Are Mormons Christians?

Hmmm…some problems there.

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]Are Mormons Christian?

[quote=“Joseph Smith”][ol][li]We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.[/li]
[li]We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.[/li]
[li]We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.[/li]
[li]We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.[/li]
[li]We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.[/li]
[li]We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.[/li]
[li]We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.[/li]
[li]We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; [color=red]we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.[/color][/li]
[li]We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.[/li]
[li][color=red]We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the
American
continent[/color]; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.[/li]
[li]We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.[/li]
[li]We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.[/li]
[li]We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—[color=red]We believe all things[/color], we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.[/li][/ol][/quote][/quote]

So, if I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; and I also believe Spiderman Comics to be the word of God, then I’m still a Christian?

Perhaps I could do this; start a Church. Call it Christian and believe the Bible, Quran and all Buddhist and Hindu literature to be the word of God. That way I cover all the bases.

Sure, why not? :slight_smile:

I recognize that, but in this case we’re not talking about speculation. Nor are we talking about issues on which the GAs said ‘Of course we’re just going to speculate a little here, take it or leave it’. We’re talking about subjects on which the Church taught, on which the GAs taught, and beliefs which people believed because they were taught by the Church and GAs.

Doesn’t change the above.

I didn’t say anything about Cain, and nor do the passages I quoted.

I haven’t done this.

Doesn’t change the above. I think you need to consider the difference between Internet LDS and Chapel LDS.

I’m curious, what is at the root of all of this insistence that Mormons aren’t Christians? I mean, I went to Mormon meetings for the first thirty years of my life and was a full-time missionary for two years, and I’d say the primary teaching of the LDS Church, and the focus of at least 75% of all of the lessons taught and talks given by people at various levels, is that Christ is the redeemer of mankind, the son of God, a perfect being, etc., and on the teachings of Christ himself. The name of the church itself is the Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter Day Saints).

So why the stubborn insistence that what people say they are, and what they believe, is somehow not true? Is that belief offensive? Or is it that Mormons believe that they hold the true keys to priesthood authority on Earth, and that only through baptism by a priesthood holder can a person enter the kingdom of Heaven? I personally find that belief to be incorrect, but I’m not offended by it, just as I am not offended by someone who supports the political party I don’t support, and who thinks that my political party is full of crap.

Take the Book of Mormon as another example. I’ve read it a dozen times, taken classes that analyzed its passages in great detail, and I believe that the book is a well-edited fake, but even so, the book is largely about the Christ and his teachings. It is a clear statement of Mormon belief in Christ if it is anything.

Is there some universally accepted standard for belonging to Christianity that everyone agrees upon? If not, then what is the motivation for telling people that they aren’t who they say they are? This mindset and behavior, in my view, reveals a deep prejudice toward the practitioners of a religion, and is decidedly un-Christian.

I find all of this insistence that Mormons are not who they say they are on this thread to be a thinly guised attack on Mormonism. I think if you hate Mormons or are offended by them for some reason, you should post your vitriol in another thread, or on a website that allows the posting of such opinions.

In case there’s any confusion, I am a former Mormon. I have no belief in the truthfulness of the Mormon church, but I don’t find anything offensive in the pursuit of their religion on the part of Mormons.

I was wondering the same thing, Tomas.

No. IS the correct answer.

You trying to tell me the Book of Mormon I read through… and chuckled while I read was not THE TRUE document? Yeesh…sounds like Hubbard and the OT levels…all “secret”…

John Smith wrote Religious Fiction that was ‘ripe’ in it’s time.
Hubbard wrote up a Fictional Religion based on “Science”…and Sold it.

I’m not christian…so…they can believe what ever they want.

…if you didn’t “believe” point #7 you could never be a Mormon. Nor a whole heck of a lot of other religions…shrug

[quote]Now, for the sake of discussion let me grant that everything I believed to be true about mormonism was mistaken. I was totally wrong and when it became “obvious” to me the church was a man-made fantasy, I was only evaluating a false, warped version of the chruch that had been mistakenly taught to me by my prophets, parents, and leaders.

So my question is, accoriding to mormon belief, will god hold people like me accountable for rejecting the false version of his religion? Whose fault is it that we were all taught a version of the church that was such a ludicrous fantasy nobody in their right mind could believe it?

Do people raised on the hemispheric model and other nonsense get a free pass at the judgement bar? [/quote]
from Fortigurn’s link
Darn those Ex Mormons…spreading such “lies.”

When all you have to do is Read the Book of Mormon for a good chuckle.
Hubbard was also quite the writer…

By virtue of point #7…?? You think it will make a whit of difference?

Apparently not.

Should I be offended if I was Christian?

How is it an attack?
Mormon’s aren’t Christians.
It’s not a bad thing.

As soon as anyone can Sell another on the idea of their Eternal Salvation by any means, collect $$$…Well heck…Look a New Religion!
Aligning with another religion already well established to be the mechanism of “salvation” based on whatever…makes it even easier to sell. Hubbard should have taken a closer look at Smith’s method perhaps?

[quote]
So, if I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; and I also believe Spiderman Comics to be the word of God, then I’m still a Christian? [/quote]
Of Course! Now throw in #7…and you’re set to go. Ignore the bolded part wherever you see fit. Collect money…

[quote=“Tomas”]I’m curious, what is at the root of all of this insistence that Mormons aren’t Christians? I mean, I went to Mormon meetings for the first thirty years of my life and was a full-time missionary for two years, and I’d say the primary teaching of the LDS Church, and the focus of at least 75% of all of the lessons taught and talks given by people at various levels, is that Christ is the redeemer of mankind, the son of God, a perfect being, etc., and on the teachings of Christ himself. The name of the church itself is the Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter Day Saints).

So why the stubborn insistence that what people say they are, and what they believe, is somehow not true? Is that belief offensive? Or is it that Mormons believe that they hold the true keys to priesthood authority on Earth, and that only through baptism by a priesthood holder can a person enter the kingdom of Heaven? I personally find that belief to be incorrect, but I’m not offended by it, just as I am not offended by someone who supports the political party I don’t support, and who thinks that my political party is full of crap.

Take the Book of Mormon as another example. I’ve read it a dozen times, taken classes that analyzed its passages in great detail, and I believe that the book is a well-edited fake, but even so, the book is largely about the Christ and his teachings. It is a clear statement of Mormon belief in Christ if it is anything.

Is there some universally accepted standard for belonging to Christianity that everyone agrees upon? If not, then what is the motivation for telling people that they aren’t who they say they are? This mindset and behavior, in my view, reveals a deep prejudice toward the practitioners of a religion, and is decidedly un-Christian.

I find all of this insistence that Mormons are not who they say they are on this thread to be a thinly guised attack on Mormonism. I think if you hate Mormons or are offended by them for some reason, you should post your vitriol in another thread, or on a website that allows the posting of such opinions.

In case there’s any confusion, I am a former Mormon. I have no belief in the truthfulness of the Mormon church, but I don’t find anything offensive in the pursuit of their religion on the part of Mormons.[/quote]

I wasn’t going to enter this foray but the comments and questions that Tomas raised should be addressed by those pointing the fingers. Isn’t a Christian someone who believes in Jesus Christ? You Christians should spend more time attacking those like me rather than your own.

I am not religious nor a Mormon and do not believe in “God”. But attacks on the Mormons have been repeatedly raised in other threads over the years.

However, in my experience (again IN MY EXPERIENCE) the Mormons I have encountered have been extremely reliable, honest, and trustworthy. I can’t say the same for many people belonging to other religions/sects.

It can’t be that anyone who “believes in” (and having believed, supports) Jesus is a Christian, because Muslims believe in Jesus (as a prophet), and that would just be too confusing.

We might do better to say that anyone who says they are a Christian, is one. But then what happens when somebody professes to follow Christ, with the crucial detail that Christ is a space alien? It is not unreasonable to complain that this person is following what amounts to an entirely different religion, which happens to share the same name and (probably) certain symbols.

If this be granted, then we are faced with the vexed question of where to draw the line. Mormon theology is enough of an “outlier” that it could very easily be grouped together with the space-alien theory–which would explain why the Mormon church tries to downplay all this weird stuff. (Imagine if the missionaries opened with something like “Hi, did you ever wonder whether God has sex?”)

Oh yeah, and it matters that the Mormon church (like many similar religions) is secretive and corrupt, and seems practically designed to enable abuses of power. Add to this its exclusive claims, mass of beliefs which tend to strike outsiders as a bit ridiculous, minority religious status outside Utah and neighboring regions, and cheerful public persona…all of which makes them an easy target.

North American Fundamentalist Evangelical prejudice. According to these sects, anyone who doesn’t agree with their ‘Fundamentals’ is not only ‘non-Christian’ but is a ‘cult’. My own Christian sect falls under their definition of ‘non-Christian cult’.

Outside North America, this is practically unheard of. Speaking personally, although I believe that the LDS church is at a very remote distance from true apostolic teaching, I still classify them as a Christian sect.

A belief in Christ is generally considered to be the necessary minimum.

Correct. A belief in Christ (that is, that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah), is necessary. Muslims don’t believe that. Not even Bahai’s believe that (they believe he was a Messiah).

I’m afraid my extremely conservative Catholic parents would have the same prejudices. I’ve even heard them say things about at least one other religion such as “Harumph! That’s not really different from being an atheist!”. Seems there is only ‘pure (i.e., MY) belief’ and ‘all else’. :s

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]It can’t be that anyone who “believes in” (and having believed, supports) Jesus is a Christian, because Muslims believe in Jesus (as a prophet), and that would just be too confusing.

We might do better to say that anyone who says they are a Christian, is one. But then what happens when somebody professes to follow Christ, with the crucial detail that Christ is a space alien? It is not unreasonable to complain that this person is following what amounts to an entirely different religion, which happens to share the same name and (probably) certain symbols. [/quote]

I’m sorry…what? Your analogies are full of holes. Mormons believe that Christ is the Savior of Mankind. They do not believe that Christ is a space alien. They believe in essentially the same Christ that Christians the world over believe in–the son of God, a person whose blood atonement allowed the forgiveness of sins. What you’ve written here is a bunch of hair-splitting, and it is not persuasive.

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]If this be granted, then we are faced with the vexed question of where to draw the line. Mormon theology is enough of an “outlier” that it could very easily be grouped together with the space-alien theory–which would explain why the Mormon church tries to downplay all this weird stuff. (Imagine if the missionaries opened with something like “Hi, did you ever wonder whether God has sex?”)

Oh yeah, and it matters that the Mormon church (like many similar religions) is secretive and corrupt, and seems practically designed to enable abuses of power. Add to this its exclusive claims, mass of beliefs which tend to strike outsiders as a bit ridiculous, minority religious status outside Utah and neighboring regions, and cheerful public persona…all of which makes them an easy target.[/quote]

This part was a bit hard to slog through, but after reading it I can’t help but come to the unfortunate conclusion that for all of your surface erudition, you’re just another bigot. I honestly thought you were more objective than that.

Do you actually have any first hand experience inside the Mormon church, or are you basing your conclusions on the information posted on anti-Mormon websites or books written by the Tanners? For example, how do you know that the Mormon church “enables abuse of power”? Have you experienced such an abuse? I think that some of those who are in leadership positions are not qualified or suitable for the jobs they hold (e.g. one of the mission presidents I worked with was cold as a fish, and my bishop had no idea how to counsel me when I went through a divorce), but I never once experienced a so-called “abuse of power,” nor can I recall a friend or relative in the church ever mentioning such a thing to me.

Any hierarchical social group which places a minority of members in positions of authority over the majority of members enables abuse of power. Schools are an example. Hospitals are another. Then there’s government. It’s not easy to avoid in such situations.

[quote=“bismarck”][color=red]we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.[/color]
[color=red]We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the
American
continent[/color]
[color=red]We believe all things[/color][/quote]
So, you found 3 things that your sect doesn’t believe. You think these things are clearly wrong. That’s not a problem with Mormons being Christian. That’s a problem with Mormons being Protestant. And Joseph Smith wrote that specifically to illustrate many of the differences, not just the similarities.

What about the rest of that? The things you didn’t mark in red? Just ignore it so you can keep saying Mormons aren’t Christian because that’s already what you’ve been programmed to believe?

Sure, why not? I mean, maybe God did create the Marvel universe, too, just, we only get to view it through imagination. God could be the God of an infinite number of universes. So, if you want to believe it is inspired by God and really happens, that’s fine.

Of course, you shouldn’t call your non-mainstream views typical of Christianity. But the fact that you believe Christ is your Savior makes you Christian, even if your Lord’s Prayer includes something about protecting you from Galactus and his heralds.

I think you can do the Bible and the Qur’an since they share a common belief in God, but you’ll have difficulty with the parts where Islam considers Jesus just a prophet and not the Messiah. But perhaps you can reconcile them.

As for incorporating Buddhism, you’ll have to do some serious Marvel-style retconning to get it to jive. It would be easier to subsume Christianity under Buddhism than Buddhism under Christianity.

But, if you could somehow reconcile the doctrinal differences on the key issue of Jesus’ role as the Messiah (and relation to the Father), you would still be called Christian.

I recognize that, but in this case we’re not talking about speculation.[/quote]
In which case? I’m not sure what the disagreement is. For the most part, my responses were directed at people other than you, and I was referring specifically to quotes that were certainly speculation and not doctrine.

What do you mean by “the Church taught”? You mean, it was said in a regional meeting somewhere? Or something repeated a few times? Or something that was systematically taught?

Most of what I am objecting to are cases where it is not systematically taught. I would say that such things are not taught by the church, although members of the church may believe it.

Again, are you sure this is actually taught in Mormon church meetings? Most of the things I’m objecting to I do so with good reason.

I am not objecting to saying that Mormons believe God darkened the skin of a group of people due to their iniquity. I am objecting to other quotes, such as that blacks were less valiant spirits in the premortal world. I am not objecting to the Mormon belief that people can become like God, but I am objecting to saying that it is taught that God the Father (specifically) was a mortal man who lived on an earth like ours. The latter is speculation, not doctrine, and not taught in church as doctrine.

Doesn’t change the above.[/quote]
If it isn’t taught in church, how do you say the church teaches it? People who read outside writings, even by prophets and apostles, are counseled to pray about whatever they read, and are explicitly told by local church leaders that such writings are not church teachings, but can be instructional and faith promoting.

I was specifically told such things, myself. And most church members don’t even read such outside writings at all. So, I think it does make a difference in whether or not you can say the church teaches these things or not.

Yes, but others did. I was replying to them, not you.

I haven’t done this.[/quote]
I know. You’ve been admirably balanced in the things you’ve said. But others have not, and so my remarks were directed at what they had said. Like, just then I was responding to what SoulDragon was saying.

I think you should consider the slant of the article.

Another way to look at it is that Mormonism has certain set teachings that are considered revealed doctrine that anyone claiming to be LDS should accept those teachings. But then there are other things that people can deduce and things that they think they can deduce.

Back in the early days of Christianity, there were a lot of Christian writers who had their own opinions about doctrine. It took a series of councils and a lot of arguing to come to an agreement as to what is really the truth. And these learned Christians propounded their beliefs as if it were the truth. The same is true of the LDS church. Some of these writings are more respected than others, but they are not considered to be doctrinal teachings.

If all the writings of the various leaders of the ancient church were put on the internet, I think you’d have much the same sort of mess as when you read Mormon apologetics and the historical writings of early church leaders. If Mormons were Catholic, I suspect many of these writings would be called heretical by somebody or other. Instead, we just say it isn’t doctrine and you should ask God if that is true or not.

But when it’s time to criticize the church, I think you have to stick with what the church teaches, and not go off on things that are not doctrine. If you want to judge the church on the internet, then you should be discussing the official website of the church.

Why 12 pages? The OP’s question was answered in first two posts.
… you boys really have a lot of spare time, don’t you? :wink:

[quote=“elektronisk”]I wasn’t going to enter this foray but the comments and questions that Tomas raised should be addressed by those pointing the fingers. Isn’t a Christian someone who believes in Jesus Christ? You Christians should spend more time attacking those like me rather than your own.
[/quote]

I don’t think Christians should be attacking anyone.
Personally, I was just answering the OP’s question as I understand it. That being said, Tomas makes a good point. However, for me, if you don’t believe John 3:16-21 you aren’t a Christian. I share certain beliefs with Moslems, but I don’t believe in many of their main tenets, therefore I’m not a Moslem and neither would they consider me one. Same with Buddhism. Much of what they believe is praise worthy and wonderful and I agree with many of the things they believe in, but I’m not a Buddhist either.

No attack intended.

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”][quote=“bismarck”][color=red]we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.[/color]
[color=red]We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the
American
continent[/color]
[color=red]We believe all things[/color][/quote]
So, you found 3 things that your sect doesn’t believe. You think these things are clearly wrong. That’s not a problem with Mormons being Christian. That’s a problem with Mormons being Protestant. And Joseph Smith wrote that specifically to illustrate many of the differences, not just the similarities.[/quote]

Sure, three things that you had there. And one is a biggie for me. I believe there is only one Word of God.

I don’t have a “sect”. I don’t follow organised religion and I’m not an active member of any particular church. I don’t believe that you have to be a Baptist or a Lutheran or whichever brand of Protestant to be saved. In fact, even though I don’t agree with a great deal of Catholic doctrine I still think that many Catholics are good Christians, and perhaps the same can be said of Mormonism?

I haven’t been programmed to believe anything. I’ve read some (although, admittedly not all) of the Book of Mormon, and didn’t find any of it (which I read) to be truly in line with what I believe.
As to the parts I didn’t mark in red? I didn’t highlight them because I basically agree with those points. I thought that was understood.

Sure, why not? I mean, maybe God did create the Marvel universe, too, just, we only get to view it through imagination. God could be the God of an infinite number of universes. So, if you want to believe it is inspired by God and really happens, that’s fine.[/quote]

Sure. You’re welcome to believe that. I just wouldn’t classify such a belief as Christian.

Non-mainstream? I believe in the Bible. Period. If that’s non-mainstream, so be it.

I think you can do the Bible and the Qur’an since they share a common belief in God, but you’ll have difficulty with the parts where Islam considers Jesus just a prophet and not the Messiah. But perhaps you can reconcile them.[/quote]

Which is why I couldn’t be considered Muslim. I have no need to reconcile them. Besides which, they believe Mohammed was a prophet. I don’t. Big problem there wrt reconciling anything as far as the Muslims are concerned.

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]As for incorporating Buddhism, you’ll have to do some serious Marvel-style retconning to get it to jive. It would be easier to subsume Christianity under Buddhism than Buddhism under Christianity.

But, if you could somehow reconcile the doctrinal differences on the key issue of Jesus’ role as the Messiah (and relation to the Father), you would still be called Christian.[/quote]

If it doesn’t gel with the Bible I’m not interested. Other people are free to believe it, but I’d prefer to follow what I feel to be right for me. Mormonism aside, I’m highly suspicious of anyone styling themself as a prophet. Especially if anything that “prophet” says can’t be backed up by the Bible 100%.

[quote]

  1. Jeremiah 5:31
    The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

  2. Jeremiah 14:14
    Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

  3. Lamentations 2:14
    Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.

  4. Matthew 7:15
    Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

  5. Matthew 24:11
    And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

  6. Matthew 24:24
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

  7. Mark 13:22
    For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

  8. Luke 6:26
    Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

  9. 2 Peter 2:1
    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

  10. 1 John 4:1-3
    1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. [/quote]

Bigoted I may be, but this should actually work in the church’s favor.

Let’s consider a parallel issue, which some of you may have read about. Members of the Ahmaddiyya sect regard their 19th century founder as a prophet (though not as one who brought a set of laws superseding those of Muhammad). They claim to be Muslim. Many (maybe most) Muslims question this claim, and in Indonesia right now some conservative groups are asking for the state to disband the sect. So, are the Ahmadis Muslims or not? Who decides?

The attitudes of Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, state-church Protestant, independent Protestant, and sectarian forms of Christianity with respect to one another vary a lot, from group to group (and within them) as well as over time. For example, Catholic pronouncements these days tend to be very polite about Orthodoxy and state-church Protestantism, apathetic towards independent Protestants, and cold towards sects. Orthodox attitudes towards Catholics and Protestants are relatively conservative (though there is no central authority, and in fact many Orthodox factions hate each other even more), and to the sects, outright hostile. State-church Protestants tend to regard the various mainstream denominations as more or less interchangeable, though they raise their eyebrows at groups like the Mormons, UFO cultists, etc.

Support for the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (or at least the doctrines in it) would get what, upwards of 95 percent? Should this matter to the definition of “Christianity”? Should it matter that hardly any of the world’s Christians would consider themselves to be in the same religion as a group which regarded Christ as an alien named Sanandra, or say that he has returned to earth in the person of a Korean man?

On other topics, would it be helpful for me to provide examples in which Mormon authorities abused their positions in various ways? I can’t believe this would ever be in doubt, though I hasten to add that the Catholic Church (and indeed, all authoritarian structures) suffers from the same problems. For those of us who doubt that God has commanded this or that style of religious governance, I suppose we tend to evaluate groups like the Mormons on the basis of perceived cost vs. benefit, good results vs. bad. I.e., is it worth it?

By the way, aren’t we confusing the Mark of Cain with the Curse of Ham? Noah’s son Ham was popularly supposed to be the father of the “Hamatic” (African) race, in contrast to Shem (whence the “Semites”) and Japheth (white people, I guess).

Thank you for the response, Screaming Jesus. This post reveals the level of erudition and objectivity I have come to expect from you, and which is so rare on the religion threads, where many posters hop on the site and spurt a load of bigoted bile without deigning to provide any backup for their hate.

On the question of whether or not it will be helpful to cite specific examples of abuse of power, do what you want. My point, which I probably didn’t make very clear in my last post, is that my personal experience with leaders of the Mormon church was generally very positive. There is a pervasive cultural ethos within the Mormon organization that favors leaders who are benevolent rather than vengeful. Sure, I’ve heard stories of the odd bishop diddling one of the sisters, but overall, I found the Mormon leadership corps to be staffed by people who had their heads on straight.

You might be interested to know that when I was a missionary, we had visits from two members of the Twelve Apostles. I spent the day ferrying Dallin H. Oaks, a senior member of the Twelve Apostles, around the island as his driver (I was an assistant to the president of the mission at the time). Oaks was a great guy, very normal, gracious. He even ate a thousand year old egg without grimacing. Russel M. Ballard, who is also one of the Twelve, was not so nice. He showed up and castigated all of us for not being 100% on the mission rules (e.g. He asked how many of us had held scripture and language study in the morning, and many of could not raise our hands. We had gotten up at 5am and boarded buses and trains to make it to the conference), which pissed my mission president off to no end. But I wouldn’t call his behavior an abuse of power. I think he was just jet lagged and grumpy.

In summary, my personal experience with a few dozen bishops and hundreds of leaders in the Mormon church was universally positive. No abuse of power going on. Remember that until they become General Authorities, these guys all work full time in day jobs. They’re generally just average Joes who have above average commitments to the church. Most of them have a lot more power in their secular jobs than they do in the church.

If by “Word” you mean “Jesus” then that’s 100% correct. If by “Word” you mean “book of scripture” then we think differently.

The Bible is a collection, a compilation. And it was a compilation that was created by a series of Catholic councils (while the individual writings were written by prophets). It is an excellent compilation and it rejected a large number of spurious books and accepted as correct the best of the writings of prophets. But is this a collection of everything God has ever said to anyone?

Did God say the Bible collected by the Catholics was all there is?

Sure, Protestants have said that. So if you believe in something more than the Bible then you’re not a Protestant. Mormons are not Protestants. Ok.

Hey, if you think that then everything is all cool. I don’t care if you think Mormonism has a bunch of incorrect and even heretical doctrines. Of course you think Mormons are heretical, and from your PoV that’s understandable. Mormons have the same opinion of orthodox Christianity :slight_smile:

But we still say they’re Christians.

The other option would be “don’t find particularly wrong, but not necessarily agree”, but I thought you were just glossing over it. Thanks for clarifying.

I would classify it as Christian. As long as they believe Christ is the Son of God and their Savior, I think they should be considered Christian. Their belief in super heroes would be particular to them and not a mainstream belief, but I don’t think it would go against the Bible. I don’t see where the Bible says Spiderman doesn’t exist…

I meant Marvel comics. You asked hypothetically, and I responded hypothetically. Belief in the Bible is mainstream. Belief in Bible + Marvel is outside the mainstream.

You just said “why don’t I make a church…” And I was responding to that comment. If you ask a hypothetical question I will respond to it as if it were true, even though we both know it is not. Don’t mistake my answer for a misunderstanding of your beliefs.

Sure, Muslims are not Christian. They don’t believe in Christ as the Son of God and Savior, or even as the bringer of the whole truth. That’s the basic standard by which to judge whether one is Christian or not.

That’s why you are not Muslim. On the other hand, if they believed in Christ (but they don’t) and just had a belief in Mohammed in addition to Christ, then they would still be Christian. But as they don’t, they aren’t.

Oh, I’m sure you’re clever enough to make it gel with the Bible. (I mean, we’re talking about your hypothetical religion, not mine…) The difficulty would be making it gel with the Qu’ran and some of the core principles of Buddhism. There are some irreconcilable differences if they’re taken literally, so you’ll have to make some adjustments.

Funny thing is, people were highly suspicious of the prophets of their time, too. And if God has a reason to send a prophet, most likely it’s something the other prophets who got included in the Bible collection hadn’t been told to say.

Hey, having a prophet on the earth today is not mainstream Christian. No doubt about it, Mormons aren’t mainstream. But they’re Christian.

[quote]1. Jeremiah 5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

  1. Jeremiah 14:14
    Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.[/quote]
    Yep. I’ve met false prophets. The Bible is certainly true on that. Of course, when Jeremiah wrote that he didn’t mean there wouldn’t be any more prophets ever again. Otherwise every prophet after Jeremiah was false.

So yeah, you have to be careful.

[quote]4. Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.[/quote]
Yes, the true church has always had false prophets attempting to bring it down. The early church had problems with people claiming visions and authority they didn’t have, hoping to gain control over people. Paul spoke of that several times.

Mormons have the same trouble. That’s how groups like the FLDS came about.

[quote]
8. Luke 6:26
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.[/quote]
Luckily, Mormon prophets don’t have that problem…

[quote]
10. 1 John 4:1-3
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.[/quote]
Interestingly, that’s exactly what Mormon missionaries will tell you to do. Pray to God about these things.

So, does the Book of Mormon say and do Mormon prophets say Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, or not? If you read it (and not just excerpts someone trying to debunk it would have you read) you’ll know that the book preaches that Christ is the Son of God and came in the flesh.

Hmm. Sounds like it jives with the Bible to me. Christian.