~~~Mod’s note:
The first 21 posts in this thread were originally posted in “The Morgue 2014” thread after the death of Ariel Sharon.
~TGM 01/14/2014
Ariel “Arik” Sharon. Sad day for Israel! 
Along with Ben-Gurion, Moshe Dayan, and Begin, I’d say he was one of Israel’s greatest. :bravo: :bravo:
theguardian.com/world/2014/j … haron-dies
[quote=“ChewDawg”]Ariel “Arik” Sharon. Sad day for Israel! 
theguardian.com/world/2014/j … haron-dies[/quote]
One less war criminal in the world. 
[quote=“cfimages”][quote=“ChewDawg”]Ariel “Arik” Sharon. Sad day for Israel!
theguardian.com/world/2014/j … haron-dies[/quote]
One less war criminal in the world. [/quote]
Time to get a one way ticket to Iran? Your politics might be appropriate there 
Seriously though, war criminal? When one country, from its very inception, has been attacked by outside forces of a much greater size, you need massive retaliation. Whether it was actions at Qibya, his tank exploits in '56, '67, and '73 or his return to Ben Gurian style of centrism at the end of his life through Kadima, he represented the sabra toughness that makes Israel great.
There are plenty of the same there as well. War crimes and the like go beyond politics and those that carry them out should be condemned and punished no matter what. They should not be mourned.
EDIT (in response to your edit) - You’ll also find that Israel started most, if not all, the wars it’s been in. First shots matter. It’s not retaliation if you shoot first.
What exactly should he been found guilty of? The Lebanon massacres? They were Maronite planned by the Falange Militia. You certainly don’t seem to care as much about the damage, terrorism and civil war that the PLO brought to the country.
Sharon let the terrorist world and Arab neighbours know very clearly that if they “fucked with Israel,” there would be massive retaliations.
On a personal level and at his farm in the Negev, he actually had very friendly relations with local Arabs.
[quote=“cfimages”]
EDIT (in response to your edit) - You’ll also find that Israel started most, if not all, the wars it’s been in. First shots matter. It’s not retaliation if you shoot first.[/quote]
Your knowledge of history is piss weak:
1948: Arab armies invaded. Once they did, Israelis executed Plan Dalet superbly, but the Arab armies did invade first.
Qibya response: Fair game considering the endemic raids into Israel from Gaza and Jordan.
1956: British, Israel and French invaded, but fedayeen raids were becoming endemic before the attack. Fair game.
1967. Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran (an act of war in itself) before Israel invaded. Fair game.
1973: Egypt attacked first. Fair game.
Lebanon 1982: Lebanon/Syrian interests attacked Israel Ambassador Shlomo Argov. Fair game.
What exactly should he been found guilty of? The Lebanon massacres? They were Maronite planned by the Falange Militia. You certainly don’t seem to care as much about the damage, terrorism and civil war that the PLO brought to the country.
Sharon let the terrorist world and Arab neighbours know very clearly that if they “fucked with Israel,” there would be massive retaliations.
On a personal level and at his farm in the Negev, he actually had very friendly relations with local Arabs.[/quote]
If you look through my posts on the subject in other threads you’ll see I’ve been equally critical of violent action from the Palestinians and have regularly condemned terrorism committed by them.
[quote=“ChewDawg”]Ariel “Arik” Sharon. Sad day for Israel! Along with Ben-Gurion, Moshe Dayan, and Begin, I’d say he was one of Israel’s greatest. :bravo: :bravo:
theguardian.com/world/2014/j … haron-dies
[/quote]
An outstanding soldier of the first order, whose record was blemished by the certain acts that took place under his watch during the 1982 war in Lebanon.
War criminal? That is a bit of a stretch.
[quote=“ChewDawg”][quote=“cfimages”]
EDIT (in response to your edit) - You’ll also find that Israel started most, if not all, the wars it’s been in. First shots matter. It’s not retaliation if you shoot first.[/quote]
Your knowledge of history is piss weak:
1948: Arab armies invaded. Once they did, Israelis executed Plan Dalet superbly, but the Arab armies did invade first.
Qibya response: Fair game considering the endemic raids into Israel from Gaza and Jordan.
1956: British, Israel and French invaded, but fedayeen raids were becoming endemic before the attack. Fair game.
1967. Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran (an act of war in itself) before Israel invaded. Fair game.
1973: Egypt attacked first. Fair game.
Lebanon 1982: Lebanon/Syrian interests attacked Israel Ambassador Shlomo Argov. Fair game.[/quote]
Don’t forget that long before the straights were closed, Israel had stated that this would be an act of war, as Israel would have no access to the Red Sea.
Let’s also not forget the Arab armies massing on Israel’s borders.
CFI, the great revisionist.
[quote=“bigduke6”]
CFI, the great revisionist.[/quote]
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: . Yip, and as usual, revisionists such as CFI get it wrong. They try and portray Sharon as a far right politico.
Sharon, if one looks at his full career objectively, rose in the military because he was a favorite of Ben Gurion, came from a left wing Kibbutzim background, was a Sabra, and proved himself in the field time and time again. He moved to the right in later years (late 60s and then under the realignment in 1977 where he joined Moshe Dayan in joining Likud under Begin) because he was a maverick and often offended party Labour people such as Golda Meir, Levi Eshkol etc. who thought he was reckless and were jealous of his relationship with Ben Gurion in earlier days.
That he returned in later years as PM to his centrist roots in Kadima in the 2000s (where Peres joined him in the 2000s–they were both members of RAFI with Ben Gurion when he split from Labour in the 60s) illustrates to me that he was a centrist at heart. And most Israelis I’ve met abroad through work or during grad school, regardless of whether they were greater Israel Likud supporters or Yossi Beilin peaceniks in Labour had respect for Sharon (if not as a politician,then certainly as a warrior).
People on here such as CFI that like to portray him as a one-dimensional so-called war criminal, really need to go back to kindergarten, then elementary school, then junior high, then high school and then hopefully university or some technical training!
[quote=“ChewDawg”][quote=“bigduke6”]
CFI, the great revisionist.[/quote]
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: . Yip, and as usual, revisionists such as CFI get it wrong. They try and portray Sharon as a far right politico.
[/quote]
I’d love to see you post the quote of me saying anything about him being far right. Or anywhere I even mention left / right politics regarding Sharon.
[quote=“cfimages”][quote=“ChewDawg”][quote=“bigduke6”]
CFI, the great revisionist.[/quote]
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: . Yip, and as usual, revisionists such as CFI get it wrong. They try and portray Sharon as a far right politico.
[/quote]
I’d love to see you post the quote of me saying anything about him being far right. Or anywhere I even mention left / right politics regarding Sharon.[/quote]
You alluded that both Bibi and Sharon are extremists in the post below. Just curious–Israel’s most decorated soldier (in terms of awards) was not Sharon, but former Labour PM Ehud Barak of Labour. He participated in raids in Lebanon, including the ones that killed Black September terrorists. Why not include him? It seems that you are selectively choosing people on the right and centre-right. In other words, picking on what you perceive to be the right wing politicians.
[quote=“ChewDawg”][quote=“cfimages”][quote=“ChewDawg”][quote=“bigduke6”]
CFI, the great revisionist.[/quote]
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: . Yip, and as usual, revisionists such as CFI get it wrong. They try and portray Sharon as a far right politico.
[/quote]
I’d love to see you post the quote of me saying anything about him being far right. Or anywhere I even mention left / right politics regarding Sharon.[/quote]
You alluded that both Bibi and Sharon are extremists in the post below. Just curious–Israel’s most decorated soldier (in terms of awards) was not Sharon, but former Labour PM Ehud Barak of Labour. He participated in raids in Lebanon, including the ones that killed Black September terrorists. Why not include him? It seems that you are selectively choosing people on the right and centre-right. In other words, picking on what you perceive to be the right wing politicians.
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … n#p1386419[/quote]
Nothing there mentions left / right.
Why not include Barak? Because AFAIK, he has not been accused of civilian massacres, international courts haven’t found evidence against him to warrant trial for the same, he hasn’t been continually opposed to the peace process, he hasn’t continually tried to expand settlements into Palestinian areas (in fact he’s done the opposite and called for unilateral withdrawal from them). None of his actions, either in war or in politics, suggest he’s an extremist or war criminal.
Sharon’s actions in Qibya, with the massacre of 69 civilians, Sinai with the execution of 49 POW’s, Sabra and Shatila which the formal Israeli inquiry into found Sharon personally responsible for, and which resulted in the deaths of anywhere from 700 (Israeli figure) to as high as 3500 (independent figures). We’ll never know just how many it was. And then as leader, he oversaw the most significant era of settlement building since the Begin era, and need I remind you that transfer by an occupying power of its civilians into an occupied territory is a breach of the Geneva Conventions and possible war crime.
I am sure it was Sharon that pulled Israel unilaterally out of Gaza.
He ordered Israeli police to pull settlers out by force if neccesary.
The funny thing is, he was the best hope for a two state solution to have been implemented, by sheer force of personality.
8000 or so settlers out of Gaza. 73000 into other Palestinian areas. You do the math.
And it was because of his decisive action that forced him out of Likud as the belief was he was going to start with the clearing of the West Bank next. He actually moved left when Kadima was founded. He was widely expected to win the next election, but unfortunately had a stroke before it happened.
You need to take off you anti Israel glasses and try to look at the big picture.
You’re like Chewie with the left and right thing. 
What’s that got to do with anything?
I’m on the pro-peace side. The same as the vast majority of Israeli citizens and the vast majority of Palestinian citizens. The only thing stopping the peace process has and continues to be the leadership on both sides. And they deserve all the criticism that’s cast their way, especially those complicit in war crimes who are completely unrepentant about it.
[quote=“cfimages”]You’re like Chewie with the left and right thing. What’s that got to do with anything?
I’m on the pro-peace side. The same as the vast majority of Israeli citizens and the vast majority of Palestinian citizens. The only thing stopping the peace process has and continues to be the leadership on both sides. And they deserve all the criticism that’s cast their way, especially those complicit in war crimes who are completely unrepentant about it.[/quote]
It has a lot to do with things. Conservatives tend to be on the right, while more moderates tend to be on the left. Sharon was basically kicked out of Likud for being to moderate. He knocked down temples in Gaza, as well as pulling settlers out. Any other Israeli politician would have been finished for even contemplating it unilaterally. He managed to do it based who he was. The pro peace Israelis fully supported him.
Great op-ed by Henry Kissinger on Ariel Sharon
I prefer heroes without the blood of innocents on their hands and “visions of peace” that amount to something more than glorified Bantustans.
[quote]Safia Hussein Teeb, 83, remembers al-Badoui’s screamed warnings as Sharon’s crack troops poured through the olive groves. ‘I was at home getting ready to go to sleep when I heard the shouting,’ she said last week. ‘Everything was confused and we hid downstairs where the animals were. All night we could hear explosions as the Israelis blew up houses. My daughter and her husband and my nephew were killed.’
Sharon’s orders were to blow up some public buildings to make a point. He could, his superiors said, blow up a few houses as well if he felt it was really necessary. But the young commander had equipped his men with 600kgs of explosives and was determined to use them. In all, nearly 50 houses were destroyed. Most villagers died when their buildings were blown up. . . . .
Two other little-known incidents from Sharon’s early career have also surfaced. Earlier in 1953, Sharon led another punitive raid against an Egyptian-run refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. Interviews with participants reveal that even some of his own soldiers were uneasy at his ruthlessness and objected to the plan. But the attack went ahead and 15 people were killed.
Another alleged operation involved an ambush of women who were crossing Israel’s border to get water from a village near Jerusalem.[/quote]