[quote]Arizona lawmakers on Tuesday passed one of the toughest pieces of immigration-enforcement legislation in the country, which would make it a violation of state law to be in the U.S. without proper documentation.
It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. [/quote]
online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … sNewsForth
This should be interesting.
I’d like to give a bit of background info on this to put it in better perspective.
-Recently a rancher was shot and killed on the border
-Phoenix is the #2 kidnap capital after Mexico City
-There’s a drug war going on at the border. The likes of which dwarf the conflict in Afghanistan
-Border patrol is being blocked by the Interior dept and Forestry dept from surveilling certain parts of the border.
-Illegals driving cars hitting people and then fleeing are problems as are their use of emergency rooms and the gaping deficit Arizona has from Medicaid.
-Sheriff Joe(love him or hate him) has been under threat from the feds from doing what the Arizona legislature has currently passed. He’s actually allowed to do it, but the current administration in Washington DC is taking a dim view on it.
-Their was a US consulate bombed in a Mexican City
You may disagree with the legislation, but it’s not being done in a vacuum like some people would have you believe.
[quote]Arizona lawmakers on Tuesday passed one of the toughest pieces of immigration-enforcement legislation in the country, which would make it a violation of state law to be in the U.S. without proper documentation.
It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal.[/quote] :bravo:
[quote=“Okami”]I’d like to give a bit of background info on this to put it in better perspective.
-Recently a rancher was shot and killed on the border
-Phoenix is the #2 kidnap capital after Mexico City
-There’s a drug war going on at the border. The likes of which dwarf the conflict in Afghanistan
-Border patrol is being blocked by the Interior dept and Forestry dept from surveilling certain parts of the border.
-Illegals driving cars hitting people and then fleeing are problems as are their use of emergency rooms and the gaping deficit Arizona has from Medicaid.
-Sheriff Joe(love him or hate him) has been under threat from the feds from doing what the Arizona legislature has currently passed. He’s actually allowed to do it, but the current administration in Washington DC is taking a dim view on it.
-Their was a US consulate bombed in a Mexican City
You may disagree with the legislation, but it’s not being done in a vacuum like some people would have you believe.[/quote]
Being an Arizona resident, I can confirm that this is all true.
It is really getting bad at the border. Tensions are high, and people are getting frustrated and scared.
I have very mixed feelings about this though. Most of my Hispanic friends and relatives will, no doubt, be hassled over this. Also, my wife and son are brown skinned, so they will be affected by it too.
The rancher that was shot helped save several border crossers over the years. The desert can be quite a brutal place to be caught without food and water. It was a very senseless killing.
The Mexican state of Sonora used to be a great place to go, and had very good relations with the people of AZ. It is a shame to see that disappear. Most people go to the beach in Sonora, rather than pay the high cost and longer drive to San Diego.
AZ asked for the National Guard to be stationed on the border and were refused. This law most likely came as a result of that refusal.
I think the National Guard SHOULD be used to defend our own country and not sent out to places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
The drug war is over. We lost. Legalize it and the trouble goes away.
At the time I lived there, both Newport Beach and Costa Mesa did not allow their PDs to ask about the legal status of citizenship of people they stopped or questioned. I think CM was an official “sanctuary city” then. There were one hell of a lot of ‘anchor babies’ being born there. Medical facilities and local hospitals were overwhelmed by illegals and the cost of treating them free of charge – paid for by US taxpayers. Several hospitals in Orange county, Cali closed for this reason.
Illegal is just what it says - - ILLEGAL. Welcome to America…sign the book on the way in.
My parents were legal immigrants.
I doubt that. I have a friend high up in the Restaurant Lobby in NYS. She says if all illegals were booted, the Hotel and Restaurant industries would crumble. It’s not ALL about the drugs.
True dat. In Little Saigon there is a lot of good Vietnamese food being cranked out by persons from South of the US Border.
Pretty much the same all over California and other places.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]At the time I lived there, both Newport Beach and Costa Mesa did not allow their PDs to ask about the legal status of citizenship of people they stopped or questioned. I think CM was an official “sanctuary city” then. There were one hell of a lot of ‘anchor babies’ being born there. Medical facilities and local hospitals were overwhelmed by illegals and the cost of treating them free of charge – paid for by US taxpayers. Several hospitals in Orange county, Cali closed for this reason.
Illegal is just what it says - - ILLEGAL. Welcome to America…sign the book on the way in.
My parents were legal immigrants.[/quote]
Costa Mesa and Newport are pretty posh areas (I used to live in Yorba Linda) hardly the haunts of illegals (unless of course they are going to cook some over-portioned goodies for some white folks at the Cheesecake Factory). The immigrants (both legal and illegal) you’d find LIVING there (along with Irvine) would more likely be rich Asians or Persians, so why bother.
Take this same premise next door to Santa Ana (probably 90% Latino) and it would never work. That community is gang riddled and full of illegals. Perhaps some illegals were going to nicer hospitals in CM and NB for child rearing, but Costa Mesa and Newport Beach are in all likelihood the two whitest places in So Cal and in no way a trouble area of the illegal immigration problem.
BACK ON TOPIC
Arizona must give all the righties in the US a hard on.
-Hard ass sheriffs who make outdoor jails in the desert.
-Lots of old white folks.
-Last state to recognize MLK day.
-Now immigration laws with real teeth
just hope it is worth it. Fucking with illegals is putting their near $10 billion dollar agriculture industry in serious danger.
This upcoming immigration debate is going to be a complete mess and one of the ugliest things we will ever witness. There are no answers and the fixes are going to hurt everyone. There should have been a solution in the Clinton or early Bush years. Those two shit the bed and now it is time to clean the sheets.
[quote]Current law in Arizona and most states doesn’t require police to ask about the immigration status of those they encounter. And many police departments prohibit officers from inquiring out of fear that immigrants won’t cooperate in other investigations.
The law also would crack down on employment for illegal immigrants by prohibiting people from blocking traffic when they seek or offer day labor on street corners. Also, a judge could fine a city for not enforcing the immigration law vigorously enough.
The new measure would be just the latest crackdown of its kind in Arizona, which has an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants.
Pearce, the bill’s sponsor, has been the driving force behind Arizona’s tough new measures, including a law copied in other states that punishes companies caught knowingly hiring illegal immigrants. He insists the measures are aimed at enforcing immigration laws, not racial profiling.
“I believe handcuffs are a great tool, but you have to put them on the right people,” said Pearce, a former cop who can list the local officers killed or wounded by illegal immigrants. “Get them off the police officers and put them on the bad guys.”
Supporters of the crackdown also point to Phoenix’s high kidnapping rate, which law enforcement says is fueled by immigrant and drug smugglers who snatch their rivals or their family members as a way to collect unpaid debts, make quick money or as retaliation for earlier abductions.
Anger over the porous Mexican border mounted last month when an Arizona cattle rancher was shot to death. Investigators said he may have been killed by drug runners working for cartels based in Mexico.
The new measure is supported by police unions representing rank-and-file officers, who deny they would engage in profiling.
It is opposed by police chiefs, who worry that the law would be too costly, that it would distract them from dealing with more serious problems, and that it would sow such distrust among immigrants that they would not cooperate with officers investigating other crimes.
Legal immigrants fear the law would give officers easy excuses to stop them, and that even U.S. citizens could find themselves detained if they can’t prove their legal status.
“When they come up with these things, it doesn’t matter if I’m here legally,” said Jose Melendez, a 55-year-old naturalized U.S. citizen from Guadalajara, Mexico. "If they see a Mexican face and a Mexican name, they’ll ask for papers."
[/quote]
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100415/ap_ … mmigration
I have to disagree with Mr Melendez though. If I can do airport searches all over the world because a couple dozen religious crackpots declared war on reality, then he can whip his driver’s license out once a month.
[quote]
Anti-immigration activists say the larger goal is to discourage illegal immigration by making the U.S. inhospitable.
“Most illegals would leave on their own if they felt the U.S. was serious about our laws,” said William Gheen, president of Americans for Legal Immigration Political Action Committee. [/quote]
This doesn’t solve the who’s going to do the crapjobs problems though. However, I’m sure there are lots of people around the globe who would legally come to the US to live and work them…land of opportunity and all.
But what if legal immigration quotas were increased to make up for it? I don’t claim to be well-informed on the issues of illegal immigration, illegal labor demand and supply or migrant farm workers in the U.S., and am interested in hearing more sides to these issues.
I understand the need for a country to control immigration. I certainly understand the need to combat the drug trade or drug-related violence. But I will say that one of the great things about the U.S. has always been that people can walk around without being asked at random by the Gestapo to show documentation. If that ends, and especially if it selectively ends for people of a certain ethnicity, race, skin color, creed or gender, it’s a big step backward for equality and liberty in America.
There is no shortage of cheap labor. Repeat- no shortage. There was during WW2 . Not now. They have LEGAL migrant farm workers, labourers etc. from Mexico. They have enough. Why should any group of immigrants be treated differently just because of the proximity to the US? They should learn the language, pay taxes, obey the law as every immigrant group should. But they don’t.
They don’t need to.
My brother’s Cuban wife and family agree, they learned the language and got legal status. My grandparents did it. I have legal status here in Taiwan and bend over for the government, pay taxes etc.
My first car was destroyed by a drunk-driving illegal. That was the second time he was involved in a drunk driving accident. The judge released him on bail and away he flew. I worked with illegals in factories in LA and asked if they were afraid of the INS catching them-they laughed and said they'd just be back on Monday. I lived in Santa Ana, Ca. in a crappy drug neighborhood watching the neighbors pile into houses, shoot each other, and terrorize other racial groups, listening to drive-bys at night praying that a stray bullet wouldn't kill me. The labor glut creates poor, desperate people who steal and sell drugs to get by. The Mexicans have a lot of problems in their own country, next to the drug trade, money from illegal immigrant labor is a huge part of the GNP.This is exactly right and has been sited as a reason why the Mexican side of the border doesn’t make an effort to help control immigration.
I actualy got my first ESL job in undergrad school, teaching English to employees of a chicken processing plant. INS came once in helicopters and landed on the roof. After that, if a chopper, or any other kind of plane, flew over the plant, they had to shut down because no one came to work and there weren’t enough legal workers to call in to keep the plant running.
And there were PLENTY of do-nothing types around who would moan and whine that they couldn’t get a job because all the “damn Mexicans” came and took the work. But they wouldn’t have worked those jobs for anything in the world.
[quote=“Dragonbones”]
But what if legal immigration quotas were increased to make up for it? I don’t claim to be well-informed on the issues of illegal immigration, illegal labor demand and supply or migrant farm workers in the U.S., and am interested in hearing more sides to these issues. [/quote]
houstonpress.com/2007-12-20/ … -industry/[quote]
The restaurant industry is the nation’s largest employer of immigrants, according to the National Restaurant Association, which estimates that 1.4 million restaurant workers in the United States are foreign-born immigrants. Seventy percent of them work in the lowest-paying jobs, as dishwashers, busboys, prep cooks and cleaning help.
The National Restaurant Association lobbies on behalf of restaurant owners, and predictably, it’s one of the loudest proponents of immigration reform. “While the government claims stepped-up enforcement…will discourage future illegal immigration across our nation’s borders,” the NRA Web site says, “in reality, all they are doing is eliminating a sizeable portion of the workforce without providing any legal avenue to hire foreign-born workers to do jobs that Americans are no longer taking.”[/quote]
Another problem is that one of the reasons Americans are not taking these jobs is that the illegal immigrants have driven the wages so low, they can’t live off it…
usillegalaliens.com/impacts_ … _jobs.html[quote]
The MSM report ad nauseam that illegal aliens are only “doing work that Americans won’t.” This mantra is mercilessly bandied about by illegal immigration supporters and echoes throughout the halls of Congress and the White House whenever the topic comes up. What is never mentioned, however, is that the illegal aliens are artificially depressing compensation and that illegal aliens are the only ones who will do the work at such low wages. In actual fact, illegal immigration distorts the law of supply and demand in a capitalistic society. Additionally it is grossly hypocritical to want to raise the minimum wage on one hand while the other hand winks at illegal aliens working at far below prevailing wages.[/quote]
Obviously, it is a complex problem.
[quote]
I understand the need for a country to control immigration. I certainly understand the need to combat the drug trade or drug-related violence.[/quote] Sure, yet the drug related problems are regional. The jobs related problems are national.
[quote]
But I will say that one of the great things about the U.S. has always been that people can walk around without being asked at random by the Gestapo to show documentation.[/quote] I don’t think asking police to enforce laws makes their actions Gestapo-ish. It’s like yelling “PIGS!” When a cop is pointing a radar gun at your car as you drive by.
[quote]
If that ends, and especially if it selectively ends for people of a certain ethnicity, race, skin color, creed or gender, it’s a big step backward for equality and liberty in America.[/quote]
But it’s NOT about race. It’s about economic impact. Maybe the simpletons will say “Them Mexicans/Asians/Africans are taking our jobs,” but the fact is that the primary focus is on jobs, not race. Then crime, not race. Conversely, simpletons will say “Anti-immigrant policy is RACIST!” without the slightest idea of how convoluted the problem really is and instead of educating themselves, they prefer to thigh squeeze their moral horse in a closed minded effort to “stay above the fray.”
If one chooses to focus on knuckleheads with headline grabbing placards that get their cause on the Daily Show and then one does not delve deeper into the complexity of the problem and chooses to only engage the knucklehead…well, then one tends to miss the real problem and avoid any realistic, if not assuredly difficult solutions.
As for illegal immigrants and the impact of Black Americans, check this out:
books.google.com/books?id=99QDAA … &q&f=false
The underlying feeling seems to be that many lower and middle class Blacks feel that illegal immigrants and taking their jobs and driving wages way down.
But what if legal immigration quotas were increased to make up for it? I don’t claim to be well-informed on the issues of illegal immigration, illegal labor demand and supply or migrant farm workers in the U.S., and am interested in hearing more sides to these issues.
I understand the need for a country to control immigration. I certainly understand the need to combat the drug trade or drug-related violence. But I will say that one of the great things about the U.S. has always been that people can walk around without being asked at random by the Gestapo to show documentation. If that ends, and especially if it selectively ends for people of a certain ethnicity, race, skin color, creed or gender, it’s a big step backward for equality and liberty in America.[/quote]
The Hondurans and Salvadoreans have a temporary work/residence permit. Maybe with more logical and professional regulation -meaning better funded- this could be extended, and people could work for short periods -harvest time, for instance- enough to get poor people back on their feet. Restaurants could count as training.
If things were better home, then these cooks could go back and start their own restaurants. Alas, conditions are not so because most investment is a facade for laundering money and no real growth is done, so the economy looks good in numbers but the general population is in stagnation.
Those funds are a vital release of the economic and social pressure. Interestingly, it is the upper scheleons of society who are “benefiting” more of the drug trade, using the funds for fueling these “emerging market” Ponzi scheme.
Back home, they also tried the temporary permits. However, because of corruption -overcharging by appointed officials, under the table deals- it was cancelled. However, the temporary permits for harvest time still work, and have a pretty decent rate of sucess getting people to go back to their own countries afterwards.
As to the legislation at hand, I worry about the legal residents and especially US born/legal citizens. Are you sure proving that you are US citizen is foolproof? I remember the case of a mentally impaired guy who was sent back to Mexico… only that he was born in California. Don’t want more reenactments of Mi Familia, the movie. They have to cross their Ts and dot their Is before starting implementing this issue. Otherwise, teh possibilities for a foul-up are plenty.
Hmmm…I wasn’t aware of “the Gestapo” being on active patrol in the United States of America. Interesting news, that.
I am aware however, of the need for LEOs to determine the correct identification of persons they detain in the normal course of their duty.
Also, it has been repeatedly upheld by higher courts that the LEOs may not simply stop and seek identification of a person without just cause - they cannot stop someone simply because they “want to” stop check that persons identity and personal information.
Now, as to whether the “Gestapo” group honors this court ruling, or even is bound by it, is, of course, another matter completely.
A possible result of the OT ruling:
Immigration agents raid Ariz. van shuttle business
“PHOENIX (AP) - Dozens of federal immigration agents are raiding a Phoenix business that advertises van shuttle services from northern Mexico to cities in Arizona, New Mexico, California, Nevada, Oregon and Washington.”
"The Hondurans and Salvadoreans have a temporary work/residence permit. Maybe with more logical and professional regulation -meaning better funded- this could be extended, and people could work for short periods -harvest time, for instance- enough to get poor people back on their feet. Restaurants could count as training. "
We already have this for seasonal migrant workers.
[quote=“Bubba 2 Guns”]"The Hondurans and Salvadoreans have a temporary work/residence permit. Maybe with more logical and professional regulation -meaning better funded- this could be extended, and people could work for short periods -harvest time, for instance- enough to get poor people back on their feet. Restaurants could count as training. "
We already have this for seasonal migrant workers.[/quote]
Yep, I was proposing extending this to “temporary cooks” and other jobs in the cities.
Problem I see is just as here: how many businessess wil be willing to have taxable employees and submit to tax audits made to check if they are paying taxes on the extra income generated by cheaper labor?
Hmmm…I wasn’t aware of “the Gestapo” being on active patrol in the United States of America.[/quote]
Please re-read his quote:
“one of the great things about the U.S. has always been that people can walk around
without
being asked at random by the Gestapo to show documentation.”
[quote=“Icon”]
As to the legislation at hand, I worry about the legal residents and especially US born/legal citizens. Are you sure proving that you are US citizen is foolproof? I remember the case of a mentally impaired guy who was sent back to Mexico… only that he was born in California. Don’t want more reenactments of Mi Familia, the movie. They have to cross their Ts and dot their Is before starting implementing this issue. Otherwise, the possibilities for a foul-up are plenty.[/quote]
Right. But a simple trip to the DMV could prevent this. That and a social security card.
Thing is, the Bill states that the cops cannot simply stop and check people. So, if you’re Mexican/Hispanic American in AZ and standing on the corner looking for pick-up work, you’d best carry your ID.
Hmmm…I wasn’t aware of “the Gestapo” being on active patrol in the United States of America.[/quote]
Please re-read his quote:
“one of the great things about the U.S. has always been that people can walk around
without
being asked at random by the Gestapo to show documentation.”[/quote]
Please participate in the discussion.
If DB didn’t want return comments on is use of the word “Gestapo”, he should have used the word “Police.” Cops doing their jobs are not Gestapo.