Anybody want to open their own school?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
41

Everyone here has their own particular teaching skills on whatever level and with whatever age group. Some in a more professional capacity then others meaning attitude. I’m not here to judge or compare. Teaching anyone ESL can be a fun rewarding experience if done with passion and enthusiasm. Hey BC, who are you to judge anyone else or their teaching skills? Especially people you don’t even know. Don’t put me on a third world level. Have some respect.

I didn’t mention my teaching experience to come off as bragging but to simply make a point. But I do feel that 20 years here in Asia teaching ESL on a semi professional level does more than qualify me to teach kids. Teaching ESL is a relatively simple process that anyone with half a brain and some training can do.

I don’t think the system needs to be over regulated to satisfy the arrogance of a few foreigners. I often wonder about the Taiwan market because in Japan most of the foreigners support each other and work together, and aren’t caught up in the aggro competitiveness. Whereas here it’s a free for all. Oh my :sunglasses: Relax and keep it simple. Most of the teaching here is for them to build confidence and practice whatever skills they have while developing their fluency etc.

Anybody who does a private student is a freelancer. Worry about yourself and not what others are doing and you will be fine in life. :bow: Don’t take things too seriously. Oh, and by the way, I never feel guilty about taking peoples time or money because I work hard and they enjoy the lessons.

42

That’s fine then. The people I addressed last week, who had trouble asking wh- questions in the past tense, can do the actual teaching. You can just be someone to practise with.

If you’re not going to respect your self then nobody else is going to respect you. As BC says, morality starts with us.

What’s wrong with knowing your shit, being capable of explaining your shit, demonstrating your value, and expecting to be properly rewarded instead of treated like a potato? If you can’t do that then it doesn’t really matter whether you do it from home or in the safe legality of your own school. You’ll still be just a commodity and your customers will always squeeze the price down.

As was pointed out, students here are pretty well-behaved, and teaching can be fun and rewarding. There’s no need to fuck people over just because you had a bad time somewhere else. Your ability to make a high-value sale is affected by your attitude towards your customers. If you can’t cultivate an attitude of respect and understanding then the relationship is going to be adversarial, so they’ll be trying to get the service they want at the cheapest price and you’ll be dispensable. Learn to appreciate the lives your customers live, understand their problems, respect the reasons why even if you don’t agree with them, and then you can lead them to your way of thinking. That’s not only more financially rewarding, it’s more emotionally rewarding too.

You want to make more money and feel good about yourself, or you want to scrabble for cash and know that you’re a fraud? This is addressed to the world in general, not any particular poster.

While I’m here, can someone explain to me why some posters refer to ESL, and some refer to EFL? Is there a difference? Does it matter?

43

Let’s be clear. GIT doesn’t want ANY regulation. That doesn’t work in the airline industry, it doesn’t work in the food and beverage industry, and it doesn’t work in the education industry. Creating standards isn’t about arrogance. But I don’t think you really believe that either.

44

In my humble opinion English tutoring doesn’t need to be either standardized or regulated unless someone is criminally insane or a complete idiot. Asians want to enjoy learning from someone with a sense of humor and some structure to their method not necessarily a screened brainiac :sunglasses: :discodance:

45

Yes, but unfortunately, if GIT had his druthers, a kid’s teacher could be both, and no one would be the wiser until it was too late. Requiring registered schools to hire teachers with some standard level of education and a criminal record clearance from their home country is regulation, but it cuts down the chances of a teacher being a criminally insane idiot.

46

Umm have many foreigners been complete freaks in Taiwan and damaged kids brains? Even screened applicants can be friggen nuts, no? I think most schools do a pretty good job at routing out any undesirables. The MOE doesn’t have a clue.

47

I started my school 2 1/2 years ago. I chose to follow all the rules: fire proof walls, two exits from every classroom, no obstacles on the balcony etc for two reasons. Firstly, it’s the law. Secondly, there are children involved.

The second reason was the most important.

For those of you who fancy getting a slice of the 2,000NT an hour business English market I’m afraid to say you’re going to be disappointed. The big companies will only pay out to a licenced bushiban. They won’t send their empoyees to a potential firetrap. I guess the insurance won’t allow it.

Good luck.

48

I can only judge you on what you write here, that’s true. Why would I respect a stranger, based on a bunch of things I don’t agree with and find distasteful? I hope I haven’t been discourteous, but why do you expect respect? You are giving me attitude simply because I’ve disagreed with some of your viewpoints. I didn’t even read your posts, I was responding to Guy in Taiwan’s rant. He can take it, and give it back.

I stand by the third world comment. When you have put up a bunch of ads on tealit for your children’s education, come back and tell us all how it went.

How can someone make personal attacks about someone’s opinions? How else can a discussion forum work without debate on opinions.

49

ESL and ESOL usually refers to learners living in an English speaking country. Different needs, different materials, multilingual classes. EFL usually refers to English learning somewhere like Taiwan.

50

One of my professors actually would not allow me to use the term ESL because the current term is ELL. ESL refers to, of course, English as a Second Language, while ELL refers to English Language Learners. The difference is mostly political, but ELL encompasses students who already have two or more languages other than English. This better reflects the urban realities in many big cities in the States. Also, with ELL the emphasis is on the learner, not the content.

Ah, well, now I’ve introduced a third. Anyway, ELL is prefered around these parts.

51

One of my professors actually would not allow me to use the term ESL because the current term is ELL. ESL refers to, of course, English as a Second Language, while ELL refers to English Language Learners. The difference is mostly political, but ELL encompasses students who already have two or more languages other than English. This better reflects the urban realities in many big cities in the States. Also, with ELL the emphasis is on the learner, not the content.

Ah, well, now I’ve introduced a third. Anyway, ELL is prefered around these parts.[/quote]

Yup, I was referring to the British scene. Different, although not totally dissimilar issues and traditions.

[quote]
Ok go for it and judge as you will :slight_smile: I never use Tealit BTW. Maybe I’m also too opinionated. Sorry but maybe the third world would be a better place to live and teach anyway. Students might appreciate us more. haha[/quote]

I don’t need your permission to judge your words, if they are on a public site. Do what you like. You will anyway. Is English your first language?

52

Any other questions regarding starting your own school?

I have a fair few answers at my disposal.

53

[quote]Any other questions regarding starting your own school?
I have a fair few answers at my disposal.[/quote]How much as a percentage and cash does advertising cost you?
Do you do the accounting or send it out to be done?

54

[quote=“Okami”][quote]Any other questions regarding starting your own school?
I have a fair few answers at my disposal.[/quote]How much as a percentage and cash does advertising cost you?
Do you do the accounting or send it out to be done?[/quote]

That must have been why I failed. I’ve no idea what you you mean.

55

Maoman: Regulation is a joke in this country. It’s a joke everywhere else too if we get down to it. People are buying inferior Chinese products left and right that have dubious standards (in their environmental impact at least, if not in their human rights impact) or are outright rip-offs of other people’s intellectual property, despite knowing the risks or that they’re fakes that destroy their or their friends’ very livelihoods. People will buy the noose you’ll hang them with if you can sell it to them cheaply enough and market it as a “must have” item. This drives the competition to have to play by the same dirty rules. Or better yet, people just pirate what they like directly. We kid ourselves that everything is so regulated and “nice” when for probably 90% of what we consume, the lawlessness and savagery is merely out-sourced. We don’t have (many) sweatshops in the West because it’s “nicer” if we keep them out of sight, out of mind somewhere else. Taiwan is still a little rough around the edges, and it’s shocking for those of us from our sheltered malls to actually have to see how the world really works, even if it is much worse elsewhere. Really though, why don’t you go and see how many public schools in the West would conform to these high standards, especially the portable classrooms.

Supposedly everyone needs a licence here. Even those who have done the test often can’t drive because of the way they’re tested. If the government puts heavy regulations on foreign teachers here requiring everyone to have a criminal record check, operate in a licensed school with fire checks (which, of course, are not open to corruption at all…), and it drives the price up, are you seriously telling me that there won’t be a certain percentage of people who decide they want to make the conscious decision to circumvent all of that so they can pay a lower rate? This is about consumer choice. Whether I’m right or you’re right about regulation versus deregulation, the reality is that the government really can’t control anywhere near as much as you think it can and there’s an enormous black economy here. Let me guess though, you think the U.S. government can win/is winning the War on Drugs too, right? Because if you’re “morally” right, then economics and history will march victoriously into the sunset.

tomthorne: Why wouldn’t you just teach on-site? It would save plenty of companies the hassle of travel and it wouldn’t probably mean they could get more bang for their buck if they were paying a flat rate for a group to be trained on their premises. It wouldn’t have to be done on company time, though it could certainly be done immediately before or after work, and it would be convient and logistically more practical to bring one teacher to several students than several students to one teacher. Maybe the companies you dealt with were particularly concerned with following the rules or doing it off-site for whatever reason, but I know of companies that have done group lessons off-site and not at a licensed buxiban. I’ve also heard of people doing on-site training. Again, maybe they’re a relatively small percentage (I honestly wouldn’t know), but they do exist.

56

[quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“Okami”][quote]Any other questions regarding starting your own school?
I have a fair few answers at my disposal.[/quote]How much as a percentage and cash does advertising cost you?
Do you do the accounting or send it out to be done?[/quote]

That must have been why I failed. I’ve no idea what you you mean.[/quote]

I think he probably means how much do you spend on advertising as a percentage of your revenue and also as a raw figure? For example, if you took in 150,000NT/month and spent 15,000NT on advertising, then it would be 15,000NT, which would be 10%.

Likewise, who does your accounting, you or do you give it to an accountant to do for you (who then charges you for the service)?

57

[quote]tomthorne: Why wouldn’t you just teach on-site? It would save plenty of companies the hassle of travel and it wouldn’t probably mean they could get more bang for their buck if they were paying a flat rate for a group to be trained on their premises. It wouldn’t have to be done on company time, though it could certainly be done immediately before or after work, and it would be convient and logistically more practical to bring one teacher to several students than several students to one teacher. Maybe the companies you dealt with were particularly concerned with following the rules or doing it off-site for whatever reason, but I know of companies that have done group lessons off-site and not at a licensed buxiban. I’ve also heard of people doing on-site training. Again, maybe they’re a relatively small percentage (I honestly wouldn’t know), but they do exist.[/quote]The company wants to be able to write it off and not get taxed on it as profit, seems the best response. I had students that had a teacher supplied to them by the company for company classes, the accountant would pay the guy and then pay the taxman 20% gross withholding fee of his pay to keep everything on the up and up. It differs from company to company and accountant to accountant on how they would handle it. Some people try to follow the law and some people don’t. :wink:

58

Yeah, of course. It may be swings and roundabouts though because someone from a licensed place would need to charge a higher rate to cover overheads, which might negate the tax right off. Dunno. It seems more like it would be about following the law, though if they were concerned about such things, wouldn’t their company meeting room presumably follow all the government regulations, and so wouldn’t we be back to square one regarding the convenience of it all? Some companies probably wouldn’t ever be interested in doing it on-site, but I suspect that for many, when pitched in the right light (i.e. you could quell their concerns with quick responses to these kinds of questions), it would simply be about marketing.

59

[quote=“Loretta”]
Anyone else have stories, opinions…[/quote]

I owned (with a local partner) several schools for a while. Things went well and I made a few pennies from the endeavor.

I got out because.

1.) I set things up so well that in the end I didn’t have anything to do. I grew bored.

2.) Tired of playing nanny to FTs.

3.) My partner was going to have her daughter take over her side of the business (no experience + sense of entitlement + sense of knowing it all = me getting the fuck out of Dodge)

I burned out. But I left on good terms and I still talk to my ex-partner now and then and we have some projects on the table that we are talking about.

Now I’m teaching engineering at a middle school and I have never been happier at work.

Not sure how the market is in Taiwan now but I would expect it to be poor. When I cashed out I believed that there were too many schools chasing too few students. Don’t know if that is still the case but I would suspect so. If the Taiwanese economy is in the shithole then I would expect the ELL market is even poorer.

The foreigners that have small schools and are built on said foreigner’s reputation should, for the most part, be fine.

I had always thought that someday the Taiwanese buxiban owners would wise up and cut costs by finding qualified English speakers from non-native English speaking countries. Teachers from, lets say, Manila? 200nt per hour?

Remember, buxibans are a business…and profit is king. All this baloney from teachers about them being exploited is just pure horseshit. They seem to think that the schools should be some sort of a profit sharing venture. Of course, onwers should treat teachers fairly plus a little more but when teachers start to think that the whole school is dependent on them then that’s about the time they should start looking for a new job. They can always be replaced.

It’s all about the money. Enough money to rub all over your body. Enough money to set up a temple to worship it. Enough money to full your living room and wallow in it. It’s all about the money…

60

I think I have to agree with Jimi about the regulation.

Let’s face it, if the government decided to tighten up then the hoops to jump through would be more numerous and probably more absurd, but it’s unlikely that the quality of teaching would improve. And actually, for all my bitching about local teachers recently, I believe that the ‘system’ itself is not all that bad.

The problem is the parents, more precisely the problem is that some people can’t accept that their precious offspring are not really cut out to be doctors or lawyers. Everybody is so focused on pushing little precious to the top of the heap that they don’t notice that all of little precious’ friends are also scrabbling to get there, with the result that the whole heap moves slightly but the same kids are at the top. Little precious is now forced to work fourteen hours a day just to be mediocre.

If you want to be a great teacher who really makes a difference to people’s lives then you have to educate the parents.

If, on the other hand, you just want to get rich, then your problem is that the market is largely only concerned with price, which puts you in a race to the bottom. And if your understanding of education is different from that of the customers, the parents decribed above, then they won’t buy from you. So you have to cater for their idiocy, while competing on price with everyone else. This is a recipe for disaster whether your focus is education or money.

If you want to make more money then you have to persuade people to buy something different, something unique that has more value, but that requires you to educate the customer.

Whether you want more money, better educational outcomes, or both, you have to educate the customer about what’s best before you try and actually teach them English. My previous comment is simply a truth that any good salesperson will attest to: if you don’t care about and respect your customers then they will sense that and your ability to make the sale will be reduced.

Having a licensed operation might be a first step in raising your credibility rating, which is the starting point for making a sale regardless of whether you want to get them into the classroom for your own good or for theirs. On the other hand, it might also categorise you as a service provider rather than a high-value expert. This is especially true if the regulatory framework issuing your license is poorly-informed or poorly understood by the customers.

I do in-company classes for MNC’s and, currently, one government department. In the past I have also been paid by the MoE to teach classes at various places, plus I’ve taught classes at three different universities and a couple of government senior high schools this year alone. Rates vary somewhat, and everyone has their own interpretation of the tax regulations and legalities. But I’m not running a legal school and have never had a criminal background check. So I guess that means Maoman has to call the cops and send them around to all those big-name institutions.

I’d really like to try and get groups of students together for classes of my own, but need a venue. In fact, you need a venue for customers to come in and get educated before they buy anything. Some kind of a school really becomes a pre-requisite for this kind of thing, legal or otherwise. (Anyone know of affordable classrooms for rent?)

I was interested in knowing more about Tom’s place and other people’s experiences for this reason. Jimi’s alternative approach is also relevant, even though I don’t really agree with him.

I guess my question is “is taking over or opening a school the logical progression from freelancing?”

It also leads to a seperate issue of how effective the regulation is, how relevant it is, and how much we are justified in dodging it.