Are Mormons Christians?

The same statement can be applied universally to any religion. :hubba: :hubba:

No, what you have problems savvying is that that you aren’t asking basic questions at all.

Did God create the universe? Yes.
That’s a basic question.

There is an established pattern for declaring things officially for the Church. Taking anything they ever say and calling it “official” would be like a single Supreme Court justice being asked on the steps of the courthouse what abortion rights for cloned people are and then taking that answer and calling it an official position of the US government.

I don’t know. That’s certainly not my religion. LDS leaders have no problem answering basic questions.

But you tell me. What kind of a person asks ridiculous questions they know there is no answer to in any religion and then calls them basic?

These issues? You mean your “big bang question”?

Or do you mean if there’s something before God, or about geography, or what have you?

When speaking officially, their answers are pretty much going to be the same:
It doesn’t matter. We have one God and that’s where our faith must be placed. It’s uncertain about exactly where X happened, but X happened.

No. But a number of posters act like lawyers trying to put the squeeze on.

No revealed answers about the Big Bang. No revealed answers about specific geographical questions. No revealed answers about how God knows what God knows.

Many revealed answers about things that are of great importance.
[ul][li]What is the purpose of life?[/li]
[li]How does one become perfect?[/li]
[li]How can you be happy in this life and the next life?[/li]
[li]How can God be all loving yet still allow suffering?[/li]
[li]What about people who never have a chance to hear about Jesus?[/li]
[li]What’s the point of heaven?[/li]
[li]What constitutes a sin?[/li]
[li]Why does sin keep us from being with God?[/li][/ul]

But what value is such an answer? And who really cares about your God and Big Bang question? I sure don’t. Knowing specifically the answers to any of the questions that lie in “gray areas” won’t actually help us to have happier lives or gain salvation.

Bingo.

There are a lot of unknowns. But what is known is important, while the unknowns brought up on this thread have no bearing on our eternal salvation.

Official LDS doctrine is that we have one God. He has sent his son, Jesus Christ, to pay for our sins and transgressions. Christ suffered for our sins, died, and was resurrected. Through this all mankind will overcome death and can overcome the effects of sin through faith by the grace of Christ’s great act.

Official teachings center around this and help us understand it. Things that get away from this are rarely officially commented on, and we have less knowledge about because we have no need of knowledge of such matters. At least, not while we still live.

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”] But you tell me. What kind of a person asks ridiculous questions they know there is no answer to in any religion and then calls them basic?

Official teachings center around this and help us understand it. [color=blue]Things that get away from this are rarely officially commented on, and we have less knowledge about because we have no need of knowledge of such matters[/color]. At least, not while we still live.[/quote]

Yes now we see the true side from LDS. Anything you cannot answer is simply ridiculous and to be tossed aside. Nice insulting and condecending answer. :smiley: :smiley: Perhaps thats why you became an elapsed LDS member anyways. Discovered too many basic questions could not be answered. Your post answeres all mention the where was god efore the big bang but alas my friend, you have misunderstood. The questions raised do not mention that. bzzzt… wrong answers.

Don’t compare hypothetical questions about clones having abortions being discussed wth a Supreme Court Justice. That’s a human man made issue. The question put forth to you is surely not one that God does not have an answer for.

You might find them ridiculous but the person asking might not. Jesus would have found a polite way of answering. But not RDO, Prophet of the Positronic Brain. Oh NO NO NO, he treats othes with contempt over their ridiculous little questions he can’t answer.

I have asked Christians where was God before the big bang, and guess what? They have an answer for it. A few short words no less but at least an answer anybody can understand.

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”] [quote]Seems like LDS members have free range to believe anything they like when there is no revealed answer.[/quote] Bingo.

Things that get away from this are rarely officially commented on, [color=blue]and we have less knowledge about because we have no need of knowledge of such matters[/color]. At least, not while we still live.[/quote]

Great, I can now join the LDS. I shall prey fervently and my faith shall grow. I shall become a prophet and give my life to God so that all the sins of mankind can be forgiven, and ascend to heaven as God. After all doesnt LDS Doctrine allow that to happen?

Of course you will have less knowledge and have no need to have knowledge of such trivial mattters. At least not until you die. :smiley:

Yes, it is one and only one. Mormons have only one God. We worship the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as God. If there are other gods not created by God, it’s not really the business of LDS since they wouldn’t be our God. But most Mormons I know believe God the Father is the creator of all. Other gods would be children of God and become gods as they become like their Father.

As I said before, Mormons are Christian, but do not agree to the definitions of God that most other Christians have established. Mormons do not belong in the same group as orthodox (small ‘o’) Christians. They’re neither Catholic or Protestant. But still Christian.

I understand the meaning of strong agnostic. That’s why I brought it up. I’ve discussed such terminology on this forum several times before. As opposed to a “soft agnostic” or “weak agnostic” you feel there is no way for a person to know if there is a God or not, while the soft/weak agnostic just thinks it is not known-- at least to them.

The reason I say this is of interest is that the concept of unknowability is based on a human deficiency. Assuming there exists a supernatural realm of perception, humanity is bound by observational limitations to the natural and cannot comprehend anything behind nature. If there is no supernatural realm, man lacks the ability to affirm this through observation. Thus, based on man’s power of observation alone, the existence of a supernatural deity would be an unknowable.

However, a deity would not have such a limitation and would be able to extend perception of the supernatural to humans. This fails as an argument against strong agnosticism generally because a person would have no way to get themselves chosen for a prophetic vision where they could perceive the supernatural. Mormonism is interesting in that it offers a promise to anyone who would want to know the truth of the existence of deity or not. While Mormonism is not unique in this, the proposition is interesting.

Thus it would be possible for a person to know there is a God. But, if a person were to attempt to gain such knowledge and fail, that would not disprove the existence of God, only the efficacy of the method of knowing. So, while knowledge of God would be possible, knowledge of a lack of God would not be.

Were you a negative/weak/soft agnostic this wouldn’t have been of note.

[quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”] But you tell me. What kind of a person asks ridiculous questions they know there is no answer to in any religion and then calls them basic?
Official teachings center around this and help us understand it. [color=blue]Things that get away from this are rarely officially commented on, and we have less knowledge about because we have no need of knowledge of such matters[/color]. At least, not while we still live.[/quote]
Yes now we see the true side from LDS. Anything you cannot answer is simply ridiculous and to be tossed aside.[/quote]
On the contrary. There are many interesting things that are not ridiculous that lie outside of Mormon teachings. Such as, are there other worlds within traveling distance? Would they worship God? Well, we don’t know that. And it’s not really essential for us to know for our salvation. But it’s not a ridiculous question.

Your question is ridiculous because you are asking for someone to give an opinion or position on something that lies outside of what is revealed. You are expecting there to be a contradiction or for it to “blow their mind”. What’s more you are asking for an official church position and are unwilling to accept the answer “there is no official position on this, it is not revealed.” Then you have the gall to say LDS leaders should make up an answer.

Yes, your question was absolutely ridiculous.

Thanks. I think it’s an appropriate response to you. You’re really only interested in poking fun and insulting me in the first place. That’s your entire point of being on this thread. But you’re not much good as a heckler and turning your ridicule back on you is easy.

Yet you still don’t seem to learn. Some people don’t.

Hehe. Funny typo. Just picturing an “elapsed” member. But seriously, your attempt at an insult is really lame. Take just a few seconds to think about it. If I had a serious problem with the doctrine, do you think I’d spend so much time defending it? My reasons for not being in the church are a personal matter, but my belief in the Church teachings and my Savior remains rock solid.

The answers are only wrong if the questions aren’t stupid. But actually, my answer was not that God existed before the Big Bang. My answer was that your question was a) ridiculous and b) not covered in official LDS teachings.

Why? Cause you don’t really understand the comparison? It’s about speaking with authority vs. a person vested with authority speaking in a role outside of authority. The specific topics are unimportant, the key issue is that these are controversial issues he would have have authority on if he were acting as part of the court, but outside of the court his voice no longer carries the force of law.

Probably. But there were plenty of times when he put his questioners to shame when he knew they were trying to entrap him. And he called them names, too: Pharisees! Hypocrites!

Some others. But here it’s you in particular. I don’t respect you. And since you are making it a point to come after me, I’ll keep turning your attacks back on your own head.

How many times have I come in after you posted things not directed at me or my beliefs and ridiculed you? None. In each case my “arrogant response” comes after you aim a remark at either my beliefs or often directly at a post in which I have not mentioned you. You’re the first to show contempt, and then when your criticisms are picked apart you call foul.

What? They don’t know? Anything more than that and I’d have to wonder.

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”][quote=“Tattered Flesh”]
That said, fundamentally, Christianity is the belief that there is one and only one God and that Jesus is his son and also God. This belief is basically covered in the Nicene Creed and most churches (Catholic, Orthodox and most Protestant) recognize it. I’m not sure what “Christian” churches disagree with that statement.

It is my understanding that Mormons wish to amend this statement.[/quote]
Mormons believe there is one and only one God and that Jesus is his Son and is also God.[/quote]

So in fact Mormons do not in fact believe that there is one and only one God. The standard works refer repeatedly to ‘gods’, and LDS apologists appeal to Ancient Near East polytheistic texts in attempts to claim that polytheism was the original orthodox Hebrew religion.

By the way RDO, I’m compiling two posts in response to several of your latest. It’s taking me time because I’m compressing my posts to save space on the forum and make them more readable. I should have them to you in the next couple of days.

so the conclusion = yes, kinda ?

Well, they’re all one God. And there’s only one God the Father.

Yes. But not multiple God the Fathers.

I’m sure it will be interesting. But I have to wonder why you want to go to the trouble. I guess you want to “put Mormonism in its place” or something like that, and this is your big opportunity.

Well, you’ve got until the 8th of this month. After that I won’t have time to respond cause I’ll be moving and all. If you want, you can take it up with actual Mormon scholars at FARMS who also know Hebrew grammar. I’m just an amateur who enjoys debate.

Oop, sorry, missed it. I have veeery slow interwebs, so I may have skipped some pages. Excuse me and thanks for re-stating.

Well, they’re all one God.[/quote]

RDO, now you’re doing strange things with English grammar. The pronoun ‘they’ is plural, the number ‘one’ is singular. Either there’s one god, or there are many gods.

That’s not the topic under discussion.

Yes. But not multiple God the Fathers.[/quote]

That’s not the topic under discussion. The correct answer to the original question is that Mormons do not in fact believe that there is one and only one God. They believe in more than one god. They believe in ‘gods’, and they argue that polytheism was the original orthodox religion of the Hebrews.

It’s nothing so spiteful. It’s a matter of comparative theology and comparative apologetics.

I’ve discussed various issues with Mormon scholars before, including Daniel Peterson and Kerry Shirts. But it doesn’t matter how much Hebrew grammar they know, they can’t change the facts any more than you can.

Well, they’re all one God.[/quote]

RDO, now you’re doing strange things with English grammar. The pronoun ‘they’ is plural, the number ‘one’ is singular. Either there’s one god, or there are many gods.[/quote]

OR there is a mysterious plurality yet with unity, such as the holy Trinity, in which case doing strange things with English grammar merely mirrors the strangeness and contradiction inherent in the phenomenon itself. :stuck_out_tongue:

What? You don’t read every page line by line and take extensive notes on it? The gall! :stuck_out_tongue:

But if there was a time to ask the question again, that was it.

That’s not the topic under discussion.[/quote]
Oh, yes it is. The question is whether or not Mormons believe there is one and only one God.

In Mormon theology (and that’s what’s under discussion), God with a capital ‘G’ refers to either: 1) God the Father of our Spirits and Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh, 2) Jesus Christ acting on behalf of God the Father, or 3) The Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). In all cases, Mormons would consider it being only one.

In some speculation, Mormons have used capital ‘G’ God to refer to other “head gods”. But that lies outside of official doctrine, and even then there is still the distinction that we (all people on earth) have only one God. However, comments such as these can not be applied generally to Mormon beliefs.

Fallacy of equivocation.

It’s nothing so spiteful. It’s a matter of comparative theology and comparative apologetics.[/quote]
By comparative theology and comparative apologetics you mean trying to prove the position of a particular religion (Mormonism) to be false? Well, that’s not what this thread was supposed to be about. It was supposed to be about whether what Mormons believe is actually Christian, not about if specific doctrines are correct.

The problem with this discussion is that I’m in a position of having to respond to arguments that doctrine X or Y is not possibly correct. Considering the subject matter, the best I can do is show that X or Y could be correct, but there’s no chance of proving it must be correct. So even when I make my case, it doesn’t appear to be much of a victory.

There’s a partisan crowd here, which is not all that conducive to having a discussion that isn’t ruled at least in part by emotional charge.

Nor you. No matter how you try to force Mormon belief into a form you think it is, it doesn’t change what the actually official beliefs are.

My point was that when you start discussing Hebrew grammar (or any other ancient scriptural language), I am unable to participate meaningfully. I don’t have the necessary scholarly background. All I can do is point to articles written by others which disagree with you. I can’t actually know whether your arguments are valid or not, or if an article I point you to is good or not.

But I do know what LDS doctrine is and what it’s not.

Your question is ridiculous because you are asking for someone to give an opinion or position on something that lies outside of what is revealed

What? They don’t know? [color=blue]Anything more than that and I’d have to wonder[/color].[/quote]

No, Unlike the LDS who do not have an answer others do. You claim the question abouit where is God before the big bang is rridiculous. It obviously isnt a ridiculous question. Quite revelant. So it seems that the LDS claim it is not revealed. Well it is in other religions even though you claim it isnt.

How about God is, was, and always will be.

You see God precedes the creation of the universe. You should have known this. Only those in the LDS seem not to know.

Perhaps you might like to read Genesis.

Well thats what is says in my bible.

So you can go on wondering… because all those who can read understands God was there before the creation of the universe.

I’m not religious. But have a great deal in common with those practicing pretty much any religion. So long as they respect others rights to have spiritual views of their own, that may differ from their own. I respect their right to their own beliefs. If Mormons consider themselves to be Christian, fine (which seems to be the opinion of Mormons here), It matters not if I had belonged to another group of Christians, out of respect for another’s beliefs, why not just leave it at that.

It’s been pointed out and I agree the Mormans I have met are always friendly, I don’t mind stopping for a chat when I see a couple, many times thy look very hot, and I know from when I first got here, being away from home at a young age, in a country where the language, the food and the culture is all different it’s a breath of fresh air to have a chat with someone who is friendly and pleasant, is it really necessary to see these people with their religious beliefs first and foremost?

Some of this thread, forgive me for saying, reminds me of Trekies at a Star trek conference arguing over the finer points of Klingon language and Romulan vs Vulcan culture. I enjoyed the show too, it made some good points , but I don’t think it should absorb you to the point that it becomes obsessive.

I like the community sprit that many of those practicing religion have, looking out for each other, being there, getting together communally. This is good no? My mom goes up to church every week, brings along a couple of older ladies, for which this is the only time they get to get out, nothing wrong with that. Pretty much all religions teach love one another, don’t steal, be an honest person. Whats wrong with taking the good from a religion and making it a part of your life.

Why get so obsessed with the differences, why not let it go, if you look at the similarities, you will find, even someone like myself, who doesn’t believe there was a Jesus, or if there was did not perform miracles. You will see, what we have in common far outweighs the differences.

Well, they’re all one God.[/quote]

RDO, now you’re doing strange things with English grammar. The pronoun ‘they’ is plural, the number ‘one’ is singular. Either there’s one god, or there are many gods.[/quote]

OR there is a mysterious plurality yet with unity, such as the holy Trinity, in which case doing strange things with English grammar merely mirrors the strangeness and contradiction inherent in the phenomenon itself. :p[/quote]

That’s theoretically possible, but the LDS belief is that there is more than one God, and the Father, son and Holy Spirit are united in purpose, not ontology (this is an explicit rejection of the trinitarian position).

Yes, the question is whether or not Mormons believe there is only one God/god. The answer is you don’t. What you said is that you believe that there is only one Heavenly Father. That was not the question.

This doesn’t address the issue. The capitalization is not the issue.

Wait a minute, so when the Book of Abraham (which you told me is canonized Scripture), uses the capital ‘G’ for ‘Gods’, you’re saying it’s only speculation and lies outside official doctrine? Surely not. You dig your own holes when you indulge in this kind of ad hoc apologetic.

In reality, the capitalization is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not Mormons believe there is only one God, god, deity, put it how you like. The answer is that they don’t. You believe that Heavenly Father is the ‘head god’, so you (RDO), reserve the capital ‘G’ for Him, but that doesn’t change the fact that Mormons believe in more than one god. That’s why LDS apologists attempt to use Ancient Near East texts to argue that the original orthodox religion of the Hebrews was polytheistic (a fact I’ve mentioned twice now, and which you keep ignoring).

It’s not a fallacy of equivocation. Mormons do not believe in only one god, they believe in more than one god. Capitalize it or not, it doesn’t change what is commonly meant by the term ‘god’. And remember that in the Book of Abraham the term ‘Gods’ is used with a capital ‘G’.

No, I mean what I said.

If it were correct, you would be able to show that it was correct. In the case under discussion it’s a simple matter of grammar. This is not rocket science.

I acknowledge that. Having spent months on LDS forums I’ve had exactly the same experience, I can assure you.

But I haven’t done anything of the kind. I’ve even checked my understanding with LDS members on other forums, and been told I have the correct understanding. Ironically I was even thanked by several LDS members, one of whom told me that I had corrected his understanding.

You can know by reading the standard grammatical authorities, which are not biased towards my theological views or yours. Standard Hebrew grammars are aplenty, both on the Internet and in real life. This is not a difficult issue requiring an expert or a scholarly background. And I have half a dozen authoritative lexical sources with me here (including HALOT and TWOT), which I can quote for you if you like.

[quote=“almas john”]Actually, I’ve just invited a couple of local Mormons to my place for a meal. I dislike their religion and missionary work, but hold no malice toward the kids doing it. Actually, I feel sorry for them - thus the invite.

Out of respect, I won’t be guzzling booze in front of them, but if they start selling religion, they’re gonna be getting the Mighty Stomach of Thor smiting their cracker asses.[/quote]

That’s very charitable of you. :notworthy:

Tomas, I deliberately didn’t watch the clip because I find such triumphalism obnoxious no matter who the subject is, so I can’t comment particularly on the gentleman’s behaviour. But if it was as you describe it, I am glad I didn’t watch it. What’s certain however is that the clip is one of the ‘gotcha’ genre, which is the kind of thing I don’t enjoy watching.

:laughing: Yeah, first Mormon chick I met looked hot too.

Your question is ridiculous because you are asking for someone to give an opinion or position on something that lies outside of what is revealed.

What? They don’t know? Anything more than that and I’d have to wonder.[/quote]
How about God is, was, and always will be.[/quote]
That doesn’t answer your question. You asked “where”, not “was there”.

If you asked, “Did God exist before the Big Bang” I’d have given that same answer: Yes. But you asked “Where was God”. The answer I gave you was “somewhere” if the concept of place was actually meaningful before the Big Bang, if the Big Bang occurred as we (people) now believe it did.

I have, multiple times. But never does it say where God was before the creation of the universe. It only says God existed.

Well thats what is says in my bible.[/quote]
Mine too, but I tend to read from the KJV instead of the NIV. But, does that say where?

[color=blue]Your question is ridiculous because you are asking for someone to give an opinion or position on something that lies outside of what is revealed.[/color][/quote][/quote][/quote]

NO this is how you first answered. You claim it is a ridiculous question. This is how you answered my question, not just to me but to all reading the thread.

Now you claim other answers. This is why the LDS and many other religions fail and why so many leave the churches.

If you want to twist words to every question is it no wonder why nobody places any trust in what you preach.

Nobody is attacking your beliefs… which you are entitled to have. Just the way you answer. Unfortunately I cannot re-publish PM’s but the ones I got were from those with strong faith.