Are Taiwanese Far Too Unrealistic Academically?

I used to think it was outrageous that buxibans (and schools) would “lie” to parents about their kids’ abilities by inflating grades, passing them up to the next level, etc.

Then I came to realise that often, people want to be lied to. It reminds me of that scene in Brave New World where the protagonist tries to deny the Deltas or Gammas (or whatever they were) their soma. Things exist for a reason. If the underlying society and culture were not rotten to the core, the education system (public, private, extra-curricular, whatever) wouldn’t be either. If people are being exploited or lied to, it’s often because at some deeper level, it’s what they really want. Otherwise, they’d kick up a fuss and things would change. The same can be applied to most human interactions from romance to politics.

Yes, my old man is about as Swedish as you can get, although he’s changed as he got older, but he had the same upbringing and worse I guess. From some of the stories I’ve heard he had to go out and break his own twigs that his old man then used to spank him with, at least I never had to do that…
Kids here get a beating too, but here it’s “ok” unlike where I come from where it’s considered child abuse.

If my girlfriend got a beating in school, she got twice as bad when she got home… but I don’t think that makes you want to behave better or work harder or what not, it just makes you angry and in the long run you end up resenting of not hating those people.

Anyhow, a bit off topic there, but to me it seems like kids here get brain washed and force fed, they don’t learn shit and I thought that was what really mattered in school, but it seems I was wrong…

I nearly lost my shit the other day when one of my private students (who is in the advanced math/science class of her high school) told me that she is not expected to learn history or geography for her remaining two years in high school because it was deemed unimportant.

Of course, high school history is no more than memorizing a series of dates to match events that mean nothing in historical context to the next date on the test. But that’s not the point.

It’s not only a problem of pressure, memorization and brain-washing. Priorities are so screwed up. How can an entire system be so heavily valued to one side (math/science) and have such a disregard for other, equally important subjects.

Are the Taiwanese unrealistic academically?

Well if you eliminate things such as arts/humanities, sports, hobbies, extra-culliculars, friends, and a life for your kids and extract a pure solution of math/science for every kid on the island, perhaps not. It’s not unrealisitic, it’s a massive weeding out process in order to create a nation of robot doctors, scientists, computer programmers and crooked businessmen.

Those weeded out will carry on for a few years before ending up under the front wheels of a robot doctor’s Lexus.

OK I kid, but there’s a point in there somewhere.

Has any country got the right balance?

British education is bollocks.

If I’d had a little discipline and structure in my teens, my 20s would have been a hell of a lot easier. If I’d studied maths and science beyond the age of 16 & 14, I’d be less stupid.

(youtube.com/watch?v=nj-YNDUVzqw)

[quote=“Ecaps”] How can an entire system be so heavily valued to one side (math/science) and have such a disregard for other, equally important subjects.

Well if you eliminate things such as arts/humanities, sports, hobbies, extra-culliculars, friends, and a life for your kids and extract a pure solution of math/science for every kid on the island, perhaps not. [/quote]

I don’t think it’s an exclusive Taiwan thing but an Asian/Middle Eastern thing. I grew up in the UAE and went to an “international school” there (although mainly various Arab nationalities + Indians & Pakistanis and a few Asians…most of the UK & US expat kids went to the specific “English” or “American” schools) - anyway, my school was popular because it had a reputation as being very academic and churning out kids who got into universities (often top ones in other countries). But the reality was - it was a terrible, biased, poor education.

We were segregated at about 14 into 2 streams of classes: Science and Arts (so if you’re in a Science class, you just did Physics, Chemistry & Biology and Pure Maths/Calculus/Geometry/Statistics, etc - and a token English class - for 8 hours a day! No art or music or PE either) and although it was supposed to be equal choice between them, it wasn’t really. The Arts subjects (Literature, History, Philosophy, Geography, etc) were looked down upon and any “good kid” would never dream of voluntarily opting for the Arts classes…basically, that’s where the kids who were at the bottom of the class were put and the ones who got good grades always went into the Science stream.

It was really hard if you were someone like me who did well in class but was actually more of a literary/arts bent but you just knew that you couldn’t possibly choose to go into the Arts stream. Aside from your parents’ horror and everyone in school (incl teachers) disapproving - you yourself, as a high achiever, did not want to spend the last 4 years of your high school in a class with a bunch of kids who just threw paper balls at each other and sat the back chewing gum, ignoring the teacher all the time, etc, etc…so you were basically forced into the Science stream if you were any kind of self-respecting student keen to achieve. It’s so sad - if there was any respect for the Arts subjects, there wouldn’t have been this situation.

And this wasn’t an “Asian” school - there were probably only about 5 Asians in the school in total, in my time - but it was still a view held by the Indians and Arab ethnicities - they have the same hero-worhip of the “professions” - the lawyers, doctors, accountants, etc and they’re completely convinced that the Science subjects are superior to the Arts ones so any child who was smart and good would of course do Science subjects - the only reason you would do Arts ones was because you were too dumb to do Science… :frowning:

I ended up doing Biology as a degree at university because it was the only one of the Sciences I had any real interest in (and only really as far as the fact that I love animals!) - I should really have done English or Literature or something but sadly, by that stage, after 4/5 yrs of doing exclusively Science subjects, I wasn’t fit to get accepted for a degree in any of the Arts topics. So it’s terrible - that kind of school system precludes you from even making a free choice at university level. Thank God, I saw sense after university and although I did try a couple of “proper” jobs to continue “doing the right thing” - I eventually found my way back to my first love and interests and overcame the shame of actually enjoying the Arts more than the Sciences - but God, what a lot of wasted time and energy!! :unamused:

I know it sounds really prestigious to say that your child is a high achiever in an academic school and got into a top university but if I ever had a child, I would never put them back in the situation I was in. I’d prefer they went to a school that gave them a more rounded education and allowed them to develop their full potential in whatever direction that happened to be. That’s really loving them for who they are, as opposed to how they reflect on you and what status they bring to you as the parent…

You know, I never understand why people accuse me of being selfish for NOT having any children - when it seems to me that an awful lot of people have children for very selfish reasons!!! :fume:

H’sin-'Yi

I think the I.B. (International Baccalaureate) is an excellent system. The whole point of it is to produce well-rounded individuals. Not only must students study a range of subjects in different areas (I think from six different areas), but off the top of my head, they have three other compulsory areas: a subject on critical thinking/thinking for its own sake, a major research project, and some sort of community service. There’s a younger years programme, and the diploma programme (last two years) is internationally recognised.

The interesting thing about the I.B. is that in many of the top private schools in Melbourne (and presumably other places too), it’s not only offered, but encouraged, and it’s considered much harder than the local curriculum. The kids who do it are super, super smart and they (and their teachers and parents) don’t look down on them studying non-science subjects as part of the programme at all. Amongst the “right” people, studying a very narrowly focussed programme for professional achievement is considered a bit low brow.

When I was studying to be a teacher, my psych teacher (who worked at one of the top private schools) brought in the V.C.E. (local curriculum) exam and the I.B. exam. The V.C.E. exam was a bunch of short answer and multiple choice questions. The I.B. exam had this question: “discuss the epistemological bias inherent in the behaviourist approach to psychology”. Then, he also told us that one of his students chose to do her major project in psych. She designed, conducted and number crunched her own small psychological study! I knew right then what a crock of shit all these local curricula were. I wish we’d had it at my school. I felt so underwhelmed in high school.

I think it’s because those professions make huge amounts of money. Bringing in buckets of cash every year spells ‘RESPECT’ in pretty much any capitalist culture today.

GuyInTaiwan, IB FTW! Fantastic program.

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]I think the I.B. (International Baccalaureate) is an excellent system. The whole point of it is to produce well-rounded individuals. Not only must students study a range of subjects in different areas (I think from six different areas), but off the top of my head, they have three other compulsory areas: a subject on critical thinking/thinking for its own sake, a major research project, and some sort of community service. There’s a younger years programme, and the diploma programme (last two years) is internationally recognised.

The interesting thing about the I.B. is that in many of the top private schools in Melbourne (and presumably other places too), it’s not only offered, but encouraged, and it’s considered much harder than the local curriculum. The kids who do it are super, super smart and they (and their teachers and parents) don’t look down on them studying non-science subjects as part of the programme at all. Amongst the “right” people, studying a very narrowly focussed programme for professional achievement is considered a bit low brow.

When I was studying to be a teacher, my psych teacher (who worked at one of the top private schools) brought in the V.C.E. (local curriculum) exam and the I.B. exam. The V.C.E. exam was a bunch of short answer and multiple choice questions. The I.B. exam had this question: “discuss the epistemological bias inherent in the behaviourist approach to psychology”. Then, he also told us that one of his students chose to do her major project in psych. She designed, conducted and number crunched her own small psychological study! I knew right then what a crock of shit all these local curricula were. I wish we’d had it at my school. I felt so underwhelmed in high school.[/quote]

The Dallas ISD keynote speaker this year. dallasisd.org/keynote.htm Pretty impressive, eh? He’s 12 years old. They use this video to inspire new teachers, as well as vets left beind in the trenches. Then they anounce new regulations on grading that say that A) high school kids cannot be assigned more than 10 hours of homework a week, B) poor homework grades will be thrown out and only the highest homework grades will be counted, F) students will be allowed to re-take all major exams and only the highest grade earned will be recorded.

So, basically, students simply need to show up. What little homework they’re required to hand in will only count if they’ve done well on it, and they can even have a practice run on any important exam. Whatever it takes to ensure high rates of graduation and federal funding retention.

But what really gets me is the rhetoric that this is good for the students. Is graduation good for a student? Only if his diploma means something. Is increasing the number of graduates good for Dallas ISD? Of course!

It’s amazing what standardized testing can do for (to) education. Of course, IN education they one must be politically correct and talk about how teachers who don’t support this system are lazy and use it as an excuse not to do their jobs–or risk being labled a “bad teacher.” Buy the rhetoric or you’re part of the problem.

How am I EVER going to work in this country!!?? :s

I love the I.B. programs and one of the best perks I can think of about international schools is that many of the best of them offer these and my son would have a shot at doing this if I were teaching in one. I’m very torn between trying to “put down roots,” as I’m quite tired of moving, and taking off again because I don’t like the education system I’m studying to be a part of. :cry:

housecat: I believe what you’re talking about is probably happening in a lot of places. The dumbing down of education does not bode well for places like the U.S. or Australia if they wish to remain competitive, although having a dumb, complicit, dependent populace makes for great social control.

I heard a couple of statistics about my own state (Victoria) in Australia. Apparently, 30% of students are not enrolled in the government system, and also, I heard that the independent sector is growing at about 1% per annum. The fastest growth area is in small, community based (often religious) schools. Advocates of the government system say these are the people running down the government system by making it a system of last resort. It makes me wonder how it would cope if all these kids suddenly went back to the government system. Moreover, maybe the issue is that parents are sick of having some wishy washy education crammed down their kids’ throats, coupled with a leftist race to the bottom, coupled with appalling behaviour. I used to be a substitute teacher in both the public and private systems, and my experiences therein have led me to the position that at no costs will I ever send my kids through the government education system in Australia. I’ll homeschool or private school if I ever move back there, and that’s a very big if for a whole lot of other (often government related) reasons too.