Anti-Chen vs. Pro-China

There’s a large portion of the population that is not pro-China, but rather anti-Chen. They identify themselves as Taiwanese (not Chinese) and support the status quo but reject Chen Shuibian’s policies and aspirations, including Taiwan independence. Some may even have supported Chen and the DPP in previous elections, but are dismayed with his incompetence and poor policy-making.

Meanwhile, the actual people, both politicians and general public, who are truly “pro-China” are much smaller in number. Let’s strip away the sensationalism of the reporting of the “pro-localization” media and take a look at the numbers.

The PFP is unabashedly pro-China, but its constituency is relatively small. The PFP only has 25 legislators, right?

As far as the Chinese Nationalist Party goes, there is definitely a more extreme faction, we could say the Super Blues, that blatantly favor pro-China policies, but you also have a more moderate wing of the party, which includes the chairman Ma Yingjiu. If anything, the balance has been tipped somewhat by Super Blue Lian “Ye Ye” Zhan stepping down (or up) to assume the mantle of “Honorary Chairman.”

Ma favors a more pragmatic path than Chen. To the pro-localization media, it means that if elected Ma will either be duped by the PRC into signing the wrong document, thus surrendering Taiwan’s sovereignty, or consciously hand Taiwan over to Beijing. It’s got to be one of the two.

But what the pro-localization media would do well to realize at this point is that ultimately, being anti-Chen means favoring the survival of Taiwan. You don’t even have to support the blues to come to this conclusion. Su Zhengcheng realizes it too. He just doesn’t want to seem disloyal to his boss. Even the United States (which has been very patient and cautious not to denounce Chen publicly) has had enough of Chen Shuibian, and let him know it. Chen got exactly what he deserved.

Meanwhile, the DPP would do well to distance itself from Chen Shuibian and drop Taiwan independence from its platform altogether, and pursue a more moderate pro-localization line if it wants to compete with the KMT in 2008.

one question:

Isn’t being against Taiwan Independence the same as being Pro-China? Because Taiwan is independent now, the only thing that is missing is the de jure part for most countries in the world.

In the end, you can also be anti-Chen and Pro-Independency, you just have to look at the president as a victim of the status quo that rules Taiwan. I believe that mostly, Chen is at fault for not being able to maneuver in the political swamp and is slowly drowning himself. If things would be different with another person, I don’t know, as the opposition did made sure in the last 6 years that the swamp was constantly renewed in mud. So in the end you have a president who is at fault for either not disbanding the LY once he understood there was no way he could govern this country, or not stepping down himself.

Also, the fact that all the attempts to combat corruption ended in the LY (may it be blocking sunshine bills or the non election of the Control Yuan) means that the legislators are the ones least interested in cleaning up the government. So why is not the people coming out to the streets asking for the dissolution of the LY? Because it is easier to point to a monkey and say he is the cullprit, than to say the problem are all the monkeys. Kill that monkey and everyone will be happy, although nothing will change.

Please inform me of the exact date and the circumstances when Taiwan achieved its independence. (I have been unable to find this information.)

Thank you.

Hartzell, independence is how other countries see yours. If there are countries who declare the Republic of China as a country, then a form of independence is obtained. Also, to who has Taiwan to report? Taiwan is a lot more independent than the countries in the EU, by example.

The reality is that not many countries see Taiwan as independence. Even if there is some minor countries who do that, they probably take Taiwan as their God of properity, no more no less. If votes are taken at UN, Taiwan should have being returned to PRC a long time ago.

Most posters here can’t reconcile being anti-DPP and anti-China. It appears the debate must be framed in terms of either bring pro-DPP (anti-China) or pro-China (anti-DPP). Thus the arguments are always circular. For example, any criticism of the DPP means you’re a communist. )Apparently the KMT are all communists now.)


It’s clear that the core value of Taiwan independence movement is an anti-Chinese ethnicity and anti-Chinese culture movement. It has nothing to do with anti-communism. That’s why it gets no support from the overseas Chinese or Huaren.

Look, if it wasn’t for America constantly being at war somewhere or other since 1941 the world wouldn’t be the safe place it is now. Don’t you read the news?

A sense of humor elude me when some saint suggested that America are at war, for us. We only pray that they will not destruct us all with the 4th world war.

Lucan, I guess you are very proud of the military expansionism of the US, but I am not.

Let me quote some examples to you:

  • The Mujahidines where financed to fight Russians and then took control of Afghanistan, and created one of the most cruel authoritarian governments in the world
  • The rise of power of Chile’s authoritarian government of Augusto Pinochet, against the democraticly ellected Salvador Allende - Augusto Pinochet is known to have killed more than 3,000 people just to stay in power (including flights over the Pacific in helicopter and dumping the dissidents in the ocean)
  • Saddam Hussain was a key member of the US policy in the 70’s in the Middle East against Iran and the Soviet Union.
  • The support of many african parties in civil wars (UNITA in Angola, RENAMO in Mozambique, just to cite some cases)
  • The support of the Indonesian Invasion of East Timor (that was followed by decades of human rights abuse that ended up with more than 100,000 dead people)

That’s LORD Lucan if you will, and I’d watch yer sorry pinko arse if I was you, LORD Lucan has contacts, you could find yourself in an orange jumpsuit, flip flops and clutching nothing but the koran on a Cuban beach real fast. :slight_smile:


That’s LORD Lucan if you will, and I’d watch yer sorry pinko arse if I was you, LORD Lucan has contacts, you could find yourself in an orange jumpsuit, flip flops and clutching nothing but the koran on a Cuban beach real fast. :slight_smile:


Yes. I was the only one of Nixon’s burglars that didn’t get caught (I was on the loo at the time), and now I am Head of Irony at the JF Kennedy Institute in Smolensk teaching classes on the US Presidential Election of 1960.

The koran is a kind of cocktail made with juniper berries. We discovered it in the Watergate Hotel. As Hoffa once said to me: “Gnnnrph! Aargh! Ugh.”

And he meant every word of it.

Good night and good grief.

Well, my connections go to the world oldest companies… and they are both italian…

One must keep in mind that being pro-China does not equate to being pro-CCP. One can be anti-Chen, pro-China, and anti-CCP at the same time.

one can be anti-anything - or pro-anything - just depends on what he has to win or lose by deciding who/what to support or go against. For me, I am anti-Chen, anti-KMT, anti-CCP and pro-love and development…

The official name of Taiwan is the “Republic of China.” The territorial boundaries of the Republic of China are as specified in the Constitution, and those have always been interpreted to include all of Mainland China.

Many posters in these forums say that the ROC has diplomatic relations. But, for the countries which claim to recognize the ROC, do they actually recognize the territorial boundaries as specified in the ROC Constitution?

I would guess that they most certainly do not.

(I would be interested to see someone produce some official paperwork to prove me wrong.)

In summary, the ROC is not an independent and sovereign nation. Being “Anti-Chen” is not equivalent to being “Pro-China.”

Here in the west of an island, lies a land
Beyond the horizon, I see glimmer of lingering
Borne by the channel of a strait
High up in Yushan flies my heart
Calmly with quiet surroundings, the spirit flutter with joy
… Exalted to deep meditation, I wake up with hope
Borne to and fro, beyond the will fulfill.
The world is at peace
Homeward-bound, ROC, ROC

To Fiji is where some Hoklo-TI/ers are homeward bound because they believe they are South Sea islanders, or “not Chinese.”

While at the other end of the political spectrum in ROC, homeward bound is Nanjing to Beijing and everything else in between.

And even in greater numbers oversea ROC citizens are scattered from Honolulu to Washington DC. Scratching their heads about the great allie that was suppose to help retake the communist.

ROC citizens, the Irish of South East Asia. Don’t know what they are fighting about, but they love talking about a good fight…or at least among themselves.

From Yushan to Tian Shan, from Deng to Chen, this is what made a home. Whatever systems deployed to govern is immaterial as long as it is for a good betterment of the people and for the people.

Communist? Believe it’s a rare species of human sapiens which need extra protection now. All we see in this homeland, are all capitalists with the corrupts mingling in our midst.

It’s good to fight but we recommend that the fight is restricted to love making. Wow, that’s enlightenment.