontrolled situation as you found out.
No, it can leave you maimed and disfigured.
You smack someone hard with that much metal in your hand and youâre probably going to shatter whatever bones are left in there.
You walked into a foreign situation without understanding the culture. The place sounds like a dive with the more impulsive and violent members of society present - a bad place for someone who doesnât understand what is going on. You then take your attitude that you have the right to do what you please and fuck who you please.
You then probably missed all the possibilities of de-escalation with the toughs because you didnât understand the language and cultural cues. Combined with your attitude of dealing with previous situations by claiming that you âkicked their fucking assesâ you got yourself into a really, really bad situation.
Iâm sorry that you got the shit beat out of you. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but after reading through all your posts (and getting a feel for you attitude) I can see why it happened. You constantly deride other people about theoretical sociology but it seems what transpired is that you missed all the applied sociology of being in a bad place with a bad bunch of people with your bad attitude. If you had been more in tune with the cultural situation rather than your theoretical, percieved rights you may have been able to turn a disasterous situation into one simply involving a loss of face on your part.
I believe that night, you proceeded to act on your belief in your rights backed up by the willingness to fight in a (somewhat prescribed) duel, mano-a-mano. What you missed was that this is not the west. At some point you crossed someone very badly and the Chinese response to such a transgression is not a fair fight or duel (as it may be idealized in the west), but is instead a completely disproportionate, voilent act of revenge. Because you didnât understand the cultural situation, you were unable to de-escalate the confrontation (in all likelyhood everything you did wouldâve worked in the UK, but unfortunately, you werenât in the UK). You were never headed for a fight, you were never in a fight, you didnât even have a chance to fight. You crossed them and they exacted their revenge.
Did you derseve the beating you got? Absolutely not. Is violence ever acceptable? No. Was this avoidable? Absolutely. If it wasnât, thereâd be dead and beaten white guys all over Taiwan every weekend.[/quote]
I felt this was very well said.
Given how bad the OP was beaten, the only people who really know what happened are the assailants. What I was trying to point out is that bar/pub behavior in greater China is significantly different than it is in the west.
Actually, this is part of greater China, not Japan as your use of samurai would suggest. In talking with the head of security at the company I consult for, my martial arts coach in Taipei and my own experiences with the night life across greater China, âfightingâ and the concept of âhonorâ here is completly different than in the west. Actually, the concept of âhonorâ in interpersonal confrontation doesnât really apply at all here.
âFaceâ vs. âHonorâ
In the west, guys will get into it at a bar, throw a few punches and then their buds and/or the bouncers will pull them off each other. Injuries are typically not life-threatening. Think hockey fights. There is a cultural ideal of a âfairâ fight solely between two men to settle their differences without killing the other person. Both men typically donât escalate the violence to a point of maiming or disfiguring their opponent and certain combatives, such as groin strikes, biting and eye gouging are seen as âunfairâ or âunmanlyâ. Westerners in these fights try to follow an âhonorâ code to prevent things from getting out of hand.
The problem is that this physical-fighting-honor-code does NOT exist in settling interpersonal confrontations in greater China. Rather than develop a âhonorâ code of limited physical violence to settle differences, greater Chinese culture relies on the concept of saving and giving âfaceâ. This is why there are so few physical fights at exclusively Chinese clubs and bars compared to western clubs and bars. Instead of resolving an interpersonal confrontation with fists, the confrontation is resolved by maneuvering through a convoluted act of saving and giving âfaceâ often involving more people than just the intial two idiots.
For example, Side-A-Idiot gets into an argument with Side-B-Idiot. The whole negotiation of âfaceâ now begins. Side-A-Supporter#1 may try to defuse the situation by saying Side-A-Idiot is too drunk to realize his social faux-pas against Side-B-Idiot. Side-B-Idiot may not accept this de-escalation unless Side-B-Supporter#1 opinions that he believes this to be true and tries to convince Side-B-Idiot to back down. Seeing the game of âfaceâ in play, Side-A-Supporter#2 may offer the actual apology to Side-B-Supporter#2 (giving âfaceâ) so that an apology is issued and accepted witout either of the two original idiots having to lose face by apologizing. So instead of resorting to fisticuffs, the interpersonal confrontation is settled through a negotiation of âfaceâ, often not by just the two combatants, but also by their respective supporters.
So where do the western guys get screwed by this? The western guy is used to resolving a confrontation by backing it up with limited violence. This is a huge, huge problem because greater Chinese culture is not designed to use limited physical violence to resolve interpersonal confrontations because interpersonal confrontations are completely handled through the non-violent diplomacy of âfaceâ.
What happens when two countries square off and the diplomacy fails? They go to war. And thatâs how the Chinese guy reacts when the westerner skips or is oblivious to the entire diplomacy maneuvering of âfaceâ. The Chinese guy goes to war. Remember, negotiations of âfaceâ often involved entire sides of people, not just one individual. So when the Chinese mobilize for physical confrontation, whole sides of people get into the fight. This is not a question of âhonorâ in the western sense of two men dueling and the crowd keeping others out so that there is a âfairâ fight only between the two people. It in fact is nearly the opposite.
Westerners have developed a âsafetyâ of sorts by instituting an âhonorâ code that limits the amount of physical violence two men are allowed to enact on each other. Even if the one individual exceeds this limit, one of the supporters will step in to break up or limit the violence to keep things from geting out of hand. This âsafetyâ does not exist in Chinese culture. Once you mess up âfaceâ it goes to war/vengence/unlimited violence and the supporters arenât there to break it up â theyâre there to support their side in the destruction of the opponent.
Once youâre past the âfaceâ saving point, it goes from the limited ground skirmish of western dueling to the Chinese tactic of unlimited nuclear war. And this is why walking out of the bar may not work. There was a recent nightclub fight in Taipei where one man slapped another. The slapper then left the club. The slappee got his supporters together, tracked the slapper to his house where they then proceded to kill him. While death is not common, Iâve heard of stories where one party waits outside in his car and then runs over the other party when they leave the nightclub. In western eyes, this level of disproportionate response in violence is crazy. In Chinese eyes, the limited violence of western âhonorâ is artificial and stupid.
Interpersonal confrontations in greater China are settled through giving and saving âfaceâ. Intepersonal confrontations in the west are settled through a process of âhonorâ. While they may seem similar, there are significant differences. It seems like the OP tried to settle his confrontation by resorting to âhonorâ, missed the negotiation of âfaceâ and ended up in a situation of unlimited violence.
I donât think they quite had a meeting, but remember, they worked this whole confrontation as a team or side preserving âfaceâ â not as an individual following western âhonorâ.
[quote=âHippoâ]Westerners have developed a âsafetyâ of sorts by instituting an âhonorâ code that limits the amount of physical violence two men are allowed to enact on each other. Even if the one individual exceeds this limit, one of the supporters will step in to break up or limit the violence to keep things from geting out of hand.[/quote]He he priceless stuff 
Anymore where this came from?
[quote]The slapper then left the club.[/quote]Must have been Carnegies :roflmao:
Your comment brings up an interesting point which can best be illustrated by looking at the sudden rise in knife-killings in the UK. The UK probably has one of the oldest and most developed pub-cultures in the world. A minor part of that pub culture has been the hooligan-ish aspect involving pub brawls. For generations this kind of brawling has been limited to not seriously hurting your opponent.
The introduction of knives into this old tradition of pub brawling has turned it from a way to settle interpersonal confrontations to homicide.
I think the lament is that in the old days men settled issues with their fists in a âfairâ fight (the personal duel that is referred to when western men talk about âhonorâ in fighting). The introduction of young men willing to bring knives to a fist fight in the UK has forever changed that equation, just as the ready availablity of hand guns in the USA creates a completely different atmosphere in bars and nightclubs there.
All Iâm trying to say is that if you go to a nightclub or bar in greater China with expectations that the locals are going to understand and abide by your western interpretation of âhonorâ, and you then procede to ignore all the warning signs of âfaceâ negotiation because you expect things to be settled âhonorablyâ, you may be in for a rude surprise.
The severity of the beating recieved by the OP sickens me. The disproportionate infliction of violence, the lack of justice and the pain and disfigurement suffered by the OP cannot be excused in any way. Do I think the OP did anything to deserve such a life-threatening beating? While I may not be fond of the OPâs attitude, I highly doubt he did anything that could rationally justify the beating he recieved. I just want to present an interpretation of events that may offer insight into what happened and prevent it from happening again.
[quote=âHippoâ]I highly doubt he did anything that could rationally justify the beating he recieved.[/quote]That I can agree with.
blah blah fucking blah blah fucking blah.
The fact is, someone hit me in the BACK of the head, whether or not Iâd caused them to lose âfaceâ.
If they had difficulty communicating with me, then due to the way I looked, it was no doubt also self-evident I didnât speak the language, and wasnât about to debate with them.
I then got FOLLWED quite a few metres and after being surrounded, unfortunately managed to get pinned against a wall, which is the only reason my injuries are so bad, along with losing my glasses, and nothing to do with some intrinsic aspect of asian personality.
Because in any other situation there would almost certainly have been a way out with a lot less injury, martial skills or not (I actually did jiu jitsu for a while).
I then got hit on the ground when I was clearly no physical threat to anyone. Regardless of whatever culture you belong to, this is fucking pointless, and you again offer nothing more than a kind relativistic justification for it.
Westerners very rarely fight with this supposed code of honour that you posit, and Iâve seen people jumped on by a gang many a time. sometimes those people might have some kind of âhonourâ and stop after a minor beating, often in the uk people are literally beaten to death. Whether it happens here or there its equally pointless.
Because its not going to stop men and women going to bars and trying to fuck each other. Ive found women just kind of laugh at the fucking stupidity of men fighting over them, and no doubt it would seem funny to me if i had a fanny.
Indeed, women are often encouraging and willing participants, as I have found in the west, and definitely so in taiwan.
The dis-proportionateness of the violence says little about asian culture but much more about the individuals involved: probably pretty young they all looked under about 25, probably very drunk because they cant take their alcohol, they go with the morality of the herd, no one actively deciding how badly to beat me, then they decide to stop when they realise probably how much I was bleeding, because theyre afraid of getting caught or people intervening.
Psychologically, this is cowardice regardless of the latitudinal position in which it happens.
As regarding the yuppie: well peronally I wouldnât do anything. as Iâve said, Iâve been out with many girls who got approached all the time by guys, one in particular often by foreigners. This is because I donât particularly want to fight over any women Iâm with. I have no idea how long Iâll even be with that person, or what their thought are about me. Besides, even some guy much smaller than me might be shit hot at karate. So if I was gonna go on like that Iâd need a âcrewâ every time I went anywhere to back me ep.
And needing to have a âcrewâ would probably mean I could never leave my home country, I could only go to cerertain places, I probably wouldnât be able to have much social aspiration ⌠which no doubt probably describes prety well the people actually did jump me.
Most girls are well accustomed to dealing with guys, and as we all know, asian cultural studie saside, the most likely person to attack or kill any woman anywhere in the world is her own husband, partner or relative.
No wonder women laugh at us eh?
oh, and knifings in the UK are lower than just about everywher in europe. there is no rise.
just an increase in media coverage.
âYour attitude is just plain scary. They didnât kill you because they didnât want to. They just wanted to beat the crap out of you. If they wanted you dead, you wouldnât be writing this right now. You lived because at some point, they decided you werenât worth killing.â
No, more than likely they left because they thought they might have, or that I might die, and hence there would be consequences for them due to social institutions which override the steretypical asian values posited.
"This was not the fight you were looking for. It was a brutal beating. Your attitude that you were effectively staging a defense is laughable. With five guys on you and two broken hands and you on the ground, the only thing you were doing was being a punching bag. "
the point that not one of them had the guts required to hit me with a fist still stands.
"The attitude of looking for or inviting a fight is as immature as many of your other statements. "
I dont look for a fight. I said other peopel had started on me before.
.
â[quote=âsteveknlp2â] What doesnât kill me makes me stronger.[/quote]
No, it can leave you maimed and disfigured.â
But psychologically it makes me more determined to carry on as normal
"ou smack someone hard with that much metal in your hand and youâre probably going to shatter whatever bones are left in there. "
not once it heals it will be stronger than it was. hence the point i made earlier.
" You then take your attitude that you have the right to do what you please and fuck who you please."
I didnt fuck anyone.
âYou then probably missed all the possibilities of de-escalation with the toughsâ
they werent tough they wree cowards. like most of humanity.
"Iâm sorry that you got the shit beat out of you. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but after reading through all your posts (and getting a feel for you attitude) I can see why it happened. You constantly deride other people about theoretical sociology but it seems what transpired is that you missed all the applied sociology of being in a bad place with a bad bunch of people with your bad attitude. If you had been more in tune with the cultural situation rather than your theoretical, percieved rights you may have been able to turn a disasterous situation into one simply involving a loss of face on your part. "
again this just seems like a long winded justification for it. as ive repeatedly stated i dont even know if it had anything to do with talking to anyone. i dont know what losing face means. its just more and more words. more waflle. i no what a broken arm is though.
i didnt cross them, because i have no understanding of how this is supposed to have accorred. therefore i can only ever and always carry on as normal, because their actions literally make no sense.
" No. Was this avoidable? Absolutely. "
no it wasnt. i dont speak chinese. therefore i walked away. walkign away must be a pretty universal phenomenon right? then i got hit in the BACK of the head, FOLLOWED and CORNERED.
I dont percieve i have any rights, general or otherwise. I came on here to see if anyone had any ideas on here about how to make some MONEY out of it.
Now before you bang on about how claiming âcompensationâ means i believe in rights or justice kids, remember: money is the most spectacular illusion society has to offer. still, it comes in useful.
[quote]I donât know what losing face means.[/quote]Not knowing what losing face means while frequenting âquestionableâ night clubs in Taiwan and approaching local gals is similar to a kid sticking his tongue out on a rusty metal railing when itâs forty degrees below freezing temperature. You only do it once and you learn 
marboulette
My sympathy lasted for roughly the first page of this thread. Now any thread of concern for your well being, anger at the thugs that set upon you, ire at the powers that be for letting said thugs go have all goneâŚ
Methinks that if you can manage be to such a dick to people that are being sympathetic to your predicament then I have to wonder if you were not more of a cause to what happened to you.
For one whose hands are shredded (or whatever) you are doing a mighty fine job of spewing forth pages and pages of screed. Again, reason to pause and think whether or not things are as bad as you are making out.
It appears to me that you are doing nothing but alienating yourself here, which I assume is not what your purpose originally was. Do you not think its about time to STFU? For a while at leastâŚ
Oh, and you really are beginning to sound like that old proverbial broken record.
Goodnight!