Theres also a flat earth society still. Your point?
That organization isn’t likely to get anywhere in Taiwan’s political environment today.
Taichungmafia,
Tell USA to issue passports to everyone on Taiwan. I don’t know how the conservative nativist in USA would react to the influx of Asian immigrants into the USA education system.
In an election year where Chinese have been framed as “stealing jobs” from Americans via unfair monetary regulation and cheap labor, you think this idea would get a warm reception.
Poor China – a nation of 1.1 billion cowering in fear of island of 22 million! What’s next on your list, AC? Having the people of Poland apologize for threatening Germany and starting WWII in Europe?
AC_dropout and cmdjing, I take it neither of you will be showing your support for this very worthwhile organization by sending in your membership dues. Too bad for both of you as I heard each new paid member receives a matching set of “Taiwan First” cups and coasters!!!
Vorkosigan,
I believe the PRC is not too concerned about ROC government directly, since ROC citizen have more or less free access to the PRC territory. The concern on the PRC end is the implication of a stronger USA, Japan, SK, ROC alliance and the “Containment Policy” of the USA.
My premise is it would be more stable for the ROC to declare neutrality and not participate in the Containment Policy of the USA.
Taichungmafia,
I usually have my accountants review any entity I donate to, you never know what affiliation might come back to haunt you.
Thanks for the offer on the free dining ware; it will be quite an upgrade from my current set of disposable dishes.
However, about this organization what assurances do you have the USA would accept ROC as an unincorporated territory, like PR or Guam?
This is exactly why the Taiwanese must start exercising their US constitutional rights. It`s their best defense against invasion from Beijing.
The main idea of the usataiwan organization may seem highly unlikely, but it does offer something to both sides of the ROT/annexation debate.
Taichungmafia,
Which USA constitutional right does ROC have at this time? The right to bear arms?
Got a HTTP 404 - File not found error to your link.
The arms procurement package is vital to Taiwan’s defense. Unfortunately, even if the budget was passed immediately, it would still be a number of years before the Kidd-class destroyers and eight subs would be in service. By that time, the Kidd-class ships would already be outclassed. The PLAAN has at least two new destroyers (Type 052C) being built (already launched in 2003) with the Russian version of the AEGIS system. There are also two Type 052B destroyers coming into service in the next few years. What Taiwan really needs is AEGIS equipped ships. There is no other way to take on a PLA missile barrage.
As for the arms procurement package hurting Taiwan’s economy, that is such bullshit. Despite all the guys walking around in cheap NT$10 blue bathroom slippers wearing betel nut stained wife beaters that probably haven’t been washed since the lifting of martial law, Taiwan is still a very wealthy place, among the top (if not number one?) in terms of foreign currency reserves in the world. They can afford it. The KMT is shooting itself in the foot by blocking this deal, because it’s gonna lose support from the US who is going to see the DPP and CSB as the only ones serious about defending Taiwan.
If I was at the negotiate table I would question USA credibility to the TRA, if it was willing to question our credibility to defend ourselves.
We’re willing to defend ourselves, but not at the outrageous price USA is asking for. Sell the products to us at a similar price level Israel and Japan get them for and we will seriously reconsider.
Also the ROC economy is not unlimited as you believe it is. Some people are wearing the 10NT slippers and stain shirts because that is all they can afford. You think there would be all these motor scooters around, if everyone could afford a BMW.
The US has already dropped the price of the arms package. And I don’t think you need to be reminded that the US is the only country at present willing to sell weapons systems to Taiwan. The Europeans wouldn’t touch the submarine project with a ten foot pole, so the US is having to go back into the diesel-electric sub business that it hasn’t done since the end of WWII … of course that’s going to be expensive. Even when the Europeans were “willing” to sell weapons to Taiwan … like the French Lafayette class frigates … they refused to arm them. So, the Taiwanese were stuck with six boats without any armament and a hell of a time trying to outfit a French-made ship with Taiwanese and US weapons systems. Those ships (which were sold to Taiwan at even a more outrageous price than the US package and couldn’t defend themselves, let alone Taiwan) are still basically worthless.
Adding in…
while this point may have been mentioned before, then the arms package was actually negotiated initially by guess who?
The KMT.
What Taiwan needs is a few Arleight Burke class destroyers equipped with AEGIS. The Kidds are good, but will most likely end up like the slightly older Knox class, which has a combat readiness at 50% on a good day.
If the USA is not willing the drop the price even more, need we remind them that Taiwan has a real estate monopoly on the Taiwan Strait for USA. If the USA value us as an de facto allie in their containment policy they should lower the price as a sign of good will.
This is not about DPP or KMT negotiating the deal. This is about USA taking advantage of ROC, we should not allow that happen no matter if we are status quo, independent, or an unincorporated territory.
That’s the stance ROC needs to take if we wish to earn a semblance of respect on the world stage. If Singapore can do it so can we. PRC and USA won’t respect the ROC if we just bend over.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]If the USA is not willing the drop the price even more, need we remind them that Taiwan has a real estate monopoly on the Taiwan Strait for USA. If the USA value us as an de facto allie in their containment policy they should lower the price as a sign of good will.
This is not about DPP or KMT negotiating the deal. This is about USA taking advantage of ROC, we should not allow that happen no matter if we are status quo, independent, or an unincorporated territory.
That’s the stance ROC needs to take if we wish to earn a semblance of respect on the world stage. If Singapore can do it so can we. PRC and USA won’t respect the ROC if we just bend over.[/quote]
I say take it or leave it. The only other choice is an eventual invasion where a lot of people would die needlessly. And Taiwan is not “bending over.” The current ROC administration has already successfully negotiated to lower the price. The KMT is squabbling for the sake of squabbling.
Aside from the subs, does anyone actually know how much the other things cost other countries?
No. Nobody here “knows” how much this package, or the items in it, should cost. I have seen no convincing arguments in either English or Chinese as to how this package is overpriced. I’m not saying that the price is completely fair. It could indeed be high. Nevertheless, it is very difficult to compare prices for international arms deals. It is very rare for two countries to order the same weapon system in the same quantities and at times when the manufacturers costs are the same. The ROCAF’s F-16s are unique. When they were produced, they included a combination of systems unlike any other F-16s that had been sold before or have been sold since. It is very difficult to compare their price to the prices of other F-16s. The same can be said of the P-3s, the Kidds and the subs. These items are much more unique than the F-16s that the ROCAF got. They will probably be built with a much higher level of customization than most other foreign military sales. Other than not having phased array radar, the Kidds are exactly what the ROCN needs: a stand alone “capital” ship that will act as the backbone of a group of three or four destroyers and frigates.
Where is your evidence that the package is overpriced? I’m assuming that you have none. Considering that keeping Taiwan out of PRC hands is vital to US interests, I imagine that the package is actually quite well priced. You are confusing the US with France. It was not in France’s national interests to boost the ROC’s ability to defend itself. They were only in it for the money. They didn’t just take a huge price for empty ships, but they also engaged in extremely corrupt practices. Unlike France, it is in the interests of the US for the ROC to defend itself. That the US is damn near the monopoly supplier for the ROC military may actually drive prices up, but you have to consider that an equally strong force for pushing prices down is the US DoD. No foreign military sales happen without their approval and they influence all the details of any major deal. The DoD is not going to let the ROC get ripped off badly because it is the DoD’s job to make sure that Taiwan doesn’t fall into Beijing’s hands.
In my opinion, the reason we are seeing so much opposition to this arms deal is because the Pan-Blue folks just don’t want to see the sale happen under a non-blue government. They don’t want CSB to be able to take any sort of strong position against the mainland. They know that beefing up the military will give him a bit of power to do so. In essence, they want to leave Taiwan vulnerable so that in 2008 they can scare the electorate into putting them back in office. They also don’t care to see the sale go through because there are no kickbacks in the deal for them; there are actually no kickbacks in this deal for anybody. Unlike the French or the Russians, US arms producers are strictly forbidden from doing any wheel greasing. Do they twist arms? Sure. Do US-foreign military sales get political? Of course, but I’d bet there are absolutely no kickbacks in this deal. Unlike the French, we actually have laws against corruption and we enforce them.
AC and any other whiners who are complaining about the price of this arms package, I challenge you to provide some real evidence to support your argument. Your constant, nickel and dime quips like “if you are our friend, you should give it to us cheaper” are based on no objective analysis or empirical evidence. You sound like a cheapskate shopper haggling in the night market. If anybody is trying to play chicken in this arms deal, it is probably the pan-blue assholes who think they can get this stuff for damn near free just because Taiwan is vital to US interests. Of course, these are the same assholes who took kickbacks from the French.
[quote=“Jive Turkey”]If anybody is trying to play chicken in this arms deal, it is probably the pan-blue assholes who think they can get this stuff for damn near free just because Taiwan is vital to US interests.[/quote]Of course they would try these tactics. They successfully fleeced the US for many years in this way with Soong Mei-ling’s help, so why quit while you’re ahead? If the US is overcharging a little it still falls a long way short of the lend-lease amounts that the KMT owe them… Of course I’d rather see that repaid out of the KMT coffers than my tax dollar 
Very well said, Jive Turkey.
Bump… 
I really hope that all the military persoms will drop theit party thin… 
No shit…
:bravo:
Good HW can help the military…
Hope every KMT military vote for more weapons to defend Taiwan :bravo: :bravo: