Anti-war Iraq veteran re-drafted, dis-honorably discharged

[quote]Iraq veteran and honorably discharged Marine Sgt. Adam Kokesh has been the Pentagon’s biggest public relations nightmare this year, because he’s some kind of magical Cindy Sheehan — people actually like him!

And while right-wingers had no problem mocking the mother of a soldier killed in Iraq, they have a tougher time mocking an actual living Marine male veteran who actually fought in the war they just write about on their blogs. Plus, you get the feeling he wouldn’t mind beating the shit out of, say, the entire staff of National Review Online … and that they’d probably enjoy it, too.

[b]On Monday, Kokesh has to show up at a hearing so the Corps can re-discharge him, this time dishonorably. Why? Because even when you get out of the military these days, Rumsfeld’s “back door draft” makes you eligible for another call-up because there aren’t enough people volunteering to jump in the Baghdad Meatgrinder. But they don’t want him back, even for the Individual Ready Reserve. So what’s the point?

All the chickenhawks will have permission to call him a traitor or whatever on the blogs and talk radio if he suddenly becomes dishonorably discharged, that’s the point![/b][/quote]

Marine Corps Wants America’s Favorite Marine to Shut Up

and

Corps Accused of Muzzle Tactics

Truly, truly incredible what these folks will stoop to! If, twenty years from now, he runs for office, I suppose they’ll also come out and claim he was a coward to boot! Anything to keep the words “Liberal” and “Patriot” separated in the public’s mind.

afaik, even after being discharged, you are still on-call in the inactive reserves. This is hardly a back door draft. But to call him up to DD him. Ouch.

What’s the point?

Is this one of the persons wearing a military uniform while conducting his “protests”?

Thats a no-no and violation of the UCMJ And, AFAIK, the reason for his legal problems.

oh and btw, you can’t have a “re-draft” without a draft.

“And there ain’t you draft no more.” Sgt Hulka

JD -
Here’s the real story, the guy is a reservist, and look at his response to a letter he received from his CO about his actions. BTW, he is from a very wealthy family, his Daddy owns a race track in Santa Fe and this guy goes around telling people that the military practices ‘class genocide’ among its poor recruits…what a jerk-wad.

[quote]U.S. Marine Vet Faces Hearing on Discharge Status for Wearing Uniform at Protest
Thursday, May 31, 2007

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — An Iraq war veteran could lose his honorable discharge status after being photographed wearing fatigues at an anti-war protest.

Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh and other veterans marked the fourth anniversary of the war in Iraq in March by wearing their uniforms – with military insignia removed – and roaming around the nation’s capital on a mock patrol.

After Kokesh was identified in a photo cutline in The Washington Post, a superior officer sent him a letter saying he might have violated a rule prohibiting troops from wearing uniforms without authorization.

Kokesh, a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War, responded with an obscenity.

Now, a military panel has been scheduled to meet with Kokesh on Monday to decide whether his discharge status should be changed from “honorable” to “other than honorable.”

“This is clearly a case of selective prosecution and intimidation of veterans who speak out against the war,” Kokesh said. “To suggest that while as a veteran you don’t have freedom of speech is absurd.”

Kokesh is part of the Individual Ready Reserve, a segment of the reserves that consists mainly of those who have left active duty but still have time remaining on their eight-year military obligations.

His attorney, Mike Lebowitz, said Kokesh’s IRR status ends June 18. He said at least three other veterans have been investigated because of their involvement at demonstrations.

Kokesh, 25, enlisted in the Marines while still attending high school in New Mexico. He was a reservist in an artillery unit, assigned to the November Battery, 5th Battalion, 14th Regiment of the 4th Division based out of Pico Rivera, Calif., near Los Angeles.

Kokesh said he had reservations about Iraq even before the United States invaded, but wanted to go there to help rebuild schools and mosques after Saddam Hussein’s regime was toppled. He even learned Arabic.

He said he grew disillusioned with the war during his first tour, and now believes there is no way for the country to achieve the rule of law with a foreign military imposing martial law.

He was supposed to go to Iraq a second time, but was demoted from sergeant to corporal and not allowed to return after it was learned that he brought a pistol back after his first tour in 2004.

Kokesh argues that he was not representing the military at the protest in Washington, and he made that clear by removing his name tag and other military insignia from his uniform.

Lebowitz said Kokesh technically is a civilian unless recalled to active duty and had the right to be disrespectful in his response to the officer. He called the proceedings against Kokesh highly unusual and said the military usually seeks to change a veteran’s discharge status only if a crime has been committed.

If his discharge status is changed, Kokesh said he could lose some health benefits and be forced to repay about $10,800 he received to obtain his undergraduate degree on the GI Bill.

Kokesh said he holds no ill will toward the Marines.

“I love the Marine Corps,” he said. “I always have loved the Marine Corps, and that is why I’m particularly offended to see it being used for political ends.”

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276615,00.html[/quote]

Its the details that Vay never posts that make the difference between truth and his spinn.

Iraq Veterans Against The War…John Kerry wannabes.

Er, the fact that he brought a pistol back from Iraq is in the original article, TC. And it doesn’t make him a jerk-wad. It makes him an average joe. My grandpa used to have a Nazi jacket from WW2. Is he a jerkward?

And the guy’s class background is pretty darn irrelevant. How come every time someone who the Right would otherwise espouse as a poster-boy (IE a veteran) doesn’t toe the line, that person’s “hero” status is suddenly revoked, and they now become a craven, shrinking-violet Ivory Tower Elitist?

BTW, I think the title of the thread “anti-war veteran” makes it fairly obvious he was a demonstrator. It’s also prominently pointed out in the article I quoted.

But JD, I agree that “re-drafted” is an inaccurate term.

So much for freedom of speech.

Oh I dunno. I mean there is freedom to say what you like, it’s just there are other powers eager to fuck you as hard as they like for what you say.

Poor bastard. Mind you it has to be a hard sell getting people into the military when it carries on like this.

HG

Being from the upper class does not disqualify someone from observing and being concerned about the injustices the lower classes experience.

How does this make him a jerk-wad?

I feel that the guy, on inactive reserve, has every right to demonstrate against the government, with or without his uniform and name tag on.

I also feel that Vay’s thread title is incorrect. There was no draft, ergo, there could be no re-draft.

Additionally, the USMC has every right to call this guy back, and change the status of his discharge, and force him to repay GI Bill money.

Read the fine print boys.

Speculation makes me think that this guy has also done just about everything to get out of going back to Iraq: bringing a weapon home (and Vay, there is a WORLD of difference in bringing home a jacket and in bringing home a firearm), and then doing idiotic street patrols in Washington. He enlisted in the USMCReserve, got sent to The Suck, and really didn’t want to go back.

I hope he knows that a DD follows you wherever you go. Good luck on those job interviews.

That mean you’ll change it? :wink:

TC also has every right to say this guy is jerkwad, if only to keep this term in circulation. This whole class warfare against the poor line is old, and I don’t buy it.

If you want to point out class warfare against the poor, start with institutionalized welfare, street gangs, drugs and teen pregnancy.

The ones who join the military from this kind of background are the SUCCESSES not the failures.

Except Taiwan, eh JD? :laughing:

But is that right? I had no idea. Simply isn’t an issue in Oz. Indeed if you wanted to menton it you could probably invent a great employable tale about how fucked the military was and how your standards were far higher.

HG

I don’t think this is a FOS issue cf. This guy can say whatever he wants to say. However, he’d best be aware that while he is on IAR, or Ready Reserve, there are things he shouldn’t do. Get in barfights…fine. Get on national TV badmouthing the Corps? Oh Hell no!

The lines against rulebreaking in the military are not always clear, but they ALWAYS favor the house.

Vay -
SOP is the guy was marked as a “Class 4 - Ineligible for reenlistment” due to his bringing back the pistol from Iraq. A pistol is a weapon. A weapon is a controlled item according to the military. Your Grandfathers nazi jacket is completely irrelevant to this situation - but thanks for trying to change the context.
As to his background - it is very relevant to his actions as a tool for the IVAW group. He is just another tool used to preach class division and ‘class/political separation’…kinda like You Vay when you consistently refer to anyone dis-agreeing with you or calling you on your tabloid headlines as from the eeevvviiillll “Right.”

He’s a jerkwad for being used as a tool by this group, IVAW, and for his preaching this bs, IMO.

And also, he may have a “free speech” issue. Possibly so. Except for the fact of the uniform and the IRR status.

Oh, and Vay…where did you get the ‘Dishonorable Discharge’ attribute from? Everything I’ve read so far looks towards a ‘General Discharge’ (less than Honorable) downgrade for this guys actions.
Poetic license, eh?

Seems like even an organisation as right-wing as the VFW disagrees:

[quote]WASHINGTON - The nation’s largest combat veterans group on Friday urged the military to “exercise a little common sense” and call off its investigation of a group of
Iraq war veterans who wore their uniforms during anti-war protests.

“Trying to hush up and punish fellow Americans for exercising the same democratic right we’re trying to instill in Iraq is not what we’re all about,” said Gary Kurpius, national commander of the 2.4 million-member Veterans of Foreign Wars.

“Someone in the Marine Corps needs to exercise a little common sense and put an end to this matter before it turns into a circus,” Kurpius said.

“We all know that people give up some individual rights when they join the military,” Kurpius said. “But these Marines went to war, did their duty, and were honorably discharged from the active roles. I may disagree with their message, but I will always defend their right to say it.”[/quote]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070602/

MikeN -
Why do you make the characterization that the VFW is “right-wing”?
As you are a Canadian, do you know anything, other than what you read on the internet about the VFW?

And yes, as I mentioned, there may be a ‘Freedom of Speech’ issue with the person in question.

By the way, this is a reversal of the VFW’s initial standing on this matter.

Well dude, if you can tell me how to change a thread title once someone has responded to the thread, I’d be real grateful. Far as I know, a mod has to do it.

[quote=“TC”]Vay -
SOP is the guy was marked as a “Class 4 - Ineligible for reenlistment” due to his bringing back the pistol from Iraq. A pistol is a weapon. A weapon is a controlled item according to the military. Your Grandfathers nazi jacket is completely irrelevant to this situation - but thanks for trying to change the context. [/quote]

You sure do fling accusations real easy man. I wasn’t trying to “change the context”. How many frickin’ military guys take souvenirs from combat? My grandfather’s JACKET was just an example of one of those. The fact that “regulations” differentiate between my case and yours doesn’t make a shite bit of difference. You think guys who risk their frickin’ necks care a whole hell of lot about regulations like the one you’re quoting??? You ever see “Band of Brothers”? (Given your bent, I can imagine you have.) Remember the guy who wanted SO BAD to get a Luger? Was he a jerkwad?

[quote]As to his background - it is very relevant to his actions as a tool for the IVAW group. He is just another tool used to preach class division and ‘class/political separation’…kinda like You Vay when you consistently refer to anyone dis-agreeing with you or calling you on your tabloid headlines as from the eeevvviiillll “Right.”

He’s a jerkwad for being used as a tool by this group, IVAW, and for his preaching this bs, IMO. [/quote]

Oh yeah, TC, anyone who hates the way the ideals of our country have been RUN INTO THE GROUND over the last eight years is “a tool”. Hilarious. No chance the guy like, has strong convictions or anything. Nah. We’re all just closet commies waiting for the chance to pull out a Che poster, put on some reggae and smoke up while we conduct a druidic ritual as we un-knowing work the will of our evil puppet-masters until they do us in like the “useful idiots” that Russian guy you posted about described.

As for “evil rightists”, mmm, well, yes I do think Rove, Cheney, Rupert Murdoch, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and Pat Robertson are “evil” as I would define it. Bush I would describe as simply arrogant and willfully close-minded – although as far as deceptiveness goes, he has certainly had his moments. Stating that Gonzales’ testimony before Congress – with its something like 47 'I can’t remember’s – reaffirmed his confidence in the man, or calling Cheney’s week-late statement about the (drunken) shooting of his friend “truly powerful” are two that pop to mind. OR that he “hadn’t been warned” about Katrina…

ANYWAY, as for you, no, I don’t get the sense that you’re “evil” per se – just blindly loyal and hence readily succeptible to misguidance.

[quote]Oh, and Vay…where did you get the ‘Dishonorable Discharge’ attribute from? Everything I’ve read so far looks towards a ‘General Discharge’ (less than Honorable) downgrade for this guys actions.
Poetic license, eh?[/quote]

Oh, Jesus God, you caught me. Well, sorry, but the quote I posted from the blog at the beginning of this thread does say “dishonorable discharge”. The actual news article I linked to below the blog says “less than honorable discharge”. Pardon the hell out of me for not knowing they were distinct. (I must be a mindless marionette of the Ivory Tower Elite, who, as asserted by another Forumosan, lacks critical reading skills to boot! Or are you going to go the route you usually do and call me a liar again?)

However, far as I can see, you are still just carefully dancing around the primary issue here: we have a SOLDIER (not a butt-ugly tie-dye-wearing mother with an annoying voice) who FOUGHT in IRAQ, and he’s outspoken against the war.

Bringing up his class background and his “souvenir” are exactly what you guys do EVERY time there’s someone who might bring the public’s attention to the fact that there are BRAVE, SELF-SACRIFICING PATRIOTS (not self-centered spoiled counter-culture elitists) who are opposed to what’s been happening in this country. When someone like this shows up - someone who puts another rent in the spell you guys have had the people under - your first question is All right, what have we GOT on this guy? How very Karl Rove of you.

The question is not CAN the military do what they did - obviously the can - the question is SHOULD they. It’s AMERICA, for Chrisssake!

And incidentally, besides being “a tool” of some manipulative commie mind-control organization, perhaps HERE’S the reason this man is against the war:

[quote]On April 29, a Delta Company patrol was responding to a tip at Al Sadr mosque, a short distance from its base. The soldiers saw men in the distance erecting barricades that they set ablaze, and the streets emptied out quickly. Then a militia, believed to be the Mahdi Army, began firing at them from rooftops and windows.

Sgt. Kevin O’Flarity, a squad leader, jumped into his Humvee to join his fellow soldiers, racing through abandoned Iraqi Army and police checkpoints to the battle site.

He and his squad maneuvered their Humvees through alleyways and side streets, firing back at an estimated 60 insurgents during a gun battle that raged for two and a half hours. A rocket-propelled grenade glanced off Sergeant O’Flarity’s Humvee, failing to penetrate.

When the battle was over, Delta Company learned that among the enemy dead were at least two Iraqi Army soldiers that American forces had helped train and arm.

[b]Captain Rogers admits, “The 29th was a watershed moment in a negative sense, because the Iraqi Army would not fight with us,” adding, “Some actually picked up weapons and fought against us.”

The battle changed the attitude among his soldiers toward the war, he said. “Before that fight, there were a few true believers.” Captain Rogers said. “After the 29th, I don’t think you’ll find a true believer in this unit.[/b] They’re paratroopers. There’s no question they’ll fulfill their mission. But they’re fighting now for pride in their unit, professionalism, loyalty to their fellow soldier and chain of command.”

To Sergeant O’Flarity, the Iraqi security forces are militias beholden to local leaders, not the Iraqi government. “Half of the Iraqi security forces are insurgents,” he said.

As for his views on the war, [b]Sergeant O’Flarity said, “I don’t believe we should be here in the middle of a civil war.”

“We’ve all lost friends over here,” he said. “Most of us don’t know what we’re fighting for anymore. We’re serving our country and friends, but the only reason we go out every day is for each other.”

“I don’t want any more of my guys to get hurt or die,” he continued. “If it was something I felt righteous about, maybe. But for this country and this conflict, no, it’s not worth it.”[/b] [/quote]

As Allies turn Foe, Disillusion Rises in some GI’s

Fact is that U.S. soldiers have brought back all sorts of stuff that they, technically, were not supposed to for ages now. Weapons have been clamped down on, but I knew someone stateside who had a whole machine gun, tripod and seat that came back with his grandpa after World War I. That’s an extreme example, but within my own family there are Japanese swords and knives, pistols, etc. There are plenty of other families with German Lugers and other weaponry. So, I’m not about to condemn this guy for being anything other than being a bit naive for thinking he was going to do what people of his father’s, grandfather’s and great-grandfather’s era were able to get away with doing when returning from war. I don’t see a foolish souvenir-taker as anywhere in the same class of awfulness as the Abu Ghraib people who took their photos and videos as “keepsakes” of their fun times.

Of course the mainstream Republicans absolutely ate up statements from Rush Limbaugh about how the Abu Ghraib abuses were nothing more than “hazing” and no worse than “a fraternity prank”. If the vet was “pro-war” I’m sure these hypocrites would be all over themselves making excuses for him.

Nothing more these guys hate than for a person who served in a war to come back and question it. Next, we’ll have the smearboaters coming out of the woodworks because there’s nothing the GOP loves better than to play hardball with any perceived critic.

My view is simple – I don’t care whether this guy is pro-war or anti-war, but he shouldn’t be penalized for expressing his viewpoint or, excessively, for the pistol.

[quote][quote]JD wrote:[quote]
That mean you’ll change it?[/quote]
[/quote]

Well dude, if you can tell me how to change a thread title once someone has responded to the thread, I’d be real grateful. Far as I know, a mod has to do it. [/quote]

Just go to the opening thread, your post and click on “edit.” Then you can edit the title.

But I have an itch that tells me I may not like what you change it to! :laughing:

[quote]
My view is simple – I don’t care whether this guy is pro-war or anti-war, but he shouldn’t be penalized for expressing his viewpoint or, excessively, for the pistol.[/quote]
Agree with the first part, but the weapons charge is serious, and the military is within their rights to reclassify his discharge because of it. That his loud mouth drew this attention to him when he already had a weapons charge against him sort of shows me how bright this guy is.

Additionally, I think it is disingenuous to downplay the rules he broke now because he seems to be the victim of bullying by the military, or to compare his crimes to the crimes of the folks involved in Abu Ghraib.

why was it a big deal about the pistol where in his native land you can buy machine guns along with your weekly supply of sliced bread and cans of soup???