Anybody want to open their own school?

[quote=“Puppet”]I’m not sure I agree with this. If you talk to parents of your students, you’ll realize a lot of them want English for the reasons you would assume someone would study a foreign language (want to enable them to communicate to a more diverse group of people, want them to be prepared for a more global economy, their child enjoys learning English, etc.).[/quote]I find most parents to be the most untrustworthy useless annoying drags of teaching. It’s like you are trying to defuse a bomb while someone is chatting away about how to incorrectly defuse a bomb in your ear. “Please teach my child more, but don’t stress him out” is a common attitude that’s if they care. Most of the can’t be bothered, especially after long days at work and the Taiwanese version of Idol on TV.

[quote=“Puppet”]Most parents just assume that the tests are what determines whether someone has learned a language. IOW, they want the student to know the language, but they have no way of measuring that minus a test. Educating parents about what it really takes to learn a language effectively takes a lot of work and most buxiban owners don’t care enough to do that. It’s much easier to just have a set of books that have colorful pictures that were cheap and give them a syllabus that accomplishes nothing other than show you are moving through the material faster than anyone else.[/quote]That’s because tests are the end all be all in Taiwanese education. Nothing else matters, everything is for the tests. Parents who feel differently get private tutors or ask their kid’s school for more time like a few at my school do. Then you have the problem that a lot of your students have neither the cognitive ability for a second language, the urge to learn a second language, and/or are too burnt out to bother with any class. You need colorful books just to get their interest into opening the book. Quite a few students at my school actually do their English homework at the school because once they get home it’s computer games or TV and nothing else.

[quote=“Puppet”]As a teacher, I have been in constant communication with my parents, through emails or conferences when they want them. I gladly meet with them after school hours if they have questions and want a meeting. I e-mail them updates or ideas I have that I will do to keep their child moving forward. If a student is falling behind, I take the time to set up goals with the parents and provide a way to measure when they achieve those goals. It’s actually something that has caused me a lot of grief from the school owners. It’s easier for them to just say to the parents, “This is what is on the next page of the book…he’ll catch up eventually” than it is to have someone who actually plans out things the students need and works on them.[/quote]I know you take this seriously, but the boss is offering them hamburger prices for for the promise of steak service and you are giving them Wagyu beef when they would settle for you serving dog food dressed up as meatloaf. If(God forbid) anything were to happen to you they would rip your boss/manager up 24/7 in order to get a better deal and their ass licked. Planning in Taiwan? :roflmao:

[quote=“Puppet”]I think the industry standard is the way it is not because of the parents as much as it is the lack of options. Most schools seem to be chosen out of convenience or cost as opposed to curriculum. I don’t blame the parents in this situation. After visiting a few schools, I bet they see nothing different and eventually realize what we know ~ most are just the same. They just don’t realize how much crap they tend to be filled with.[/quote]Bingo you hit the nail on the head. Basically everyone at my school knows someone else and they are all buddies and friends. Despite the anchingban teachers being harpies with the child ed skills of Joan Crawford(“Mommy Dearest” anyone?) they seem to get the job done in their way and it seems to be the only way they know how. I find it shocking/unbelievable that my boss swears up and down that the parents are unable to help their children with any of their homework.

At the end of the day tests are everything and we aren’t going to change that. We can engage in all the education romanticism that infects a great many of us, but between ennui and cognitive inability most kids just aren’t going to learn English with the methods provided. At the end of the day I get to be the guy who gives them a break in an otherwise boring day cooped up in a building with no play time or I’m the guy who hammers a point home to pass a test(GEPT) and if I’m really lucky I get to be both in the same class.

That’s all that matters in Taiwan. The sooner you accept that, the easier it will be…[/quote]

Not quite. Tests and money. Cheaper is ALWAYS better in Taiwan.[/quote]

I was talking about why the parents send the kids to buxibans. However, money is definitely a major factor in their decision when picking a school.

Okami, it’s been a while since I’ve seen you. We’ll have to catch up with dinner sometime and hash this out. For now…let me reply here.

I think that’s a fantastic attitude for a parent to have. Why should learning be stressful? Just because that’s what they are used to? Learning should be work. Learning should be thoughtful. Learning should push you farther. It should not be stressful, but enjoyable and rewarding in the end.

I have found with horrible parental advice, I have to really know what my methodology is. I also have to understand what the parent’s ideas are. I have to really know where they are coming from and why they think their idea is a good one.

That’s the same problem no matter where you teach, but it is especially difficult here. Still, I do not see it big of a problem as people claim it to be. Usually, it’s a case of a Chinese Teacher not having the knowledge of confidence the address the issue realistically (they become a “yes man”). Quite often, by the time it gets to the foreign teacher, it’s a big mess. My parents know now to ask to have a conference with me personally rather than go through the CT. The CT might need to be there to help translate, but I am the one they want to talk to.

So there ARE those parents out there that do care differently. The question, really, is how many are there? From my experience, it has been the majority once they are actually taught how that can happen in a classroom setting.

I have not come across that problem, barring obvious LDs. I had one child who was Autistic. That’s an obvious “should not be in this particular class” situation.

Then the problem has to be diagnosed. I know my limits in this area. If it’s levels 1-4, I can work on that. If it’s the teenage years or “almost” teenage years, I write it off as something I can’t do and just do a clown act to entertain myself and just make sure I make my $.

The idea of “burnt out with school” is a strange concept to me since it wasn’t really a part of my education until I was in Junior High and switched schools. I think the biggest problem is that the books, materials, and methods used are not figured into the developmental level of the child. This is true starting all the way back through preschool up through Junior High (as high as I have taught) at every school I have worked at. When the school’s materials do not meet the developmental needs of the student, the child gets bored quite easily. Provide the students with things that match with their developmental level and you don’t really run into the problem of getting burned out.

Not a big fan of homework overall, but even the homework given needs to be reworked in quite a few cases. I can only speak about what I see…I don’t have to check homework, thankfully.

The flip side of that is that my goal is NOT to teach English in a buxiban for the rest of my life. I would much rather be teaching in America, but feel the skills I am learning here are to help me become a better teacher once I get back home. In the meantime, my goal is to make sure my students get what they need and I learn how to help them. I just simply would not be happy unless I could do that in my job.

That’s my boss’s problem…not mine. :thumbsup:

They still want the English done well, though. That requires re-educating them about what that means.

I don’t do the standard methods provided…and the parents love that fact. As you know, I come from a Montessori background, so it might be that I am more used to presenting a completely different method of education to parents than what most are. I have had a lot of success presenting the different ideas to parents and having good results in the classroom with them.

Matt

Maybe you need to update your teaching methods, if you believe that there are actually students (without true physical damage to the brain, I mean) who lack the cognitive ability to learn a second language.

EVERY HUMAN BEING can acquire a second language (or a third, fourth…etc.) The only thing preventing most people from doing it is the artificial constraints of the educational system they find themselves in. But any kid who speaks a first language fluently can speak ten.

Sorry, but the biggest single difference I see every day between teachers who base their instruction on comprehensible input and those who still teach the communicative method is their attitude toward the students. The communicative method teachers are the ones who are bitching in the faculty room about how “kids today don’t work” and “the students are so stupid and irresponsible”. The CI teachers are the ones who are boring each other with stories of what their kids said in class in the target language. Once you stop being the person stuffing the goose with grammar rules, and concentrate on helping the students acquire the language, your attitude toward students changes dramatically. For us, it is “I did not provide enough input on that structure” or “The student has not yet acquired that structure fully.” It is NEVER “the kid doesn’t have the cognitive ability to learn a language.” Ridiculous. Sorry, but that actually offends me, coming from someone considered to be a professional teacher of language.

:fume: :fume: :fume:

Okami: It can be a bit “Shaun of the Dead” at times. I feel your pain.

I have a different perspective than most on the ‘tests vs. actually learning English issue.’ I think that if a teacher applied modern methods to teaching English in Taiwan, and did not focus on testing, in the long run his/her students would do better on the standardized tests than the average Taiwanese student.
I’ve met Taiwanese students who have studied English for 10 years who couldn’t answer questions like “What’s your name?” I’ve met kids who’ve studied English at a buxiban for two years, two hours a day, who you would swear were complete beginners. I’m sure a foreign teacher who had some insight into teaching and had the freedom to use modern methods could get better results than that.
I also think of my own experience teaching English at a university in China. My class was the lowest in the hierarchy at this place, being full of ‘peasants who failed the college entrance exam.’ I, the only foreigner, was considered little more than a clown hired for diversion. But after 6 months, when all the students in the university took the standardized English test, my class had the best results. The other teachers were absolutely stunned: foreign monkey teacher, idiot peasant students, how could their results be better than ours?
I think of my own experience learning French. I just studied the language, using the language - I didn’t spend all my time trying to figure out how to pass the test, and my teachers did not spend 95% of class time using English to explain how to pass the test. Nevertheless, when I finally did take a standardized test, I did very well on it - because I actually knew the language.

It almost sounds like it could have been on the front page of some trashy supermarket checkout tabloid:

Foreign monkey teacher and idiot peasant students give birth to high test results. University specialists lack explanation. Also in this edition: Chinese English speaker correctly conjugates third person singular verbs.

Great comments everyone! Please keep going!

I certainly see the “tests and money” attitudes. And to round it out, I would say that trust is also a major issue as others have pointed out, wherein cram school owners promise steak at hamburger prices. Parents do believe the (Taiwanese) cram school owner … But what about trusting the teacher? Realistically, how many teachers are here long enough to see the results of their teaching?

I do agree that communication with parents is the bottom line, but the intrigues revolving around that are mighty formidable! And that’s another topic!

So, or so far, I see there are 4 main issues: tests, tuition fees, school owner control and teacher ability.

Without further discussion (and it would help, but …), here’s what I think the issue(s) all get down to:

As foreigners, we have to decide how far to impose our values.

Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we think tests are not the be-all and end-all?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say that you have to pay more for better quality (that we can maybe deliver)?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we know how to teach better than the system an owner demands that we follow?
Are we arrogant or power-seeking when we say we are superior in ability?

[quote=“Puppet”]I think that’s a fantastic attitude for a parent to have. Why should learning be stressful? Just because that’s what they are used to? Learning should be work. Learning should be thoughtful. Learning should push you farther. It should not be stressful, but enjoyable and rewarding in the end.[/quote]I don’t when it is combined with an overindulgent parent. Learning will be stressful at times as the student is trying to please his teacher and/or parent and feels the need to work hard. Some kids just don’t want to learn.

[quote=“Puppet”]So there ARE those parents out there that do care differently. The question, really, is how many are there? From my experience, it has been the majority once they are actually taught how that can happen in a classroom setting.[/quote]I find them to be a small minority. Most balk when they see how much it would cost.

I should phrase the cognitive ability part a little better. Most kids will not learn English with less than 5 hours instruction a week and no input from their environment outside of class. Some kids will learn to speak a second language incredibly fast, while most struggle. Smarts count for a lot in class.

[quote=“Puppet”]The idea of “burnt out with school” is a strange concept to me since it wasn’t really a part of my education until I was in Junior High and switched schools. I think the biggest problem is that the books, materials, and methods used are not figured into the developmental level of the child. This is true starting all the way back through preschool up through Junior High (as high as I have taught) at every school I have worked at. When the school’s materials do not meet the developmental needs of the student, the child gets bored quite easily. Provide the students with things that match with their developmental level and you don’t really run into the problem of getting burned out.[/quote]I’ve dealt with students beat so often, pampered so much, or just ground down by the stress of school that they have just given up. Ever tried to lift a fourth grader’s fully loaded backpack? There’s a very good reason why that thing has wheels. That’s before you see kids who are obviously in the wrong class, but the parent or teacher wants to save face and not move them.

[quote=“Puppet”]Not a big fan of homework overall, but even the homework given needs to be reworked in quite a few cases. I can only speak about what I see…I don’t have to check homework, thankfully.[/quote]I’m a really big fan of homework that is reviewed in class, which you almost never see in Taiwan. :doh: I actually grade a lot of homework at my school.

I PM’d you about dinner.

[quote=“bababa”]I also think of my own experience teaching English at a university in China. My class was the lowest in the hierarchy at this place, being full of ‘peasants who failed the college entrance exam.’ I, the only foreigner, was considered little more than a clown hired for diversion. But after 6 months, when all the students in the university took the standardized English test, my class had the best results. The other teachers were absolutely stunned: foreign monkey teacher, idiot peasant students, how could their results be better than ours?[/quote]I’m shocked they didn’t just change the grades around. I bet your coworkers hated you after that.

And I still say, think about radically changing your teaching methodology. “Smarts” do not distinguish human beings as to their ability to acquire a language, given what the brain needs to acquire it. “Smarts” come into play only when language classes are really linguistics classes – memorize this rule, now apply it using this group of words. Manipulate the data, kids! Of course in Taiwan, with the emphasis on testing that leans so heavily on filling in the blanks, that’s what is valued. But in terms of a kid truly acquiring English and being able to use it – there’s no reason you can’t do that in 5 hours a week, with or without outside input (in Taiwan, preferably “without”, a lot of the time… :aiyo: )

[quote]Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we think tests are not the be-all and end-all?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say that you have to pay more for better quality (that we can maybe deliver)?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we know how to teach better than the system an owner demands that we follow?
Are we arrogant or power-seeking when we say we are superior in ability?
[/quote]
Possibly. Its a bit besides the point though, as your employers absolutely do not give a shit about your opinion. They’ve most likely been in the business for far longer than you and know exactly what they want. You are there to do one thing, and your attitude toward it is of utterly no consequence. Don’t like it? Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out. You’re as easily replaced as an empty toilet roll, in most owners’ eyes.

[quote=“sandman”][quote]Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we think tests are not the be-all and end-all?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say that you have to pay more for better quality (that we can maybe deliver)?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we know how to teach better than the system an owner demands that we follow?
Are we arrogant or power-seeking when we say we are superior in ability?
[/quote]
Possibly. Its a bit besides the point though, as your employers absolutely do not give a shit about your opinion. They’ve most likely been in the business for far longer than you and know exactly what they want. You are there to do one thing, and your attitude toward it is of utterly no consequence. Don’t like it? Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out. You’re as easily replaced as an empty toilet roll, in most owners’ eyes.[/quote]
This. Foreign teachers think they can change the system for the better. The system is what it wants to be and Taiwanese won’t care much what a 洋鬼子 has to say about their English buxiban systems.

[quote=“XinBiDe”][quote=“sandman”][quote]Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we think tests are not the be-all and end-all?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say that you have to pay more for better quality (that we can maybe deliver)?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we know how to teach better than the system an owner demands that we follow?
Are we arrogant or power-seeking when we say we are superior in ability?
[/quote]
Possibly. Its a bit besides the point though, as your employers absolutely do not give a shit about your opinion. They’ve most likely been in the business for far longer than you and know exactly what they want. You are there to do one thing, and your attitude toward it is of utterly no consequence. Don’t like it? Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out. You’re as easily replaced as an empty toilet roll, in most owners’ eyes.[/quote]
This. Foreign teachers think they can change the system for the better. The system is what it wants to be and Taiwanese won’t care much what a 洋鬼子 has to say about their English buxiban systems.[/quote]

Ya, but who gives a shit? I’m here to teach English well. If they don’t like that they can kiss my ass. Excuse my French.

IYouThem: Yet the irony is that Finland, which has a pretty well opposite approach to education as Taiwan, consistently ranks as having the best education system by independent observers/judges. Maybe we are applying our Western standards to Taiwan, but when the average street urchin in a country like Cambodia can speak better English (and three other languages to boot) than the average kid in Taiwan who has been grinding through years of elementary school and buxiban English classes, you have to wonder what the hell is going on and whether they are indeed getting value for their time and money. It may sound kind of crass and ridiculous to say this, but if Taiwanese parents wanted their kids to learn English really well, they’d be better off dumping them outside of Angkor Wat with a handful of bracelets and nothing else rather than putting them through buxiban classes.

It does mate, it does! But it probably felt good to say it!

Always glad to be of service.

The only part I would disagree on this seems to be the GEPT. From everything I can understand, it seems the GEPT was designed specifically to meet the needs of the horrible way they teach English here. It’s worthless, but marketed well.

[quote=“IYouThem”]
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we think tests are not the be-all and end-all?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say that you have to pay more for better quality (that we can maybe deliver)?
Are we imposing Western sensibilities when we say we know how to teach better than the system an owner demands that we follow?
Are we arrogant or power-seeking when we say we are superior in ability?[/quote]

If I go back to my original point, I don’t think it’s imposing Western values. My original point is that if you talk to parents and actually discuss these ideas, they’re more likely than not to agree with you. Even if the test is the end result, the question boils down to, “Is knowing the language well enough to use it helpful for a test?” most parents would agree that it’s probably the most basic thing that would be helpful. They just don’t think of it that way.

That’s not to say that there aren’t irrational people out there, too. God knows the country is full of them. (Not that it’s better back home!) The problem is the squeaky wheel gets the oil and the illogical ones here in Taiwan are squeakier than a mouse orgy.

Then I see a catch-22. I actually push the blame back to the school at that point. If the students do not want to learn at all, the school is obviously not meeting their needs. From experience, this should happen only in the upper grades when the kids are so school-damaged from being in a horrible learning environment for years.

[quote=“Okami”]I find them to be a small minority. Most balk when they see how much it would cost.

I should phrase the cognitive ability part a little better. Most kids will not learn English with less than 5 hours instruction a week and no input from their environment outside of class. Some kids will learn to speak a second language incredibly fast, while most struggle. Smarts count for a lot in class.[/quote]

But even then, EVERY class will need differentiated instruction. One of the easiest things I tell teachers to look into all the time is Bloom’s Taxonomy. With a good understanding of that, you can have students in the same class who are at completely different levels and still see how to make them improve (which is what our ultimate goal should be…not getting to a specific point, but everyone improving). If anyone’s unfamiliar with it, take a quick look at this picture that shows the levels:
uwf.edu/cutla/images/bloom_taxonomy.jpg

So you might have one student who you can ask questions on the bottom level of knowledge/remembering. “What color was the dog?” “Is the person a boy or a girl?” (Think of how many English curriculum books in Taiwan are based off ONLY this level of thinking. It’s scary). At the same time, you can ask the next kid who has a lot more ability a question such as, “If the dog did not come, how else could the girl get help?” That requires a lot more thinking about the situation, other clues from the story, and past experiences. Suddenly, from the same story, that kid who is at a very basic level is getting the interaction he or she needs. The other child who would be bored with those questions gets a much higher and challenging level. Now everyone in the class is challenged and you can move students through the next level slowly (which will actually be quickly once you really get it going).

That diagram won’t tell you a lot and it’s obviously not the only tool in the toolbox, but there are a ton of tools you can use in the current systems that doesn’t have to mess very much with the curriculum unless the curriculum is an utter disaster. That’s a different story all together.

But the students are coming into a totally different environment at your school. That’s the opportunity we have. As teachers, we’re limited. We can’t set up a classroom full of engaging materials, but we certainly have to be a more appropriate learning environment than their public schools are…which isn’t hard from what I have seen.

I deleted the homework thing. Another thread, another time perhaps. haha. Just didn’t want to get too far off subject.

[quote]
I PM’d you about dinner. [/quote] Got it.

We’re always glad to have an Aussie who can say crass and ridiculous things on the forum! It reminds us of why we sent our prisoners there.