Are all businesspersons inherently dishonest?

Work Working in Taiwan
1

Just curious.

I had one boss who gave me a paycheck that was way short, so I confronted her about it and she flat-out lied about our agreement. I won’t go into the details but it was totally obvious she was wrong, so I told her unless I received the correct pay I would not work another day. She relented (and slinked about the office avoiding me after that :slight_smile: ).

I told one of my students in that class (a very bright local girl who was preparing to head to the US for her MBA) what had happened and she was embarrassed. She was embarrassed, she said, that so many Taiwanese business people act that way – that lying, cheating and stealing are the rule, not the exception (her words, not mine).

Later I worked for the biggest law firm in Taiwan. Anyone who’s worked there or has dealt with them knows they are pure evil. :smiling_imp: Of course all lawyers have a reputation for being dishonest shysters, but these guys took it to a new level (they once had a judgment entered against them for $20 million in the US for screwing over one of their partners who opened an office for them there).

Presently the law firm I work for represents a local company whose head has been indicted for all kinds of scummy fraudulent tactics. Of course he’s guilty. He’s a lying, dishonest, thieving bastard and I won’t weep if they send him to the slammer. The former head of the same company was also indicted previously for different charges and from what I’ve heard, he’s guilty too.

As for my own boss, I’ve always thought he’s a little better than the rest of the local business people, but today. . . well, turns out he too is willing to lie to gain a little something more. It doesn’t have to be that way – I am honest. An honest lawyer! Seriously. I do not pad my bills and do not lie to clients or colleagues. I believe honesty and integrity are extremely valuable character traits and once you lie a little here or there, people will catch on to you and will know that you are moral scum.

Yes, I know every country has its share of corporate fraud and scandals, but in this country underhanded dishonest tactics seem to be SOP. Would you agree? Or does Taiwan/China take it to a different level?

2

I met one of my bosses parents – both of them – so they’re not all bastards.

3

MT,

You just dont understand chinese culture.

4

Damnit, you beat me to it panda!!! :raspberry:

5

Prior to moving here, I have done business with a numer of Taiwanese companies. This extended over a period of 10 - 11 years. Other than a few normal glitches there was virtually no problems. Deals made, contracts honored, money paid, etc. - normal stuff.

However, having now resided on the island, I do get a slightly different…“vibe” as it were…from some of the business people I come in contact with. Where once discussions were fairly forthright, I now experience a bit of"weaseling", for want of a better term - maybe ‘elusiveness or open-ended’ is more appropriate.

No real problems yet - just a noticed difference.

6

I have the experienced that business people all over the world are exactly the same when it comes to money. The difference lies in

  1. legal framework of the respective country, law enforcement (how easy is it to cheat and get away with it)
  2. the way people try to cheat you and the way they react when cheated, cultural difference

Honest business people are honest for one reason only, the assume that their clients, partners etc appreciate that and come back for more business. Chinese people tend to go for the quick buck, while some western business men have more of a long term strategy.

That has in my opinion to do with what people expect from the future. When people grow up in society where everybody is afraid that the commies will invade at any time, there is no logic behind long term business plans.

7

I’ve been struggling with this very issue. I took a posting last year because I was moved by the laoban’s passion and vision. When a good (Taiwanese) friend joined our team, I was suddenly privy to all the underhanded goings on. Every (and I mean EVERY) business that has extended him credit is now making daily phone calls to try and retrieve their debt. The guy hides behind new names and identities and refuses to deal with anyone with a justifiable claim to payment. Employees that leave can kiss any money owed them goodbye. He still owes me for 2 weeks and when I asked his “CEO” about it, she promised to get back to me the next day with an answer. That was 2 weeks ago.

Apparently, this guy did the same thing a few years ago. He screwed a bunch of people into believing in him and when he stuffed his pockets full, took off to Shanghai, leaving his staff to deal with the fallout.

Once I found out the truth about this guy, I left. The last month or so has had me in a quandry. I aspire to more than teaching, but fear that any partnership with a local businessman will only lead to me killing him. (Hyberbole alert)

I am sick and tired of thinking I have found roots with a company only to have to yank them up again before long.

I take some solace in the knowledge that, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, I will not be lacking when weighed and measured.

Does honour exist amongst businesspeople?

8

[quote=“Rupert Pupkin”]

Does honour exist among these people?[/quote]

Seems as if it doesn’t because it was all set up by the Original Ganster himself…

9

Back in the good old days of imperial China, you were looked down upon if you were a member of the “merchant class” (businessmen). They were thought to be unscrupulous, dishonest, and only cared about money … oh, how things have changed …

I have yet to have a boss that I respected in Taiwan, so now I work part-time in a research facility (government-run), so there is no pressure to make money, and then do my own things on the side. I will never, ever work for another Taiwanese business again.

10

Seems as if it doesn’t because it was all set up by the Original Ganster himself…
[/quote]
Little OG Wannabe popping the paint bag…

11

Dunno…the last individual I “worked” for in Taiwan was not Taiwanese, yet there are evidently many who might say “Sam” fit the description fairly well…could it be something in the water?

12

I think it’s more of a cultural case of “Monkey see, Monkey do.”

My wife and I are trying very VERY hard to keep our new school honest. It is not easy. Every single day an opportunity to screw someone over presents itself to us. So far so good. But it is not easy.

“Everyone” does it because “everyone else” does it and no one wants to look like the sucker at the table.

I have seen some of the most honorable people I’ve ever met, family in fact, become Darth Vader when they switch into the business mode.

Are the people bad? Inherently? No.

Is the system completely corrupt and deranged? I’d say yes. Does the system corrupt the person? Maybe, over time.

Hate the hate, not the criminal.

13

Biggest con man I ever met here was an American.

14

Here’s another example:

Our law firm represents a company that manufactures certain electronic devices that incorporate technology patented by others – a very common situation. In such a case, the proper thing to do is to enter into patent licensing agreements with those other parties, giving the manufacturer the right to use the other party’s technology in the devices that it manufactures in exchange for a certain amount of royalties paid to the patent owner per device manufactured and sold. That’s how it’s supposed to work. Additionally, the patent license agreement will specify that the manufacturer must provide periodic reports to the patent owner (often quarterly) stating how many units were manufactured and paying royalties based on that figure. It’s sort of an honor system, but the patent owner also has the right to audit the manufacturer’s books if it wants, and can check other sources, to see if the manufacturer is lying.

Well, our client doesn’t want to do it that way – the honest way. Instead, our client was manufacturing lots of products for years using other company’s patents and technology without speaking with them at all, without entering into licensing agreements with them, and without paying them royalties for use of their technology. In other words it was stealing their intellectual property. Until it got caught. Eventually all the other companies found out and our client had to come clean, enter into licensing agreements with the other parties and start paying them royalties.

In such a situation, prior to signing the agreement and moving forward, the patent owner will always want to first resolve the issue of how much is owed for the past uses that were not reported, so they will demand that the manufacturer give an accurate report of how many of each model product it manufactured in the past using the patented technology. The parties will then negotiate till they agree on the past use figure and decide upon a sum that must be paid for such past uses. It has been my job to act as liaison between the two parties in some such discussions and, frankly, it’s a little embarassing at times.

Me: Our client informs me that it manufactured 1,534 units last year.

Patent Owner: That can’t possibly be true. We have information concerning just one shipment alone that was in excess of 100,000 units and other information suggesting the actual figure is close to 500,000.

Me: I don’t know anything about that. Maybe there’s a mistake. Can you tell me who provided that information, etc.

I’ve been through this over and over and over. For this client, especially, lying and stealing are their SOP. Maybe in the short run it will save them some dough, but I can’t see how one can run a business in the long run through such tactics. I would think eventually everyone will know you are lying scum and they will refuse to do business with you. :s

But, maybe I’m just not a savvy enough businessman.

15

[quote=“Mother Theresa”] a) I would think eventually everyone will know you are lying scum and they will refuse to do business with you. :s

b) But, maybe I’m just not a savvy enough businessman.[/quote]

a) Nah, I think they would think, “Wow, sucks to be you. You got caught. Better luck next time.”

As for part b…maybe I’m not either. :frowning:

16

Methinks it’s a case of morals and ethics.

The Sun newspaper in England (bastion of morals that it is) had two financial reporters a while age who hyped companies on it’s stock tip pages. These reporters owned large numbers of shares of the companies they hyped. They then sold them when their readers all bought them.

They did nothing illegal, but definitely a tad iffy moral wise.

I asked some Taiwanese friends their opinions on this situation and they overwhelmingly said ‘smart people’ ‘good thinking’ etc.

Draw your own conclusions.

17

In Taiwan they don’t have business ethics or ethics generally.

Watch the people in Taiwan, they try to get away with so many things, if they ain’t caught than the other is the dumb fart, they are the smart arses they think. :astonished:
Basically they don’t care and if caught they do as if their nose bleeds. :s

18

Yes, I’ve felt the same way growing up in Taipei. There’s no hope in the near future.

19

That doesn’t sound much different from the corridors of power in China. If you’re an official, and you aren’t “making” money, it means you can’t hack it, if you are, you have “ben si”(?).

20

I originally came here with a one year plan. I am a stubborn cow who has always materialized my goals, and has received and given utter respect for people of most any sort, including bosses. It is now three years later and I am still here. This is mostly due to corrupt bosses who have stabbed me in the back over and over again. I could write prolific documentaries, but unfortunately I work so much now, to make up for the fiascos and catch up the time and loss of money and so much more, that I simply don’t have the time and energy to do it justice. In 90% of my experiences, my bosses in Taiwan have been the most uncooperative, childish, ungracious, degrading, malicious, demeaning, cheating, rude, counter-productive, unprogressive, disorganized, illogical, downright greedy, mind-fucking, unprofessional, inconsiderate, selfish, uncompassionate, immoral, unethical, short sighted hosts/business people I have ever come across. A right human disgrace, full of games I am not interested in wasting any more of my time, health, energy, money and basic security, to play; that I have totally lost respect for. It makes my stomach turn in utter disgust. I don’t vote ‘yes’ to all individual cases, but as a generally tolerated cultural practice; my vote is an absolute yes.