Are ordinary Russians innocent?

[Liam_Og]

@Brianjones

I was looking at the streets and squares and thinking WTF this place is grotty as hell compared to there.

The other topsy turvy thing I saw today was thousands of Ukrainian refugees sheltering in Turkey. And all being waved through and given accommodation, based on the article I saw.

Also saw an article that mentioned a single parent father who sent his kids aged 12 and under to Poland with no plan and stayed to fight.

[Gain]

@Liam_Og

I don’t think the invasion of Crimea is comparable because the deaths for it can be counted on your fingers. A mostly non violent takeover is always going to be easy to justify, or at very least to pause and then forget about.

Except that wasn’t the only thing that happened. War in Donbas began in 2014 and many people died there too.

@Brianjones

I believe most Russians support this war and somewhat complicit .

At the same time they aren’t getting a true picture of what is going on.

I agree, except I don’t find that a valid excuse at all. Their ignorance is their own problem.

@Brianjones

It looked like a very pleasant and refined place. It’s supposed to be a poorer country but looked way more upmarket than Taiwan.

I don’t think it would look particularly low market if you do a street interview near Taipei 101 either.

[Brianjones]

Yep but they have many beautiful cities there supposedly. Or did. Odessa ，Lviv, Kharkiv, Kviv. Some of them I’d never heard of before. Sad.

[Gain]

My point is those youtube videos are always filmed in good-looking locations. If you venture slightly into the outskirt it would probably look horrific.

[Brianjones]

@Gain

would probably look horrific.

Yep probably could find a chou dofu stand on a corner somewhere.

[Liam_Og]

@Gain

horrific

I’m sure every location was ok untill the bombs started, maybe some air pollution. Cross fingers he doesn’t go there with the chemical weapons

[Liam_Og]

@Brianjones

Some of them I’d never heard of before. Sad.

I’m guessing Mariupol is Mary City which is kinda heartbreaking when you see what is happening to Mary city

We assumed that no one would do that

[Gain]

@Brianjones

Yep probably could find a chou dofu stand on a corner somewhere.

I was thinking Kyiv looked better than say, Dublin, which just looks very bland. Especially considering it probably rains and is really cold almost all the time.

@Liam_Og

I’m sure every location was ok untill the bombs started, maybe some air pollution. Cross fingers he doesn’t go there with the chemical weapons

I mean they would probably look like this.

One can probably find the same situation in Russia, Moldova etc.

[Marco]

@Gain

My point is those youtube videos are always filmed in good-looking locations. If you venture slightly into the outskirt it would probably look horrific.

Yeah, Ukraine is a former Soviet Republic. Spend some time on Street View and outside the city centre and you’ll find commie blocks everywhere. If one wants to compare, compare Xinyi to Kiev’s city centre

[Brianjones]

@Gain

Especially considering it probably rains and is really cold almost all the time

Free air con. No droughts

[Liam_Og]

@Gain

was thinking Kyiv looked better than say, Dublin, which just looks very bland. Especially considering it probably rains and is really cold almost all the time.

Rainy bland is perfectly fine if the rain isn’t bombs.

Talking about the weather, lol

Priorities gain, priorities

[jinyu]

@Brianjones

But there is a vast hinterland of older poorly educated folks too isn’t there. They almost all seem to support this war. But they get all their news from the state TV.

It’s hard to blame people like that. As you say, they get all their news from state-controlled TV. For similar reason it’s hard to blame, for instance, the retired US farmer who supported the war in Iraq (but doesn’t have a clue where Iraq is on the map) because all he hears is how Hussein’s the next Hitler and has WMD and the US has to invade to prevent more terrorist attacks.

I once sat in a kitchen in Russia with a typical babushka. She now recognised Stalin as a zver (beast) but remembered how everyone adored him when she was young. She said she opposed “ethnic Russian being bullied” in places like Ukraine because you hear a lot about that on State TV. Her and her late husband’s favourite movie (I’ve no idea why it so resonated with them): The Last Samurai starring Tom Cruise, a film, according to her, about China and the Chinese samurais.

Most educated Russians supported the annexation of Crimea (I didn’t, although I feel the Western media distorted what happened there, and also that the West’s reaction was hypocritical). Many, including opponents of Putin, were also concerned about things like Nato expansion and the hysterical anti-Russian tone in the Western media. This war, however, is something very different, and my feeling is there’s a great deal of hidden opposition to the war among educated Russians.

[The]

@Brianjones

Me too . It looked like a very pleasant and refined place. It’s supposed to be a poorer country but looked way more upmarket than Taiwan. Lots of cultural sites I was not aware of.

Yep, Odessa looks magnificent. Nothing like this in Taiwan. By appearance large part of Taiwan looks like Cuba. With streets devolpment stopped in 50s

[crusher]

@Gain

My point is those youtube videos are always filmed in good-looking locations. If you venture slightly into the outskirt it would probably look horrific.

Yeah， I have been there， pretty grotty in most parts. Lots of concrete housing projects and pollution. Of course the tourist areas are nice. The same is true of Poland.

[Charlie_Jack]

@Liam_Og

Why people were willing to not think about it when it was Syria is another question.

I thought I mentioned this article 'way back when, but I can’t find it on the board, so maybe I just read it and didn’t share it.

Back in 2013, @Nuit shared another article about events in Aleppo, but not about the bombardment.

[crusher]

Right back on topic

What young Russians think about Putin?

[Gain]

@jinyu

It’s hard to blame people like that. As you say, they get all their news from state-controlled TV. For similar reason it’s hard to blame, for instance, the retired US farmer who supported the war in Iraq (but doesn’t have a clue where Iraq is on the map) because all he hears is how Hussein’s the next Hitler and has WMD and the US has to invade to prevent more terrorist attacks.

It isn’t hard to blame people like that. I don’t know is not an excuse.

@jinyu

Most educated Russians supported the annexation of Crimea (I didn’t, although I feel the Western media distorted what happened there, and also that the West’s reaction was hypocritical). Many, including opponents of Putin, were also concerned about things like Nato expansion and the hysterical anti-Russian tone in the Western media. This war, however, is something very different, and my feeling is there’s a great deal of hidden opposition to the war among educated Russians.

This is exactly why Russians are guilty. It’s the same with Chinese people.

[hansioux]

@Brianjones

Yep but they have many beautiful cities there supposedly. Or did. Odessa ，Lviv, Kharkiv, Kviv. Some of them I’d never heard of before. Sad.

Yeah, Putin happened to Ukraine. CKS happened to Taiwan.

Before the KMT occupation, most cities are beautiful in Taiwan as well.

[Whatevah]

@Brianjones

Me too . It looked like a very pleasant and refined place. It’s supposed to be a poorer country but looked way more upmarket than Taiwan. Lots of cultural sites I was not aware of.

I believe Moscow and St. Petersburg are as rich as Scandinavian countries (well used to be at least). The rest of the country is piss poor though.

[jinyu]

@Gain

This is exactly why Russians are guilty. It’s the same with Chinese people.

Then people from the US, the UK and Australia are guilty a fortiori - after all there’s some level of democracy in these countries and somewhat easier access to objective media.