Are you jugmental, or do you just have opinions?

Discussion Open Forum
1

A few weeks ago, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, and I expressed negative opinions about someone (person X) who did both of us wrong. This friend of mine is 57 years old, and she’s an amazing lady. I have a lot of respect for her. Upon hearing my negative comment, she said to me: “I don’t really like to get into judging people this way.” I replied that I was not judging person X. I said “I’m not judging him, I’m expressing my opinion regarding his opinion.” She added: “but that’s what judging is.”

It made me think, and I think that despite all the respect I have for my lady friend, I think she’s wrong. I think it’s OK to have our own opinions, and not only it’s OK, but I think it’s important to stand up for what we believe, and for what we are. Our beliefs are representative of who we are, and we should be able to face criticism, and sometimes be willing to take the flack for our own opinions. (not always easy)

I’m not a big fan of Kant, and I don’t know his work in English. Here’s one thing he wrote, however, that stuck with me as an important value in the way I choose to live my life: “Ais le courage de ton propre entendement” It basically means that one should have the courage and the integrity to own up to what he/she believes. According to Samuel Kant, if you can’t own up to your own thoughts and beliefs, the same thoughts and beliefs are worthless.

This said, where do you draw the line? Is it OK to be judgmental if you think someone is an idiot? Is it OK to say “you are being selfish” if that’s honestly what you believe? Is it fair to express your opinions even though they may belittle someone or make someone feel bad?

Many examples can be seen on this forum where someone will express his/her opinion while the same will contradict someone else’s opinion to the point where the recipient of the said opinion will feel ridiculed, offended, and of course, judged.

Is it fair to say that you are being judgmental by expressing it?(Your opinion) So the question is, at what point do your opinions amount to make you a judgmental person? Or is it all just the same? (having opinions that others don’t like to hear)

This said, if someone was to not like your opinion and feel judged as a result, would that person be even more judgmental to say “you are being judgmental?” Is it not the coward way? The easy way out of backing up your own opinion to label someone judgmental when they disagree with you?

Then of course, there’s the situation where someone will express an opinion without knowing all the facts, and therefore that same person could turn out to be wrong, and perhaps judgmental. But still, if you don’t know all the facts, then your opinion is based on what you know, and it’s not said that you will not change your opinion when new information is brought to light. An apology may be in order, and if apologies are made, then there’s no foul, no?

What am I missing here? Respect for others opinion? But of course. That goes without saying.

I’m asking because I’m a fervent believer that we should say what we think. I think it’s better than not saying it. This way, we know what others think, and others know what we think. Call it tough love or blunt honesty if you like. The hell with losing face if I have to. I’d prefer that anytime over you withholding your thoughts.

So what do you think?

2

:astonished:

That’s a toughie.

I think it’s more of a thing about how you express your thoughts. You could say you don’t agree with what your friend says, but also express that that’s his opinion and he’s free to believe whatever he likes. You know? The diplomatic approach.

When it all comes down to it though, friends talk to friends about other friends and it isn’t always positive. Sometimes it’s really funny. This then is brought up jokingly to the friend at some time or other and that friend is made fun of. If we’re all intelligent enough, we can take it like a grain of salt. Makes life more interesting. Everyone has their quirks and quarks and we can never agree 100% with everything.

When your lady friend expresses that she doesn’t want to talk bad about someone, that is noble in a way and she has the right to say that. She feels that it’s not good to talk bad about someone behind his/her back. The karma thing, really. It’s not nice. She knows you as well as the other guy. Or maybe she knows you less than the other guy. That comes into play, too.

I think it all depends on how close the relationships are in this triangle.

Maybe it just makes her feel dirty and evil.

3

To have an opinion is essentially to be judgemental.

An opinion is an idea about the way something should be and having set forth to believe in it is to judge it as right.

To express that belief is to make your judgement clear to the world.

However, people will only consider you to be ‘judgemental’ when your belief contradicts theirs. Whether or not that is considered socially acceptable is to some degree personal, but mostly cultural.

In Taiwan for example, if someone disagrees with you, they’ll usually keep it to themselves whilst perhaps even appearing to agree with you, but in Australia we are far less afraid of giving our opinion but also far less afraid of being found to be ‘wrong’, contradicted or judged. (the words are almost interchangeable)

Clearly I’m in favour of the Australian way, since it is only by being contradicted and found to be wrong that we can grow as people and to become wiser.

Of course I’ve always welcomed anyone to criticize my posts and to find my logic to be wrong. If I find no takers it supports my belief in the logic, and if I’m found to be wrong, then through debate, one of us will learn something :sunglasses:

4

Bobepine wrote [quote]I’m not a big fan of Kant,[/quote] Me too. :slight_smile:

Edit: oh god, I thought it said “I’m a big fan of Kant” :blush: so I should have written “Well, I love Kant.”

5

I agree with you, J8.

I think that sometimes, opinions differ to an extent that diplomacy will not be enough to make the message easy to accept. Then you may be labeled judgmental. I would rather that, personally, than to be self-labeled a dissembler, at the risk of being deviant, or not so diplomatic in times.

The lady in question and I had a long conversation about person X. To her, it’s OK to speak in his back so to speak, as long as we do not say bad things in his back such as “what a complete idiot!” (I have said just that to person X, BTW)I still disagree with her because, well, if I think person X is an idiot, how appropriate is it to dissemble this opinion in order to avoid being judgmental? Not saying it doesn’t change the fact that it’s what I think. I think she’s saying that it’s best to just not even think these things. But frankly, the world has a lot of idiots. I can be quite the idiot myself in times. I’d rather be told just that when I am being an idiot than to be led to believe otherwise, which ultimately, is not going to help me.

In other words, to dissemble your opinion in order to be diplomatic would be hypocritical. I’d rather be judgmental. I suppose there is a way to express yourself, as you say, to avoid being neither hypocritical nor judgmental. That’s a hell of a challenge sometimes. :wink:

[quote=“TycOOn”]Clearly I’m in favour of the Australian way, since it is only by being contradicted and found to be wrong that we can grow as people and to become wiser. [/quote] Wanker! (just kidding)

Exactly my feeling. Your post is to a T what I’m trying to say. If it(someone else opinion) hurts, ask yourself why and see how you can grow and become wiser as a positive outcome. And if you still don’t agree after putting thoughts into it, then that’s you’re right, and that’s where freedom of thoughts is invaluable. But to say “stop judging me” is just a baseless, and weak retort to most disagreements, IMO. Like this: [quote=“TycOOn”]However, people will only consider you to be ‘judgemental’ when your belief contradicts theirs.[/quote]

6

I’m a judgemental, opinionated person. I admit it. This “skill” has saved me from more than a few jams, pointless arguments, and bad feelings. I get a pretty good idea now about situations and even people to avoid, and seem to be getting along OK (finally). This “skill” has also made me some good friends, put me in good situations, made me money and even given me the dubious advantage of turning personal opinion into personal fact.

Having no opinion and not making informed judgements is not SMRT!

The trick is to keep it to yourself.

7

Opinion: Curry tastes great.
Judgement: Curry DOES taste great and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

Bobepine, what I would add to what that lady said is this: You have better ways to spend your time with that woman than in idle chatter about the opinions of others. You could be discussing your hatred of Kant, or about better ways to promote your charity. You get the picture. If you sit and talk about your opinion about someone else’s opinion you are just having an idle chat. Better to talk about how good the coffee you are drinking tastes.

It amuses me greatly that people sit and chat about me. Haven’t they got their own things to discuss? Isn’t silence a comfortable thing?

Other than that, if someone’s opinions bother you, you should talk to them directly.

However, it’s an easy enough thing to disagree with someone and then go talk about them behind their back.

8

[quote=“TomHill”]Opinion: Curry tastes great.
Judgement: Curry DOES taste great and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

Bobepine, what I would add to what that lady said is this: You have better ways to spend your time with that woman than in idle chatter about the opinions of others. You could be discussing your hatred of Kant, or about better ways to promote your charity. You get the picture. If you sit and talk about your opinion about someone else’s opinion you are just having an idle chat. Better to talk about how good the coffee you are drinking tastes.

It amuses me greatly that people sit and chat about me. Haven’t they got their own things to discuss? Isn’t silence a comfortable thing?

Other than that, if someone’s opinions bother you, you should talk to them directly.

However, it’s an easy enough thing to disagree with someone and then go talk about them behind their back.[/quote]You are being a judgmental asshole, Tom. :wink:

Seriously, I see your point, and it makes sense. Sometimes discussion is necessary, though, and that was one of them times. The lady an I rescued a pregnant dog and we brought it in to a vet for abortion/spaying. The vet performed a bloody c-section on her that day. This, my friend, is bound to create a serious need for discussion at many levels regarding person X actions and philosophies. Person X is the vet who performed the C-section. It would be hard not to sit down and discuss all this together. I think it was an idiotic thing to do. Not everyone who thinks different are idiots. Just that, IMO, is idiotic.

We ended up with ten puppies to bottle feed because the mother could not care for the pups post-surgery. If we wanted ten pups, we would have let the mother give birth naturally. Then of course, there’s the talk about which vet we will use for abortions on pregnant bitches, and so on, and so on. That’s not really what I consider talking in someone’s back for the sake of having something to talk about, here, Tom.

But I can fully see how the above posts were not very clear in that regard. So I won’t judge you for your uninformed reply. :stuck_out_tongue: I just didn’t want to give exact details about what this specific situation was about because I don’t like to advertise that we had a vet do a c-section on one of our CNR case. And also because the whole abortion thing is controversial enough as it is… Not our fault, however, we said we wanted the mother to have an abortion, not a bloody c-section.

9

I think that’s too loose of a definition, and it does nothing but blur the situation at hand. The distinction in meanings between words is important. It’s what gives language and thought power. In this case, I think it helps to first carefully look at how the words opinion, judgment and judgmental differ.

Opinion is just any belief or conclusion not based on evidence or proof; it can also mean a judgment or estimation of merit, worth or quality. Obviously, we humans cannot proceed with our daily lives without such beliefs and conclusions, as there is rarely proof of anything. Judgments of merit and quality are similarly an intrinsic part of the way we think and operate.

A judgment is the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation, or the assessment of a situation or circumstances the attempt to draw sound conclusions. Carefully considered opinions are judgments. Again, perfectly normal. Then there’s the 2nd shading of judgment which is more like ‘to pass moral judgment’ or condemnatory judgment, closely related to the next word.

Judgmental, on the other hand, refers to the general tendency to make judgments, especially moral or personal ones, and often in an excessive, unwelcome, and supercilious fashion. You might contrast it with the tendency to withhold judgment of others because you don’t really know their situation; you aren’t really in their shoes. People who do this a lot are irritating.

[quote=“TomHill”]Opinion: Curry tastes great.
Judgement: Curry DOES taste great and anyone who disagrees is wrong.[/quote]

I’d call the 2nd judgmental and opinionated, not ‘judgment’. But then again, you might be thinking of the 2nd shading of judgment I listed above, as in to pass judgment on others. So we’re not really disagreeing. I’d give examples as follows:

Opinions: Curry tastes great. I have a right to smoke. TV is a waste of time.
I dislike smoking and people who smoke near me.

Judgments: After careful taste testing, we judge entrant C’s curry the winner. After thinking about it, I realize that I know some really great people who happen to be smokers. It’s an unfortunate addiction, but as long as they are considerate towards non-smokers, I can’t really call them idiots. Ok, smokers are people with an unfortunate and unpleasant addiction.

Judgmental: Smokers are losers and idiots. Honestly, young people nowadays have no values. What a bunch of losers, sitting in front of the boob tube all the time. Damned liberals, there’s a place in hell reserved for them!

I don’t think that forming opinions or careful judgments is necessarily in any way negative. But is one being judgmental? Judgmental people, being supercilious to begin with, are probably incapable of seeing themselves as such. So if you’re worried about being and trying not to be judgmental, then you’re already on the right track.

Those are probably just judgments. If you often feel yourself morally superior to others, and don’t stop to put yourself in their shoes before judging, THEN you’re judgmental.

Yes and no. If you label someone as judgmental just for disagreeing with you, that’s ignorant and a cheap shot. If what you mean is that the person should stop thinking of themselves as morally superior, and that they should try to understand the perspectives, values, backgrounds and situations of others and consider these more carefully before judging, and be more tolerant, then the label of judgmental is appropriate.

10

Bloody hell, DB. Your post pretty well gave me no choice but to go read the definitions of these terms in depth. I read them before, but briefly, and I did see a strong correlation between a judgment and an opinion. In my mind, it was the same bloody thing. But not quite… Having re-read the definitions, I can say that your post is very consistent with the actual definitions of each word. Very well said.

Just one thing I want to add…

Yes and no. [color=blue]If you label someone as judgmental just for disagreeing with you, that’s ignorant and a cheap shot. [/color][color=green]If what you mean is that the person should stop thinking of themselves as morally superior, and that they should try to understand the perspectives, values, backgrounds and situations of others and consider these more carefully before judging, and be more tolerant, then the label of judgmental is appropriate.[/color][/quote]

Re: [color=blue]What you wrote in blue[/color], I tend to think that this is what I’m seeing the most. It’s too easy to just push someone down with negative labels.

Re: [color=green]What you wrote in green[/color], I like how you bring the concept of tolerance into this equation. Often times, what is fully tolerable to one, is intolerable to another. Read unsupportable. This said, I can try all I want to understand values/backgrounds/perspectives, but if the end result is an opinion or action that is not tolerable to me, my judgment will not be something the recipient will like to hear since he/she behaves/think in a way that is not supportable to me. My own background, my own perspective, and my own values dictate that. Yet, my opinion or my judgment in a situation where two very different sets of values clash can not be deemed judgmental, IMO, and it’s nothing short of a cheap shot to do that. It’s an easy way out, a coward act.

A good example of that, as far as I am concerned, is the humans vs animals debate. It’s a classic example of two very different sets of values. If one disagrees with my stance when it comes to animals rights, I often find myself in a position where my values are ridiculed, and or, I am labeled judgmental. If I say that it’s wrong to hurt animals, or if I say it’s wrong to re-home animals, I am ridiculed for comparing animals to humans(very common) or I am told that I am a judgmental prick. (also very common) Even worse, my values regarding the ethical treatment of animals will be compared with extremists values the like of sacred cows in India. There is nothing ethical about stopping traffic because a cow is on the street. That’s a religious belief, and it’s very different. Still, it’s easy to make such comparison to ridicule my own values.

The question is, how is that respecting my own values when it comes to the humans vs animals debate? My own values, my own perspective and my own background makes it crystal clear to me that animals deserve equal treatment to that of humans, but instead of addressing this value of mine, some folks resort to applying negative labels. It seems people are not willing to just say it bluntly if they think animals should not have their rights equally considered as that of humans. Instead they say “stop judging me.” And they come up with drastic and irrelevant examples the like of “if my son and my dog were to be drowning, I’d save my son first.” That’s irrelevant. Reason is, if your son and your neighbor were drowning, you’d also choose to save your son. Mind me, you’d probably save your neighbor before you save your own dog. Fair enough, but that’s not an indication of the animals rights, just an indication that we would prefer saving a person over an animal. It doesn’t mean animals don’t have rights and don’t deserve to be respected just because we would choose to save a person first. I would prefer if you tried to choose which of the two you would hurt first, and then try to tell me what the difference is…

Anyways, this may seem a tad off topic, but it’s an example of how judgments that people do not like to hear are not necessarily judgmental in nature. Besides, it’s a point I’m happy to make.

11

If there is a need to judge, IMO that’s just another form of criticism. Whatever one dislikes in something else, it’s safe to say they don’t like it in themselves.

12

I think it goes without saying that judging poorly, is destitute.

[quote]Whatever one dislikes in something else, it’s safe to say they don’t like it in themselves.[/quote]Maybe I’m not reading you right, Nama. But at first view, I don’t agree. I would say that an honest person will tend to dislike things he/she doesn’t like about him/herself, yes, but to extend this line of thinking to the point of saying that “it’s fair to say” that “whatever” you dislike is something you dislike in yourself, is a stretch, IMO.

Some people dislike racism. Does it mean that deep down they are racists? Perhaps for some people, but there are people who really have not got an ounce of racism in them, and the dislike for racism, for them, lies in racism itself and in those who exercise it.

Some people are really opposed to violence while they are by nature the most pacifist people. Again, the dislike for violence lies in violence and in its perpetrators.

Both racism and violence are two examples where judgment is, and should be exercised. To say that a man should not beat his children with a stick is not a poor judgment. To say that people should not pick on others based on the color of their skin is also a fair judgment. I see nothing destitute about such judgments, and I can’t imagine that everyone who dislikes these types of behavior dislike it in themselves.

[quote]Judgment: One of our purposes in life is to find a way to free ourselves of our need to judge others in a negative light. This is the work of our ego and judging others prevents us from seeing the good in them. There is no value in judging others poorly. As we see others, we also see ourselves.[/quote]This sounds like it’s out of a religious or spiritual book. I don’t think it pretends to fair judgment, but more so to poor judgment. Fair enough. Like I said, it goes without saying.

13

It sounds like your friend meant “judging” in the Biblical sense, which is what DB referred to as the second sense of “judging”, which he related to being judgemental. Christians will shy away from what seems to be judging others, even though most do the exact same thing all the time without realizing it.

The scriptures command “Judge not lest ye be judged.” So, that’s probably the source of this disagreement with your friend.

Of course, the Bible doesn’t mean to not have an opinion, nor does it mean to never make any kind of judgement. The advice, taken in context, is pretty much in line with what DB posted earlier. What Christians are not supposed to do, contrary to what you see from them half the time, is pass moral judgements on other people- particularly those who are not Christian.

Why bring up Christian belief at all here? Because it can help you understand another person’s mindset. The difference between someone who thinks they shouldn’t judge (judgementally) because of their own personal philosophy and a person who thinks they shouldn’t judge because it is a sin according to the Bible is a matter of emotion, and in some cases, intellectual maturity.

First off, Christians will start off following some rules without understanding why. As they put the teaching into practice they start to learn the why, but initially it’s just a matter of obedience. I know that’s true for myself. I tried to follow the rule not to judge long before I understood the philosophy behind it.

Secondly, even after Christians have learned the principle behind a teaching (or if they haven’t learned) their initial reaction will be to the idea of sinning rather than the social aspect of the problem.

I’ll have to finish my thoughts later. I have a train to catch.

14

If you call someone judgmental or opinionated, what does that say about you? :laughing:

15

sg

16

Ok. I’ve got a break, so gonna finish up my thoughts here.

As I was saying, in the Christian mindset, the important thing is the “sin” aspect of judging someone. That comes across hard and heavy in their minds, even if they understand the principle behind not being judgemental. So when you come out and say, “Well, I think it’s alright to judge some people sometimes” or even “I think we can have our own opinions”, they aren’t thinking about the philisophical issues involved. Instead, they connect contradicting the Bible and accepting a sin to the thought of rejecting Jesus. It’s ok to make judgements=it’s ok to not love Jesus=it’s ok to go to hell and suffer forever. The result is an emotional response and a mind more closed to discussion and compromise than might otherwise be.

My point? Instead of saying, “I don’t agree with that…” or “It’s ok to judge others if…” a much more useful way to go about the discussion is to first agree with them (which you probably do in regards to some meanings of the word ‘judge’) by saying, “I don’t mean to judge, him. I know we’re not supposed to judge people…” and then follow that up with what you really mean about judging people. That way you sidestep the whole internal anti-sin emotinal reaction and can discuss the philosophy behind it.

Finally finished my thought. I apologize for how disjoined it must seem now. Onto the next thought.

But then, are you sure you weren’t actually judging this doctor? By saying he was stupid to do what he did, you may be guilty of judging in the judgemental sense of the word rather than in the opinion/decision after deliberated thought sense.

You may be unaware of the reasons he did what he did. Perhaps he fully understands the problems of the stray dogs, what you were going to do, and that it was your intention that the dogs be aborted rather than birthed. And still gave the dog a c-section so as to save the dogs. It may be that he holds the life of these unborn dogs as the prime concern, and inconvenience to you, society, and everyone else is less important.

If you did lack the knowledge of whether the doctor’s decision was based on lack of knowledge or if it was a decision based on principle, then you were “judging” either his intelligence or wisdom in a judgemental way. Of course, maybe you know everything related to the case and you know the guy just honestly made a mistake or isn’t aware of the situation. In that case you were judging, but in the good kind of way.

In either event, it’s good to examine ourselves and see if the judgements we make are really fair or not.

17

Depends on how much you know about that person’s thought process and knowledge of those he/she is judging. It could be a valid judgement based on sound knowledge and an understanding of the words ‘judgemental’ and ‘opinionated’.

18

If you express a negative opinion about a person, you are judging him. If you express a positive opinion about a person, you are also judging him. It’s impossible to get through life without judging others or being judged.

19

[quote=“Erhu”]If you express a negative opinion about a person, you are judging him. If you express a positive opinion about a person, you are also judging him. It’s impossible to get through life without judging others or being judged.[/quote]Concise, to the point, and very accurate. Excellent post. I did not want to reply because this was the best closure for this thread. :idunno: :notworthy:

20

Are we talking about being judgemental in and of the Pysche? or expressing judgement to others who might not want to hear such haughty tones?
Even bugs and flowers are judgemental, in that prior experience will shape their future
behaviour.
Humans, ugly bags of water that we are, have a whole series of judgemental templates stamped into our psyche. Our whole cascading environmental diffusion leaves much ego-prone residue.

Yet, I thought this thread was All About The Jugs…

Actually, I am quite Jugs Mental.
Almost to the point of being
JudgeMental.