A few days ago I was teaching an adult class and a student told me that she was an accountant. She told me that she doesn’t like it when clients complain about her to her boss. She would prefer that her clients talk directly to her. The week before that, a local told me that one thing she doesn’t like about Taiwanese culture is there method of going directly to people’s bosses when they have a problem and getting them into trouble, instead of going to the person they have a problem with it.
As a teacher, I have had a big problem when students have gone to my boss with an issue that they could have easily come to me with and got me into trouble. They said it was hard to talk to me directly. But I have had two conversations with Taiwanese this week where they said they do not like the indirect Taiwanese way of solving issues and prefer the western way, where we say that it is best to tell the person you have a problem with.
Does anybody think the Taiwanese are changing in this way .
I hate to over-simplify what is a complex behaviour. However, in general, there are practical reasons for being indirect. Look at the helmet beating thread for a good reason why people here prefer not to deal with others directly whenever there is a problem. If you hear Taiwanese refer to someone as “so direct,” it is almost always not a compliment. Rather than being seen as too direct, and risking intense negative reactions and all that can bring, local people often prefer to enlist the help of a trusted intermediary to mediate disputes.
But by doing that, they are turning you in to the boss without you getting a fair trial. You get little chance to tell your side of the story. In doing things indirectly, it is like the Taiwanese are trying to present their arguments unfairly so you can’t argue back.
But by doing that, they are turning you in to the boss without you getting a fair trial. You get little chance to tell your side of the story. In doing things indirectly, it is like the Taiwanese are trying to present their arguments unfairly so you can’t argue back.[/quote]
You’re not dealing with an egalitarian mentality. Nobody really cares for your side of things (and often the stated reason for the complaint has little to do with the actual reasons for it, anyway). By going to your boss, it is hoped you will be told to correct your ways and you, being an obedient employee, will say, “yes manager! I will try harder!”
But what I was originally saying was that it seems that they do this to each other too. And it seems that some of them even don’t like it much. And when they are dealing with a foreigner, these things often blow up in the face of the one doing the complaining.
For sure, this behavior is one of the many reasons that the Taiwanese (and Chinese) are such push-overs. From the part of the world i’m originally from, the bahavior you describe here would be known simply as ‘chicken-shit’. It is a spineless and deplorable ‘toe-trampling’ that is absolutely contrary to the powerful cultures that run this world, and for good reason.
If you go directly to a boss with a quandary back in America, you best be prepared to reap the possible consequences of this dis. In regular America, you will likely fear some form of retaliation, whether it be assault,battery or assault and battery. In the Philippines, you would almost certainly be maimed or killed, and in Riverside…well…no one is stupid enough to do this sort of thing there!
The point: No one fights for what they think is right here in China, so people get away with ‘chicken-shit’ behaviors.
The solution: Scare em’! Taiwanese back down from crazy. They don’t understand it and they are scared of everything. If you’re not willing to freak em’ out a bit, then you are just going to get more of the same ‘bitch-ass’ behavior that is allowed to go on in this culture.
To answer this thread: Is this behavior really changing? How would I know? There are 23 million of them and maybe a few hundred of us, most of whom are English teachers, go to school or translate/edit shit in our living rooms. how could we possibly quantify a change? My guess though; no. I just had a situation at my work happen the other day where a person went strait to my boss. I opted to demonstrate to this person how this sort of thing is resolved in my homeland. needless to say, they almost certainly won’t be doing it again…
I agree with this. It’s like the Taiwanese stir up a hornet’s nest for other people, but they do it from behind a wall of cover so they don’t get sprayed when the shit hits the fan.
There’s another thread going right now that seems a bit contrary to this one where some foreigner desided to tell a local how he should be raising his children (The [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/beaten-up-for-commenting-on-helmetless-kids/69286/1 on the kids[/url] thread).
That thread would leave you to believe that dealing with something face to face is dangerous and will summon a sort of subcutaneous Taiwanese monster that will beat you for your brash musings. I just don’t see it. of course things like this could happen,
but
The comments and discussion occurring are largely anecdotal and I believe it all comes down to Taiwan being a ‘fear-full’ society. Paranoia runs deep here, so if it is believed that direct confrontation leads to violence, then doing the least confrontational thing (in this example telling your boss) is a more understandable behavior. In fact, doing the thing that will lead to the least amount of confrontation/responsibility is another of Taiwan’s despicable habits. There is such a fear of being wrong and having to ‘answer’ for one’s mistake, that the answer to your good and insightful inquiry is always met with a ‘no’.
Your being a foreigner has nothing to do with anything. And maybe some don’t always like it, much like you may not like confronting some people and telling them things they don’t want to hear. Point is, it is standard practice here and for good reason.
This is ethnocentric garbage. I’m sure Taiwanese would say western communication styles are the reasons we are so arrogant, over-confident and confrontational. Try not to be so judgemental in your assessment of other cultures’ practices.
If I’m a client / customer and the person I’m dealing with is not doing their job properly, you can bet your arse I’ll be speaking to their boss about it, unless it’s very minor and inconsequential. There’s nothing Taiwanese about it - people do that all over the world.
There’s nothing “chicken-shit” or “spineless” about it. Avoiding confrontation is almost always the best policy because nothing gets done / fixed when emotions are high during a dispute. Avoid that and positive results are much more likely.
If you go directly to a boss with a quandary back in America, you best be prepared to reap the possible consequences of this dis. In regular America, you will likely fear some form of retaliation, whether it be assault,battery or assault and battery. In the Philippines, you would almost certainly be maimed or killed, and in Riverside…well…no one is stupid enough to do this sort of thing there!
T[/quote]
I don’t know Big T, I have gone directly to my boss before in the USA when I heard racial slurs that I thought were totally out of hand. I wasn’t thrown off a building or whatever.
No. Bad emotions arise from spinelessly talking to the boss about your co-worker.
A open and direct communication will clear things up. Avoiding confrontation the way you describe it here actually means back stabbing and creates tension, drama and hate here on the island. It is a vicious circle.
Why can’t people here talk things out face to face in a calm manner if they are all so nice?
No. Bad emotions arise from spinelessly talking to the boss about your co-worker.
A open and direct communication will clear things up. Avoiding confrontation the way you describe it here actually means back stabbing and creates tension, drama and hate here on the island. It is a vicious circle.
Why can’t people here talk things out face to face in a calm manner if they are all so nice?[/quote]
The issue in the OP was about clients / customers, not co-workers.
For sure, this behavior is one of the many reasons that the Taiwanese (and Chinese) are such push-overs. From the part of the world i’m originally from, the bahavior you describe here would be known simply as ‘chicken-shit’. It is a spineless and deplorable ‘toe-trampling’ that is absolutely contrary to the powerful cultures that run this world, and for good reason.
If you go directly to a boss with a quandary back in America, you best be prepared to reap the possible consequences of this dis. In regular America, you will likely fear some form of retaliation, whether it be assault,battery or assault and battery. In the Philippines, you would almost certainly be maimed or killed, and in Riverside…well…no one is stupid enough to do this sort of thing there!
The point: No one fights for what they think is right here in China, so people get away with ‘chicken-shit’ behaviors.
The solution: Scare em’! Taiwanese back down from crazy. They don’t understand it and they are scared of everything. If you’re not willing to freak em’ out a bit, then you are just going to get more of the same ‘bitch-ass’ behavior that is allowed to go on in this culture.
To answer this thread: Is this behavior really changing? How would I know? There are 23 million of them and maybe a few hundred of us, most of whom are English teachers, go to school or translate/edit shit in our living rooms. how could we possibly quantify a change? My guess though; no. I just had a situation at my work happen the other day where a person went strait to my boss. I opted to demonstrate to this person how this sort of thing is resolved in my homeland. needless to say, they almost certainly won’t be doing it again…
T[/quote]
T has this right in so many ways. The Taiwanese and Chinese react positively to crazy.
Just so I’m clear. The premise of this thread is that in Taiwan there is a tendancy in the workplace and in business to engage in sneaky and generally cowardly behaviour and this some how contrast with the West where there is some code of honor that prevents this from happening and when it does occurr it is confronted and possibly met by some level of violence. Is my assumption here more or less correct?
If so, the premise is a complete joke. I worked in corporate North America for about 15 years. I can tell you that this kind of behaviour is rife in that environment.
[quote=“Gman”]Just so I’m clear. The premise of this thread is that in Taiwan there is a tendancy in the workplace and in business to engage in sneaky and generally cowardly behaviour and this some how contrast with the West where there is some code of honor that prevents this from happening and when it does occurr it is confronted and possibly met by some level of violence. Is my assumption here more or less correct?
If so, the premise is a complete joke. I worked in corporate North America for about 15 years. I can tell you that this kind of behaviour is rife in that environment.[/quote]
100% correct. I have worked in corporates too. People will stab you in the back just as often.
[quote=“cfimages”]If I’m a client / customer and the person I’m dealing with is not doing their job properly, you can bet your arse I’ll be speaking to their boss about it, unless it’s very minor and inconsequential. There’s nothing Taiwanese about it - people do that all over the world.
There’s nothing “chicken-shit” or “spineless” about it. Avoiding confrontation is almost always the best policy because nothing gets done / fixed when emotions are high during a dispute. Avoid that and positive results are much more likely.[/quote]
I don’t believe there is anything wrong with speaking directly to the person you are having a problem with. If done in a professional manner, with respect to the other person’s point of view, it can get things done and improve relations.
If a boss is involved, a good boss will tell you to go to that person and tell them exactly what you told the boss. If that doesn’t work, then the boss can get involved, but with both of you in his office so he can get bothe sides of the story.
[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”]A few days ago I was teaching an adult class and a student told me that she was an accountant. She told me that she doesn’t like it when clients complain about her to her boss. She would prefer that her clients talk directly to her. The week before that, a local told me that one thing she doesn’t like about Taiwanese culture is there method of going directly to people’s bosses when they have a problem and getting them into trouble, instead of going to the person they have a problem with it.
As a teacher, I have had a big problem when students have gone to my boss with an issue that they could have easily come to me with and got me into trouble. They said it was hard to talk to me directly. But I have had two conversations with Taiwanese this week where they said they do not like the indirect Taiwanese way of solving issues and prefer the western way, where we say that it is best to tell the person you have a problem with.
Does anybody think the Taiwanese are changing in this way .[/quote]
I think it depend what she do that make person complain.
Like maybe she steal client money.
If client complain to she, she give back money.
No problem, she just steal next client money.
But maybe man think she steal money is a bad person and want she lose job.
This just example.
Maybe she just not polite.
You do not know what happen you cannot say what right what wrong.
[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”][quote=“cfimages”]If I’m a client / customer and the person I’m dealing with is not doing their job properly, you can bet your arse I’ll be speaking to their boss about it, unless it’s very minor and inconsequential. There’s nothing Taiwanese about it - people do that all over the world.
There’s nothing “chicken-shit” or “spineless” about it. Avoiding confrontation is almost always the best policy because nothing gets done / fixed when emotions are high during a dispute. Avoid that and positive results are much more likely.[/quote]
I don’t believe there is anything wrong with speaking directly to the person you are having a problem with. If done in a professional manner, with respect to the other person’s point of view, it can get things done and improve relations.
If a boss is involved, a good boss will tell you to go to that person and tell them exactly what you told the boss. If that doesn’t work, then the boss can get involved, but with both of you in his office so he can get bothe sides of the story.[/quote]
People in general don’t like to be criticized to their faces. They might get rude or start thinking of revenge. If you have a complaint, it’s almost always safer, easier and less painful to go straight to the boss.
[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”][quote=“cfimages”]If I’m a client / customer and the person I’m dealing with is not doing their job properly, you can bet your arse I’ll be speaking to their boss about it, unless it’s very minor and inconsequential. There’s nothing Taiwanese about it - people do that all over the world.
There’s nothing “chicken-shit” or “spineless” about it. Avoiding confrontation is almost always the best policy because nothing gets done / fixed when emotions are high during a dispute. Avoid that and positive results are much more likely.[/quote]
I don’t believe there is anything wrong with speaking directly to the person you are having a problem with. If done in a professional manner, with respect to the other person’s point of view, it can get things done and improve relations.
If a boss is involved, a good boss will tell you to go to that person and tell them exactly what you told the boss. If that doesn’t work, then the boss can get involved, but with both of you in his office so he can get bothe sides of the story.[/quote]
Sounds like a good justification for the superiority of your own culture. Sorry if the local one doesn’t live up to your standards.
.