Are housepets supposed to make people more human?

[Mr_PBH]

[quote=“Stray Dog”]I have met more wonderful people than probably any of you, but I still feel that, at least some of the time, the presence of a non-human animal can be preferable to that of a human one.

Yes, but I could just as easily say that not being around ANY human or animal is preferable at times.

[quote]Many people fail to make that certain connection with the animal in their charge[/quote];
What is this connection? Sorry, but it sounds a bit alien to me. What you might end up calling unconditional love I might end up calling being fitted permantantly into the animal’s behavioral patterns, in a positive, “let’s not bite the hand that feeds me” manner.

[quote]they treat him or her like an accessory, or a toy, as something nice to have around, or even as something to care for[/quote].
Sure, well some people do that with their spouses.

But it’s not until you learn to truly appreciate what you have there, what a fantastic friendship you have waiting to develop, what an unquestioning and loyal partnership there is to be made, and what an incredibly intelligent and lovable being that dog or cat (or other animal) can be, that you can really understand what you have been missing.

Again, a bit alien to me. What’s there to appreciate that I do not already see? She stalks bugs, plays housesoccer, tears around the house and fluffs her tail out, curls up and naps on me, etc, all the regular cat stuff, but sorry brother, I don’t get any “unquestioning and loyal partnership” from my cat.

She’s a cat. Don’t you think this is a bit of a trick? Making yourself believe in the loyalty of an animal? Is this desire a psychological offshoot of being let down by someone during childhood or something?

Not everyone can do this (or wants to), but I really do believe that you are missing out on something very special and rewarding if you fail to make that easy-to-make connection with the non-human animal in your home.

Sounds kind of cultish to me there Sean. “Some people can’t do it, but it’s really great.” lol What if I have made the connection yet because I have other emotional connections to human animals that the non human animal connection pales in comparisson? I have a connection to my very human animal son, and while I like the cat, if the house is on fire and I have to choose, the cat’s going down, know what I mean?

There really is nothing like it - human-human relationships really don’t compare.

To me, it is sad when people DO compare their pets to people, especially children. There is no comparison. There SHOULD be no comparison imho.

[quote]
Each has it’s pros and cons, of course, but, as always, the latter by far outweigh the former.[/quote][/quote]
eh? DO you mean the former outweigh the latter? The former being the pros.

Dr Fraud. Calling Dr Freud.

[Stray_Dog]

Clearly you don’t have the ability to make that certain connection with the non-human animal you share your household with.

That’s what you’re saying, right?

And, as I said, many people can’t or don’t want to, as you just demonstrated.

Are we disagreeing here? I think not, right?

[Mr_PBH]

[quote=“Stray Dog”]Clearly you don’t have the ability to make that certain connection with the non-human animal you share your household with.

That’s what you’re saying, right?

And, as I said, many people can’t or don’t want to, as you just demonstrated.

Are we disagreeing here? I think not, right?[/quote]

I don’t know, which is why I ask. Maybe I have but it just doesn’t strike me as it strikes you.

Maybe you could provide some examples of this “unquestioning and loyal partnership” so that I could have something to compare it to.

I feel a bit frog in the wellish, in that I know where I’m coming from, but that there seems to be a bigger ocean out there.

[Stray_Dog]

Well, jd, fancy having a stab at explaining your child’s ‘unconditional love’ as you call it?

It’s only fair, right? You go first and explain how you aren’t ‘being fitted permantantly into your son’s behavioral patterns, in a positive, “let’s not bite the hand that feeds me” manner.’

She stalks bugs, plays housesoccer, tears around the house and fluffs her tail out, curls up and naps on me, etc, all the regular cat stuff, but sorry brother, I don’t get any “unquestioning and loyal partnership” from my cat.

And your son? Explain how that is different. Do you have an ‘unquestioning and loyal partnership’ with your son? If so, how do you know? Why do you?

She’s a cat. Don’t you think this is a bit of a trick? Making yourself believe in the loyalty of an animal? Is this desire a psychological offshoot of being let down by someone during childhood or something?

Is it a trick to make yourself believe in the loyalty of your son? Is there some psychological need that you are fulfilling by having children? Did you get married because everyone else around you gets married? Humans aren’t monogamous by nature (particularly the males) so why did you enter into a contract to be? Why did you need that paper? What was the pressure there? Why did you need to have children? Why only one? What are you compensating for by feeling the need to further your genes? (Not everyone does, you see.)

Sounds kind of cultish to me there Sean. “Some people can’t do it, but it’s really great.” lol What if I have made the connection yet because I have other emotional connections to human animals that the non human animal connection pales in comparisson? I have a connection to my very human animal son, and while I like the cat, if the house is on fire and I have to choose, the cat’s going down, know what I mean?

I don’t know anyone who would save a non-human animal over their own flesh and blood (assuming the relationship is good ). There are plenty of people who make that ‘elusive’ connection with their companion animal/s even after having a child and building an excellent relationship with the kindred being (Tigerman, for instance, is a great dad but obviously has the ability to make that caring attitude non-exclusive and is also a great and appreciative dog ‘owner’ [even though he hasn’t neutered them yet ])

Certainly, non-human animals can fill the void that childless couples often experience, and for good reason - because the dog or cat (or other) is able to give them an opportunity to express all the love and caring they need to share and because he or she (the non-human animal) is able to reciprocate in the same way a human would (by responding to positive and negative stimuli and forming a relationship based on the amount of each). But just as many people with kids are able to appreciate the non-human companion animal in much the same way as a human offspring, or, most often, as another being. Some do not, of course, and you are a great representative of that minority.

To me, it is sad when people DO compare their pets to people, especially children. There is no comparison. There SHOULD be no comparison imho.

No comparison? Why not? I can compare a motor vehicle to a peanut - what’s the problem? Comparing is all about noting the similarities and differences. Why shouldn’t someone note how people and non-human animals are similar in many ways whilst also being different?

And well done for spotting the blooper! :bravo:

[maoman]

V and I refer to Gustav as a child all the time. Of course we know he isn’t, but given the way he responds to us, and the deep affection we have for him, it’s an easy comparison to make.

[bobepine]

[quote=“Maoman”]V and I refer to Gustav as a child all the time. Of course we know he isn’t, but given the way he responds to us, and the deep affection we have for him, it’s an easy comparison to make.[/quote]We do the same thing, and for the same reason. We call them our kids.

[Mr_PBH]

But just as many people with kids are able to appreciate the non-human companion animal in much the same way as a human offspring, or, most often, as another being. Some do not, of course, and you are a great representative of that minority.

Well, it certainly isn’t by choice, and I do appreciate the effort to explain this to me.

Just a sidebar before I begin to answer your questions: we just played a family game of Grass on the carpet with a small space heater going. Sugar curled up next to the boy and started the lickylick thing cats tend to do. It was quite a nice scene to be in, but this deeper “feeling” that you seem to be alluding to just isn’t there. I was thinking it could be that some parts of me were shut down out of necessity, however, when I answer your questions, I felt that no, they weren’t shut down at all, they just don’t work for the cat.

[quote]
It’s only fair, right? You go first and explain how you aren’t ‘being fitted permantantly into your son’s behavioral patterns, in a positive, “let’s not bite the hand that feeds me” manner.’ [/quote]
My son and I have a relationship based on understanding and communication. He knows it’s my job to protect him, educate him and help him become a good person, and we communicate about my job frequently, especially when he does something that is not conducive with those goals; we talk about my job when he’s mad because he is asked to do something he doesn’t want to do, but I believe is good for him.

We have a clear understanding. It is possible that we are building a behavioralpattern of communication, but to say that we are setting rules and limits on what can be discussed is not true. We have a fluid and dynamic relationship. He trusts me to do as I say and perform my job, and I trust him to communicate with me when he has a problem. It is his choice to trust me, as unfortunately I am not always able to keep my promises. My cat and I do not. I feed her. She eats. I don’t feed her, she meows until my head explodes. No amount of words or aerially deployed pillows will convince her that I just want TEN MORE MINUTES of sleep!

[quote]
Is it a trick to make yourself believe in the loyalty of your son?[/quote]
Oddly enough, I don’t have any expectations of loyalty from my son. I have hope that he and I will form a lasting relationship that continues to grow and develop and deepen over time. With the cat, I believe this is as good as it gets…although, it might get a little better if I am better able to appreciate her for her catness.

Is there some psychological need that you are fulfilling by having children?

Not that I am aware of. I knew I was ready to start a family with my (then GF)wife, and so was she, so we got married. She was preggo a week later. I was absoluetly ready to take the next step in my maturation process and for me that meant starting a family.

Did you get married because everyone else around you gets married?

NO ONE around us was getting married, and we had no pressure from her family, so nope. We wanted to start a family so we got hitched. I got the cat so my son would have some experience with animals and not end up treating them like nearly every other kid around here.I knew it would be helpful in his education and it has been.

Humans aren’t monogamous by nature (particularly the males) so why did you enter into a contract to be? Why did you need that paper? What was the pressure there? Why did you need to have children? Why only one? What are you compensating for by feeling the need to further your genes? (Not everyone does, you see.)

Someone told me a long time ago that when people get married they make a committment to not hurt the other person. We had made this committment long before we were married. The paper helped me get permanent residency in Taiwan. I’m not sure how this relates to my cat though. There was no pressure to get the cat.

I don’t feel I’m compensating for anything by furthering my genes! lol I’m probably passing a crappy autoimmune disease to my son and a quick temper to boot. I take no great pleasure in my genes. I don’t have much desire to be remembered after my death, so I’m not after someone to keep my spirit alive. Maybe I thought it was time to start a family because I was confident I’d do a good job at it. The jury of course is still out, but the evidence is building up that I’m not so bad at it…knock on wood.

Why only one? Because we were afraid that we wouldn’t be able to love them equally, and that would be horribly unfair. Why only one cat? Because I am afraid of my wife.

Anyway, that’s my part. I hope the answers are helpful in clarifying my position. BTW, the cat has been on my lap farting for the past 10 minutes. I haven’t thrown her down. Am I growing?

jds

[Stray_Dog]

You weren’t supposed to answer the questions!

[UKbikerchic]

I’ve skimmed through this, so my comments may not really be on track.

I have 4 dogs and a cat.

Fat-so i have had since i have been in taiwan 13 years in march. She has been my friend, my pillow, my exercise, my sounding board, my security, my reason.

Now as i’m writing this it seems that i have a need for an animal, well yes, the same as anyone has a need for a loved one, child, friend,.

I give her everything she needs, i worry about her, i tend to her, i love her. Is this not the same as i would if i had a child (never gonna happen )

My other animals came alone for various reasons and i love and need them all in my life. I can honestly say that they have brought me through some very difficult periods in my life.

Of course i need human contact and i have many friends, but sometimes i enjoy just spending time with my animals, they give me a different kind of love.

What i want to know is why people can’t understand or want to understand that my animals are as important to me as a child would be? I don’t have to justify myself the same way as anyone with children doesn’t have to justify their love for their child.

I don’t expect every one to have an animal in thier home, but i do hope that people have respect for the other lives (non-human) in this world.

Do my animals make me a better person?? I hope so. i have grown. i have responsibilities, i have others to think about in my life, at times this can be difficult, but it does make me stronger.

I strongly believe that each and every person is entitled to their own opinion. If you have a “pet” and give it respect and you like having it around but don’t really love it, then that is your preference.
if you have a “pet” and you love it undyingly then that is also your perference.
and finally if you have no tolarance for “pet” in your house, but you don’t harm living creatures, then that is also up to you.

The world is full of differences and that’s what makes it all the more interesting.

I for one will always have animals in my house and if i could i would have more than i aready do. I’m planning as soon as i get my house to have at least one more doggie (Charley ) and a crippled cat from the vet’s. If i can cope with more without putting the lives of the other animals in my life at risk then i will.

[maoman]

@jdsmith

I feed her. She eats. I don’t feed her, she meows until my head explodes. No amount of words or aerially deployed pillows will convince her that I just want TEN MORE MINUTES of sleep!

That sounds uncannily like the relationship I have with my daughter, but substitute “cries” for “meows”. And I don’t throw pillows at her, at least not when Vanessa’s looking.

[bobepine]

[quote=“UKbikerchic”]I’ve skimmed through this, so my comments may not really be on track.

I have 4 dogs and a cat.

Fat-so i have had since i have been in taiwan 13 years in march. She has been my friend, my pillow, my exercise, my sounding board, my security, my reason.

Now as i’m writing this it seems that i have a need for an animal, well yes, the same as anyone has a need for a loved one, child, friend,.

I give her everything she needs, i worry about her, i tend to her, i love her. Is this not the same as i would if i had a child (never gonna happen )

My other animals came alone for various reasons and i love and need them all in my life. I can honestly say that they have brought me through some very difficult periods in my life.

Of course i need human contact and i have many friends, but sometimes i enjoy just spending time with my animals, they give me a different kind of love.

What i want to know is why people can’t understand or want to understand that my animals are as important to me as a child would be? I don’t have to justify myself the same way as anyone with children doesn’t have to justify their love for their child.

I don’t expect every one to have an animal in thier home, but i do hope that people have respect for the other lives (non-human) in this world.

Do my animals make me a better person?? I hope so. i have grown. i have responsibilities, i have others to think about in my life, at times this can be difficult, but it does make me stronger.

I strongly believe that each and every person is entitled to their own opinion. If you have a “pet” and give it respect and you like having it around but don’t really love it, then that is your preference.
if you have a “pet” and you love it undyingly then that is also your perference.
and finally if you have no tolarance for “pet” in your house, but you don’t harm living creatures, then that is also up to you.

The world is full of differences and that’s what makes it all the more interesting.

I for one will always have animals in my house and if i could i would have more than i aready do. I’m planning as soon as i get my house to have at least one more doggie (Charley ) and a crippled cat from the vet’s. If i can cope with more without putting the lives of the other animals in my life at risk then i will.[/quote]

I find this to be a very honest and touching post. Maybe it’s because it hits too close to home for me.

Cheers, Ukbikerchic.

[Mr_PBH]

@Maoman

[quote=“jdsmith”]I feed her. She eats. I don’t feed her, she meows until my head explodes. No amount of words or aerially deployed pillows will convince her that I just want TEN MORE MINUTES of sleep!

That sounds uncannily like the relationship I have with my daughter, but substitute “cries” for “meows”. And I don’t throw pillows at her, at least not when Vanessa’s looking. [/quote]

We have had some of this conversation before, about the similarities between young children and animals. Some people think there are many and I think this strengthens their belief in the “humanness” of their pet. I happen to think the comparisson is somewhat insulting to children and to parents. The similarities seem restricted to feeding, protecting and providing emotional support. Those things are important to both babies and pets, however, IMHO babies grow up and the similarities thin out. I don’t find the idea of a perpetual child a pleasant one. This is why we have a cat. Less needy.

But we’re getting a bit distracted, so I’d to go back to something UK bikerchick wrote:[quote]
Of course i need human contact and i have many friends, but sometimes i enjoy just spending time with my animals, they give me a different kind of love. [/quote]
This is what I hope someone can further explain. What kind of love does a pet give you, and how is it different from the love of a human bean. (And, as I think this is our first “face to face” posting UKBC, I am not crticising you at all, just hoping to learn something that seems to elude me )

[quote]
What i want to know is why people can’t understand or want to understand that my animals are as important to me as a child would be? I don’t have to justify myself the same way as anyone with children doesn’t have to justify their love for their child.[/quote]
Well, I suppose I have a hard time understanding that your dogs are as important to you as a child would be because you don’t have a child. The early stages of child rearing might be similar to that of raising a dog, but it is a totally different world when that kid is 3-4 years old. And being around other peoples’ kids does NOT adequately illustrate the difficulty and importance, and of course the joys and heartbreaks of having a child.

You certainly do not have to justify yourself, and I hope that you and others see my posts here more as an exploratory into my own thoughts and emotions, via your brains.
And you sound like a good doggiemom to me.
peace

[Mr_PBH]

wookie wrote:[quote]
But according to what I watched, it would appear that it were the dogs that has/had the most to gain from a relationship with humans. Perhaps that’s just it. They endeared themselves to us and being the generous people we are, we can’t help ourselves.[/quote]

Hmm, this sounds like people convince themselves that by being generous to pets, we somehow better ourselves? Certainly not from an economic point of view though, huh?

[TainanCowboy]

Heck, at least the comments so far have been directed at mammals as pets and their ventures into the anthropomorphism field.

I really don’t “get it” with people who go all warm & fuzzy about snakes and reptiles as pets. Not only are these critters, IMO, totally unable to have “feelings” regarding their food source/owners/masters - the darn things just ain’t snuggly in any way, shape or form.
N0PE…them just ain’t my idea of pets.

[bobepine]

[quote=“jdsmith”]wookie wrote:[quote]
But according to what I watched, it would appear that it were the dogs that has/had the most to gain from a relationship with humans. Perhaps that’s just it. They endeared themselves to us and being the generous people we are, we can’t help ourselves.[/quote]

Hmm, this sounds like people convince themselves that by being generous to pets, we somehow better ourselves? Certainly not from an economic point of view though, huh?[/quote]I think being generous to a pet, or to a person does make you a better person, jd. Having more money doesn’t.

[Mr_PBH]

[quote=“bobepine”][quote=“jdsmith”]wookie wrote:[quote]
But according to what I watched, it would appear that it were the dogs that has/had the most to gain from a relationship with humans. Perhaps that’s just it. They endeared themselves to us and being the generous people we are, we can’t help ourselves.[/quote]

Hmm, this sounds like people convince themselves that by being generous to pets, we somehow better ourselves? Certainly not from an economic point of view though, huh?[/quote]I think being generous to a pet, or to a person does make you a better person, jd. Having more money doesn’t. [/quote]

You sure about that? Wealthier people are better educated and, in most cases, more “wordly.” I just saw a young yuppie couple in Taipei walking their beautiful obviously happy Labs; I can go downstairs and see my blue collar neighbors’ filthy dog chained up outside in the cold inside a cage with not even a cardboard box floor.

I think there is a strong correlation between wealth/financial stability and generousity. People struggling to make ends meet IMO are less likely to give a shit about an animal or a human, despite their state of suffering.

Tainan Cowpoke wrote:

[quote]
I really don’t “get it” with people who go all warm & fuzzy about snakes and reptiles as pets.[/quote]
From my experience, knowing a few guys who owned spiders or snakes, they seem to hope that by having them they’ll somehow get laid.

[bobepine]

I’m not sure, but if I had to guess, I’d say that having money certainly doesn’t make you a better person. At least, I see no correlation between having money and being a better person. I could give you examples of why I think that, but that would be a bit off topic.

My post was more aimed at this comment:

[quote=“jdsmith”]Hmm, this sounds like people convince themselves that by being generous to pets, we somehow better ourselves?[/quote]Why would people need to convince themselves of that? If you are generous to another human, aren’t you a better person than if you are not generous to another human? Why should it be any different if the subject of your generosity is an animal?

[Mr_PBH]

Why would people need to convince themselves of that? If you are generous to another human, aren’t you a better person than if you are not generous to another human? Why should it be any different if the subject of your generosity is an animal?

I guess my point is that being a better person is very subjective. “I’m a better person for being generous to my cat” is a statement that surely can be debated.

That is why I wondered if people convince themselves that by being good to animals, or people for that matter, make them better people. What if there no tangible “betterments” being had in the rest of the person’s life outside of being a pet owner?

Being generous is not a default way of becoming a better person. I am curious about the effect being a pet owner has on the rest of the person’s life, particularly his or her interactions and dealings with other human animals. Does having pets help people treat people better?

So, the question may actually be, “HOW has being a good pet owner made you a better person?” If I say that having my cat has taught me to be a lot more patient and this has made me a more patient teacher and my students are responding very positively to that patience, then there is a tangible benefit being had, a real measurable “betterment.”

Not that this has happened to me though.

Maybe I just expect too much from this whole pet thing, but the questions I have stem from so many people saying how much better off they are with pets. My cat is now lying on my back snoozing away, and I am certainly being generous in letting her stay there, but honestly I don’t feel I’ve achieved any higher state of being in doing so.

[Chief_The_Dog]

[quote=“Baloo”]We’re smarter than that, surely?[/quote]That’s a no brainer. Woof!

[the_chief]

@Chief The Dog

[quote=“Baloo”]We’re smarter than that, surely?[/quote]That’s a no brainer. Woof!

Alright, for Chrissakes, that’s just about enough.
First, TomfuckingHill gets thechief the cat over in Blighty, and now chief the dog??
Never mind they’re both way more articulate (and probably smell better) than me…
Is there any way I can see some royalties out of this???