okay they can kick my ass. but today i was watching a match on TV and there were some holds for which there were some pretty obvious ways of getting out of , but it’s like they never even thought of them. i’m just wondering if for all their “unhindered, all useful” combat if they are not stuck in a style. i saw moves that i KNOW i could’ve gotten out of. of course, then i’d run like hell, but still i could’ve busted out. are pressure points and finger locks disallowed or something? how bout the thumbs pushing in the carotoid? how bout the edge hand pushing under the nose?how bout knuckles digging on the funny bone pushing to an arm lock and break? (i fight dirty cause i’m small). how bout the cross stomp to the inside of the knee followed by an elbow cocked under his left nipple. how bout the pheonix fist digging between his ear and jaw? where’s all the “real” fighting? they can’t do it cause they’re wearing gloves. there are ten weapons on the hand and the fist is only one of them. gloves make it not real. just my opinion.
when you have rules you have a sport. which is why i’l never get in the ring with a boxer. there’s no bar stool or bottles in a boxing ring to hit him with. no drink to throw in his face. no hard soled italian shoes to shove up his groin or slam the tips into his knee with. no MRT card to run across his throat or his wrist. don’t gross out, THIS is fighting, THAT’s a sport.
I thought I’d answered this one before, but here goes again…you might also want to check the entire post that this comes from. The replies from Andy Wang and Vay are quite insightful.
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … c&&start=0
scott i think i went a little overboard kidding wround with the fight humor there. but i do wish to make a point: these guys were missing a lot of obvious escapes. they could have flipped over and pinned the guy. i think even a untrained person would have done that. stuff you’ve been doing since grade school they didn’t seem to know.
i disagree that dirty tricks don’t make a difference. if they didn’t then why are they illegal? a thumb in the eye used to be a devastating technique for cheat winning in boxing. look over my list above. you’re telling me they would have no effect? hope i never have the chance to prove them, but they’re pretty nasty don’t you think?
So ran, which martial art do you do then? Or how many of these “real” fights have you been in?
I’m quite interested in who he was watching.
My own opinion, I think the guys in Pride are the ultimate fighters. I don’t care how many knees to the groin, steel fists of death to the windpipe, bottles or bar-stools are available, I still wouldn’t want to face Fedor.
Tetsuo is right on. If you believe all the armchair warriors, Tito Ortiz must be a pushover. Rantheman, I think you might find it a little more difficult than you imagine to stick your finger in the eye of Chuck Lidell. Honestly, I recommend that you reread the whole thread that I posted above. This has all been dealt with by better, more informed fighters than we have here.
Tito is the best UFC fighter I have ever seen. The guy is in sick shape and is really one of the few guys fighting who can take it as well as dish it out.
I recall him beating Ken Shamrock mercilessly…and not breathing hard.
He’s da man!
As absolutely impressive as those people “appear” on television, facing them in the ring would be like facing a vengeful god. You or I would be lucky to hit them with spit.
I’d catch him in the parking lot, at night, with a crowbar. 
You could not pay me enough to even take a hit and get knocked out from one of those guys.
No no no. :loco:
“Dirty” moves do help period despite what your teacher may say. However why is it that people think anyone fighting in UFC is also not able to use them when fighting in the street.! In the street the best UFC fighters can use dirty tricks too! (statement of the obvious that some people seem to miss)
However learn good basics first ie learn how to box and wrestle, then add in your dirty tricks in a street fight. But if dirty tricks is all you got then it is not enough against a good fighter ! But for fighters of roughly similar abilities then yeah of course they help.
Incidentaly hair pulling can be useful, look at the fight Hoyce Gracie imo would of lost against a steroid pumped Kimo. How was that fight decided ? Well, mainly by Gracie grabbing hold off his pony tail and using it for leaverage. There are also a fair few incidents of UFC fighters getting “accidentaly”(yeah right) fingered in the eye. It usually ends the fight prematurely.
So of course they can help, but they don’t make up for an out of condition untrained fighter!
i’m not worried about “good” fighters. i’m worried about stupid people who come up to me and try to hurt me. for them i reserve all my dirty tricks. hope they work. good fighters would’nt mess with me anyway.
Or there was that funny little Asian guy who fought about the same time as Kimo who was getting his butt kicked in one match, so he yanked on the other guy’s underwear for most of the match, pulling it up his crack. But he lost anyway and I believe they didn’t invite him back again after that. Or at least that’s my recollection.
I agree dirty moves – a finger in the eye, kick to the groin, pinching, biting or hair pulling – might hurt the opponent, but in the long run such moves will probably only infuriate the opponent and kicking, punching and grappling skills will be far more decisive.
Good grief, guys, the best fighter - at the level where champions are determined among very similarly-skilled warriors - will always be the most dominating. That’s the only style that counts - if it counts as a style, that is.
Do you forget your childhoods? It’s the man who’ll force any taker to quit, simple as that. To be clear, “to quit”=your opoonent wants to regroup on a time schedule other than yours.
It’s very simple, really. In fact, we all, as men, dearly covet this simplicity.
And that’s reallly all she wrote.
Anything else is what, boring. 
Well, this is why I made my thread about BS in fighting. It’s amazing what some people, people with 3 fights in their whole lives, will believe.
Nothing makes up for solid fundamentals. All things equal, dirty tricks may help. But if you can’s punch straight, defend yourself on the ground properly, you poking his eyes and all that won’t save you.
I’ll give you a great example. I love playing basketball so we used to play the school kids at my last job and I could slow them down by tugging their shorts and pushing off hard and all that dirty stuff. It worked because it frustrated the kids, plus I was a lot stronger. Then I played in some games with grown men and that crap didn’t help me one iota because the better players that were the same size and strength as me overpowered me with their dribbling, boxing-out, etc. and technical proficiency.
Relying on “tricks” only works on chumps; somebody that knows what’s up will overwhelm you with technique 99% of the time.
Andy Wang
wangbjj@gmail.com
good post.
since when did UFC become a holy entity? you guys seem to think it’s the end all. i can’t see where two muscle bound morons rolling around on the floor punching each other counts as martial arts? i’ve seen better fights in high school.
I dunno, I don’t think I would want to meet these guys on the mat…they might hurt me in a bad way. 
…and getting hurt really sucks.
Seriously though, think it is important to give respect to all martial arts as they all have something you can learn. Of course they all have aspects that might not be practical in real life. I can’t for the life of me understand why I need to master a "four-corner throw’ from a kneeling position. I just tell my instructor that I would never drink tea with someone not sitting in a chair. 
But when I do that I get volunteered to be the “uke”…which is a real bummer.
I think it is important to give respect to anybody who has trained hard to become a better person, be it UFC or paper-scissors-stones.
No more talking. Come spar one day, find out.
A rear naked choke is worth a thousand words. 
I really know how you feel, and you obviously haven’t tried any of the stuff. One thing you have to factor in (in a BIG way) is fatigue.
We weren’t punching and kicking, but while sparring the first time at Andy’s place and finding myself on my back with this big guy sitting on top of me I found out that putting my legs over his head and/or twisting my way around and up didn’t work out the way it did on my mental chalkboard. Especially when I when tired, that guy had to do a lot of work to get me in that position and when he had it, I didn’t have a lot of gas left for struggling about.
And DB, I have gotten to experience a few Akido joint locks and they are very unfun (in a really fun way).
One more post before I get back to work…
I think a lot of what one chooses to study depends on the personality of the person. I like the defensive aspect of a “battle” though Napoleon would slap my face for saying that, and that’s one of the reasons why I study Aikido.
I was always undersized in sports. In high school, I was a 190 lbs. outside linebacker lining up against tackles who were anywhere from 240-280 lbs.( it didn’t help that I look like Timmy Osmond). But I used a quick step and leverage to avoid getting killed. I played power forward and some center (I’m around six foot three depending on how much I slouch) on my high school basketball team going against guys who where any where from six-six to six-eleven ( Yeah Robert Locke. I remember putting it back in your face, you wookie). And I averaged 18 points and 10 boards a game… again using leverage (and an awesome shot). Aikido just seemed a natural extension of what I always had to do to be a productive athelete. And I think that’s the same with most people studying an Art. Studying something that fits your personal needs.
After reading Andy Wang’s bio I can see the where’s and why’s he studies what he studies. He is a product of his environment. He has chosen his martial path that best suits him as a student/teacher and as a person…and that is what this is all about.
Not all of them are muscle bound. Hoyce gracie is certainly not, neither is Igor vochainkin. The surprising thing about the UFC in the early days is that, in many cases it was exactly the opposite to what you were just saying; i.e. non muscle bound martial artists beating muscle bound ones. UFC is certainly not the be all and the end all, but it is a very very good test of a fighters ability to fight! Certainly better than olympic tae kwon do or the demonstations of Kung Fu I have seen. but then excuse me if i am wrong about tai kwon do or Kung fu as i just might be as ignorant about these arts as you are about MMA!