The German and Japanese empires enslaved and murdered millions of people. The Japanese made rape into an institution, and it was the common soldier who carried out the atrocities. The Allied powers prosecuted their soldiers who broke the law, including decorated combat vets. There’s absolutely no comparison. 
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I agree with forefit. It wasn’t only the naive, ignorant, young men on the allied side who were fucked over by the fat lazy bastards in high command. It takes two to tango: two sets of fat, lazy bastards, who probably enjoyed a round of golf together and some very expensive scotch and schnapps before and after the wholesale slaughter of good, wholesome, working class men.
Utter rubbish. Try reading a non-fiction book every now and then.
[quote=“Gao Bohan”]
Utter rubbish. Try reading a non-fiction book every now and then.[/quote]
Exactly what one of those corpulent, indolent, old farts would say.
Japanese people are quite nice, actually. I’ve even met the odd German I liked: Despite years of brainwashing that they were both subhuman species of evil overlords attempting to take over the world by killing us and raping our women.
The German and Japanese empires enslaved and murdered millions of people. The Japanese made rape into an institution, and it was the common soldier who carried out the atrocities. The Allied powers prosecuted their soldiers who broke the law, including decorated combat vets. There’s absolutely no comparison.
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To be fair, he did say World War II and World War I. I entirely agree with you about World War II, but World War I? Jews and other minorities in Germany fought in the trenches side by side with Protestant and Catholic Germans. Hohenzollern paternalism wasn’t such a bad thing and Germany was one of the most pro-US countries and stabilizing forces in the latter half of the 19th Century. To me, and this is almost a Marxist interpretation 
, World War I was a squabble amongst the imperialist powers/royal families 
, which is why the US didn’t join until late in the show. In may ways, I think the Hohenzollerns were more progressive than a lot of allied royal families/government structures at the time.
If anything, World War II in the German context showed what happens when “little corporal” peasants get to run the show under socialist structures rather than the Junkers and their paternalism.
Utter rubbish. Try reading a non-fiction book every now and then.[/quote]
Especially those written by the victors, right?
Anyone that has even a tenuous grasp of something other than slanted propaganda style history of the politics of war would readily admit that all nations have more than a few skeletons in their haberdashery.
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[quote=“Jaboney”]A few years ago, I was able to visit, for the first time, some of the WWI battlefields, and a great-uncle, Eddie’s grave. Signed the visitor’s book, and a couple months later received a letter from someone who visited later and recognized the name from a soldier’s memoir, Will Bird’s Ghosts Have Warm Hands. Quite something to read a firsthand account of his death; brought the reality a little closer to home.
[/quote]
One of the most poignant things I’ve read on the flob. Thanks, Jaboney.
Veteran’s Day is about honoring the soldiers of the US and its allies, not its enemies. Particularly not enemies who ignored international treaties and enslaved Allied POWs in labor camps under inhumane conditions. And we haven’t delved into the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing in conquered territories, and wanton oppression of surviving minorities. All of this is well documented and on the German side at least, fully acknowledged.
One wonders why the US and its allies bother to prosecute their own soldiers who commit war crimes, if people are just going to hold all warring nations as morally equivalent.
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[quote=“Gao Bohan”]Veteran’s Day is about honoring the soldiers of the US and its allies, not its enemies. Particularly not enemies who ignored international treaties and enslaved Allied POWs in labor camps under inhumane conditions. And we haven’t delved into the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing in conquered territories, and wanton oppression of surviving minorities. All of this is well documented and on the German side at least, fully acknowledged.
One wonders why the US and its allies bother to prosecute their own soldiers who commit war crimes, if people are just going to hold all warring nations as morally equivalent.
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Its called Armistice Day. Eleventh hour of the eleventh day, the poppies on Flander’s Field and all that. And it is to celebrate the end of the Great War and to pay tribute to those who paid the ultimate sacrifice. What the hell is “veteran’s day?” I’ve never even heard of it. WHen is veteran’s day?
I’m a little surprised that in this day and age, there are still fools around who think of the bloody Hun and the stinking Nip in those terms. Pretty damn gross, if you ask me. Which you didn’t. But I’ll have my say nonetheless. You should be ashamed of yourself. I know several people, some still living, who served in those conflicts (well, the second one, at least. Although I have at least three relatives who died in the trenches). Scottish and German. Not ONE of them thinks in your jingoistic, archaic terms, probably not even then, when they were going through it.
Not even in the village near where my parents live, where the war memorial lists 282 men and boys. Every single male of fighting age in the village at that time. Every single one. Everybody gone. The Floo’ers of the Forest are a’ Wede Awa’.
Cast off your hate and doff your cap. Its a simple act of rememberance.
And let us not forget who taught the Nazis in the finer acts of concentration camps. Moral equivalence, indeed! Shame on you.
[quote=“sandman”][quote=“Gao Bohan”]Veteran’s Day is about honoring the soldiers of the US and its allies, not its enemies. Particularly not enemies who ignored international treaties and enslaved Allied POWs in labor camps under inhumane conditions. And we haven’t delved into the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing in conquered territories, and wanton oppression of surviving minorities. All of this is well documented and on the German side at least, fully acknowledged.
One wonders why the US and its allies bother to prosecute their own soldiers who commit war crimes, if people are just going to hold all warring nations as morally equivalent.
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Its called Armistice Day. Eleventh hour of the eleventh day, the poppies on Flander’s Field and all that. And it is to celebrate the end of the Great War and to pay tribute to those who paid the ultimate sacrifice. What the hell is “veteran’s day?” I’ve never even heard of it. WHen is veteran’s day?
I’m a little surprised that in this day and age, there are still fools around who think of the bloody Hun and the stinking Nip in those terms. Pretty damn gross, if you ask me. Which you didn’t. But I’ll have my say nonetheless. You should be ashamed of yourself. I know several people, some still living, who served in those conflicts (well, the second one, at least. Although I have at least three relatives who died in the trenches). Scottish and German. Not ONE of them thinks in your jingoistic, archaic terms, probably not even then, when they were going through it.
Not even in the village near where my parents live, where the war memorial lists 282 men and boys. Every single male of fighting age in the village at that time. Every single one. Everybody gone. The Floo’ers of the Forest are a’ Wede Awa’.
Cast off your hate and doff your cap. Its a simple act of rememberance.
And let us not forget who taught the Nazis in the finer acts of concentration camps. Moral equivalence, indeed! Shame on you.[/quote]
Even King George V when he dedicated the first Armistice Day stated that it was to remember those who died in the war. There was no mention at all that only some should be remembered.
[quote=“TheGingerMan”]But then, on that score you chaps were rather late, were ye not?[/quote] At least as to the European fights (1 and 2), I don’t think the U. S. should have arrived at all. We should have let the Europeans manage their own mess. And that goes for the leftovers of their empires, too.
As to the name of the day, I don’t care what people call it. Call it Bubblegum Day for all I care.
[quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“TheGingerMan”]But then, on that score you chaps were rather late, were ye not?[/quote] At least as to the European fights (1 and 2), I don’t think the U. S. should have arrived at all. We should have let the Europeans manage their own mess. And that goes for the leftovers of their empires, too.
As to the name of the day, I don’t care what people call it. Call it Bubblegum Day for all I care.[/quote]
Had the US not gotten involved, the outcome would have been the same. Except more Jews would have died in the camps and a much larger slice of Europe would’ve been under the Communist jackboot. The eventual outcome would have been far worse for the US as the USSR would have had warm water ports on the Atlantic for several decades and most of Europe today would be much like Poland and the old East Germany today.
Not good for any concerned, I think. Good thing the Yanks put in their hand when they did. The more the merrier, so to speak.
[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“TheGingerMan”]But then, on that score you chaps were rather late, were ye not?[/quote] At least as to the European fights (1 and 2), I don’t think the U. S. should have arrived at all. We should have let the Europeans manage their own mess. And that goes for the leftovers of their empires, too.
As to the name of the day, I don’t care what people call it. Call it Bubblegum Day for all I care.[/quote]
Had the US not gotten involved, the outcome would have been the same.[/quote]
Either way, it wasn’t supposed to be our problem (and I’m referring to the European theater of both world wars).
I don’t know whether it would have been worse for us, but in any case, I think we’d have most likely managed somehow.
Amen. I am thankful they did, even though most Amis, Tommies and other allied vets I talked to so far asked me to explain why.
Amen. I am thankful they did, even though most Amis, Tommies and other allied vets I talked to so far asked me to explain why.[/quote]
And what’s the answer you gave?
Lend/Lease Act?
or
The Fighting Prowess of the American Army?
Amen. I am thankful they did, even though most Amis, Tommies and other allied vets I talked to so far asked me to explain why.[/quote]
And what’s the answer you gave?
Lend/Lease Act?
or
The Fighting Prowess of the American Army?[/quote]
Uhm… close. I thanked them for allowing me to grow up in a more or less free country called Federal Republic of Germany, instead of in the 1000 years Reich. If it had not been for them, this would probably have happened.
Stumbled upon a podcast of what sounds like a very good book on WWII, and in the process of checking that out, stumbled on another.
The first is from the Pritzker Military Library, which has free podcasts available from authors on military matters. This one from Sir Max Hastings - Inferno is a single-volume history of World War II, drawing inspiration from classics such as Gerhard Weinberg’s A World at Arms. But in the midst of his global narrative, Hastings frequently takes a small-picture view, focusing on events of the war as they appeared to the people experiencing them — without the benefit of hindsight or historical perspective. pritzkermilitarylibrary.org/ … -2011.aspx
Some stunning facts in here, which attempts to place the war in a global perspective. While we reflect often on the lot of the front line soldier, this book, and indeed the podcast reinforces the global nature of WWII, and its horrid impact on everyone unfortunate (or in some instances, fortunate) to be around for it. A stunning stat - 17,000 US soldiers lost limbs in WWII, while 100,000 civilians lost limbs in industrial accidents in the US in the same period.
And while looking about in Amazon for the book Inferno, I stumbled on this: amazon.com/Stranger-Myself-I … 0374139784
HG
[quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“bismarck”][quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“TheGingerMan”]But then, on that score you chaps were rather late, were ye not?[/quote] At least as to the European fights (1 and 2), I don’t think the U. S. should have arrived at all. We should have let the Europeans manage their own mess. And that goes for the leftovers of their empires, too.
As to the name of the day, I don’t care what people call it. Call it Bubblegum Day for all I care.[/quote]
Had the US not gotten involved, the outcome would have been the same.[/quote]
Either way, it wasn’t supposed to be our problem (and I’m referring to the European theater of both world wars).
I don’t know whether it would have been worse for us, but in any case, I think we’d have most likely managed somehow.[/quote]
There are some fiction books on that. Alternative history it is called, like the Third Reich manages to survive WW2. Really a nuclear-armed Third Reich controlling large parts of Europe in the 50s as one possible outcome of US-non-interference sounds like a good start for a nightmare.
I guess this is the new Tea Party stance. Don’t interfere in foreign stuff. Could be costly though.
[quote=“bob_honest”][quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“bismarck”][quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“TheGingerMan”]But then, on that score you chaps were rather late, were ye not?[/quote] At least as to the European fights (1 and 2), I don’t think the U. S. should have arrived at all. We should have let the Europeans manage their own mess. And that goes for the leftovers of their empires, too.
As to the name of the day, I don’t care what people call it. Call it Bubblegum Day for all I care.[/quote]
Had the US not gotten involved, the outcome would have been the same.[/quote]
Either way, it wasn’t supposed to be our problem (and I’m referring to the European theater of both world wars).
I don’t know whether it would have been worse for us, but in any case, I think we’d have most likely managed somehow.[/quote]
There are some fiction books on that. Alternative history it is called, like the Third Reich manages to survive WW2. Really a nuclear-armed Third Reich controlling large parts of Europe in the 50s as one possible outcome of US-non-interference sounds like a good start for a nightmare.
I guess this is the new Tea Party stance. Don’t interfere in foreign stuff. Could be costly though.[/quote]
Yeah, that’s me, big card-carrying Tea Party member. I guess I’d think differently if I’d read them books you mentioned.