It’s reassuring to know that ol’ Slobodan was not such a bad guy after all. Used to buy his mother flowers and that.
Can you say, Mission Accomplished?
My double standards? I don’t see me having said Clinton didn’t lie nor did I say he did lie - the latter is the argument Tigerman wants to have and I am not going to entertain him on that.
[quote]What about this Rascal and Traveller:
[quote]
In Kosovo, the American people were told by the Clinton administration that the U.S. had to act through NATO because hundreds of thousands of “ethnic Albanians” in Kosovo were victims of “ethnic cleansing” or even “genocide.” This was a lie. Investigators have determined that between 2,000 and 3,000 died in the Kosovo civil war, with several hundred of those deaths being Serbs. The media failed to cover a recent Washington conference at which Serbian Orthodox Bishop Artemije of Kosovo described how the “ethnic cleansing” that was supposedly ended by the war has continued, with the Serbs being the victims. The pre-war population of 250,000 Serbs in Kosovo has declined to less than 100,000. He produced documentary evidence, a book entitled Crucified Kosovo, showing that more than 100 Christian churches have been destroyed, and graves and tombs have been desecrated, by the Muslim extremists there. Yet the Kerry campaign is proud that Kerry backed Clinton’s war, asserting that the senator “was a strong proponent of U.S. participation in the NATO intervention that put an end to the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.” Kerry is never challenged on this blatant falsehood.[/quote][/quote]
Without a link to the source this means nothing and had this been an argument against Bush you would have screamed “media bias”. I expect you to provide direct, complete and correct quotes from Clinton and not some “crackpot” opinion (as it appears to be).
Richardm:
But we now KNOW that there was no ethnic cleansing going on in Kosovo. Clinton LIED. Clinton did not get UN approval. Clinton did not even get congressional approval and Kerry supported all of this. He voted for it.
Traveler and Rascal:
What do you say about Clinton’s claim to KNOW that the atrocities had started? Hmmm? I thought Traveller that we would not be able to show you this evidence. What do you have to say for yourself now?
Ah yes, Rascal an argument that you do not want to have? Where have I heard this before?
Let me see pre-emptive action would be dangerous and would set a dangerous precedent and would go against rule of law, international law, etc. until it was revealed that Germany had signed a treaty committing itself to pre-emptive action too in June 2003 in Luxembourg but then you didn’t want to talk about that. You wanted to discuss only America.
Then the issue was one where Bush acted without UN approval and that was also bad because it was against international law, but when other examples such as Clinton’s actions in Kosovo and Bosnia which your nation not only supported but was absolutely instrumental in causing the whole conflict in the first place, you had nothing more to say.
Then it is all about lying and misleading the American and world public because Bush said he KNEW you said. Well here we have Clinton saying he KNEW as well and you don’t want to discuss this because it is not relevant.
Does anyone else see this as the cheap cop out that I do? Rascal, you are so biased that it is incredible. Admit it. I am a Bush supporter and am therefore biased but you have the audacity to pretend that it is only the principles of this issue that matter to you, but time and time again as soon as numerous examples of how the principles have been trashed previously and now by other actors, you are unconcerned because that does not interest you. You only want to talk about George Bush.
Remember how Germany armed Saddam, sold him 50% of his nuclear, missile and chemical weapons equipment before the first Gulf War? Remember how Iran is suing no other nation but Germany for its supplying of Saddam and his wmd arsenal? Remember? But I am sure that you do not want to talk about this either. You are obsessed about Bush in a way that only Gunther Grass would understand. Crab Walk. Crab Walk. Crab Walk.
Ah Rascal:
Such a poor loser. So unbecoming of you. That link? Why here it is… How remiss of me to forget to include it…
dod.gov/news/Jun1999/n06031999_9906031.html
Right from the U.S. Dept of Defense which quoted Clinton’s official speech in full. Check it out. Clinton Lied.
What do you have to say now?
First, pre-emptive treaties are Bush’s greatest evil until you find out that Germany and France have committed themselves in Luxembourg in 2003 to one as well.
Then, it is the breaking of international law, going out of the UN but hey Bosnia and Kosovo? Then nothing to say.
Then it was Bush’s big lie to the American people but now here we have Clinton lying and Kerry supporting it and Germany and France participating fully in it with NARY a complaint later about how they were tricked.
Wonder what you will try next? Hmmm? Maybe you just don’t like Bush’s style? his hair? His belt buckle? The one that he is going to use to whup your ass? haha
[quote=“fred smith”]Richardm:
But we now KNOW that there was no ethnic cleansing going on in Kosovo. Clinton LIED. Clinton did not get UN approval. Clinton did not even get congressional approval and Kerry supported all of this. He voted for it.
Traveler and Rascal:
What do you say about Clinton’s claim to KNOW that the atrocities had started? Hmmm? I thought Traveller that we would not be able to show you this evidence. What do you have to say for yourself now?[/quote]
Fred, the Clinton comment is taken three months after the start of the conflict, and is looking back in time, not being used as justifiaction for the conflict still to be started. The comparison in that regard is a little weak dont you think, but at least you tried, more than i would have expected from others, hence the original comment.
Just a few statements and assertions made by President Clinton when justifying the use of US military force even though such use was not approved by either the US Congress or by the UN:
Note to Traveller: The above statements by Clinton was issued prior to the start of the bombing.
Looks like Clinton is stating “ethnic cleansing” as an absolute true fact.
He must be a liar!
Oh, so they were our good “friends”? In the binary world of Republican ideology, I suppose that’s what passes for logic or good policy. However, the rest of us have to live in the real world.
How so? Putting aside Cheney’s loony rants, please provide credible information that Saddam was interested in anything other than his own skin. Iraq did terrible things to their own people. Iraq invaded Kuwait. Iraq threatened Saudi Arabia. However, please show how Iraq had planned to directly attack the U.S.
… I would have to be more sensible than a neocon.
I stopped reading when I realized the article was written by a complete ignoramus. Writing about our great World War I ally “Yugoslavia”? He might as well be writing about America’s good buddies in Sugargumdropland. Mmm… sugargumdrops…
How so? Did Clinton say that he had UN approval in the Security Council and that he had congressional approval?
Ah what a poor loser you are Traveller:
Here is the quote again…
[quote]“We know that by the time our air strikes began, the Serb
campaign of executions and expulsions had already started,” he
said. Milosevic was indicted in part because of a massacre of
ethnic Albanians in Kosovo that occurred in January – two
months before NATO bombing started March 24. Using similar
tactics in Croatia and Bosnia earlier this decade, Milosevic
loyalists drove 2.5 million people from their homes and are
believed to have killed about 250,000 of them, Clinton noted.[/quote]
You claimed that we could not find a statement by Clinton claiming that he KNEW and that this would make a difference. But so much the worse if after the fact when the evidence was clear that there was no ethnic cleansing that he still said KNEW. We KNOW he said. Given that he knew no such thing and probably even KNEW that there was no such ethnic cleansing at the time of the speech, you have doubly proved my point that Clinton LIED. Thank you!
And for more hilarious personalities involved in the “Kosovo killings” I give you Robin Cook of recent Downing Street fame…
The October 31 Sunday Times of London reported that an all-party committee of MPs had asked Britain’s Foreign Secretary Robin Cook to answer for having misled the public over the scale of civilian deaths in Kosovo. Labour MP Alice Mahon, who chairs the Balkans committee, said, "When you consider that 1,500 civilians or more were killed during NATO bombing, you have to ask whether the intervention was justified.
Fred, Tigerman
Stop confusing Bosnia and Kosovo. Please. Ethnic cleanising certainly did take place in Bosnia and certainly was about to move up a gear in Kosovo.
Thanks
BB
I think I now see what Tigerman and fred are getting at: all recent US presidents are liars and the European governments should hence not listen nor support them.
BB:
I have not confused Bosnia and Kosovo. My quotes are in reference to Kosovo and the ethnic cleansing that did NOT occur there. Therefore, we must assume that Clinton was LYING also given that the speech occured after the war he would have KNOWN that what he was saying was not true therefore he was DOUBLY LYING. His remarks are on record about the urgent need to deal with the growing ethnic cleansing and execution campaign in Kosovo. He was talking about tens if not hundreds of thousands when in reality 2,000 to 3,000 were killed and several hundred of these were in fact Kosovo Serbs.
My only reference to Bosnia is that we did not have a UN authorization there either. Please reread again CAREFULLY.
Fred, trust you to take a meaning that only suits your purpose, please indicate if everything really has to be spelled out as if you were a 5 year old, i thought that was not the case.
Did Clinton go around using those words in the run up to the conflict to obtain coalition partners ? If so then please prove it, if not then the comparisons are non valid.
And what do you mean when you say there had been no ethnic cleansing, which cloud fairy land are you living in now.
I have one question.
How does the truth or falsehood the attack on Kosovo change whether or not Bush lied on the Iraq matter? If Bush did lie, how does saying “Well, Clinton lied too!” make it any less egregious?
EDIT: OK, so it was two questions.
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
hahaha Rascal:
It is precisely statements like that that reveal that you know and I mean KNOW when you are beaten. haha Must run. It’s been fun but gotta go to some meetings. Catch up with you later. I KNOW that you will want to continue this haha See ya Rascal.
Traveller:
Also weak, very weak. You asked for KNOW, you got KNOW and now you don’t know what to say do you? So clap away, you were proven wrong and Rascal’s obsession with American presidents and lying has been shown to be clearly a matter of bias and not as he claims principled interest. Also be sure and look up to the quote on how Robin Cook former Minister of Foreign Affairs of the UK LIED as well. Shall we check into Schroeder’s performance recently as well or do you want to let it go. Hahahahaah
[quote=“Tetsuo”]I have one question.
How does the truth or falsehood the attack on Kosovo change whether or not Bush lied on the Iraq matter? If Bush did lie, how does saying “Well, Clinton lied too!” make it any less egregious?[/quote]
Nobody is saying that at all.
Look, this is the same argument as was put forth in the “Rascal Lied re WMD” thread.
I don’t think that Clinton lied about ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. I don’t even think that Rascal lied re WMD. And I do not think that Bush lied re WMD either.
Clinton was wrong about ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. Rascal was wrong about WMD in Iraq. And Bush too was wrong about WMD in Iraq.
If, according to Rascal’s logic, as illustrated in his statements and arguments, Bush “lied” because he stated that something was a true fact, then the same standard must of course apply to Clinton and Rascal.
That’s all. Its really quite simple.
Traveller:
Here’s another European lying away. Glad to see you are interested in all lies including those made by Rascal and Clinton!!!
The October 31 Sunday Times of London reported that an all-party committee of MPs had asked Britain’s Foreign Secretary Robin Cook to answer for having misled the public over the scale of civilian deaths in Kosovo. Labour MP Alice Mahon, who chairs the Balkans committee, said, "When you consider that 1,500 civilians or more were killed during NATO bombing, you have to ask whether the intervention was justified.
Run away, Rascal… run away! 