Attack from the Extreme Right on Judges

Politics International Politics
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[quote=“mofangongren”]I am pro-life and am both against abortion and capital punishment as well.

However, I realize that there are people who disagree for various reasons with when life begins. Thus, I don’t have a problem with the Democratic party being pro-choice. A party can be a “big tent” that includes people with different views … sorry to see that the Republican Party has evidently decided that everybody has to be perfectly lined-up on issues.[/quote]

You’re being hypocritical and you know it.

You want to chastise the entire Republican party because a few nutcases sya stupid things. You claim to be pro-life all the way, yet you are willing to grant the Democratic party a big pass on the issue of Abortion… and your attempt at explaining this contradiction is pathetic… oh, its a “big tent”, so some different notions about when its OK to kill a human being are acceptable.

Give me a break… :unamused:

Yeah, you have double standards, that’s for sure. Judge the GOP by one set of strict, black and white standards but give the Dems a big pass on the issue of when its OK to kill innocent babies.

Good one, mofangongren.

62

Tigerman,

You affiliate yourself with a party that seems deadset on running up record numbers of executions. Check out the numbers from the Bush brothers’ time as governors in Texas and Florida. I’m not calling you a “hypocrite” (as you are doing with me) even though you consider yourself “pro life” but find yourself in a party that only has the anti-abortion part down but not the anti-death-penalty part down. We each have a party that only gets part of “pro life” right.

63

[quote=“mofangongren”]Tigerman,

You affiliate yourself with a party that seems deadset on running up record numbers of executions. Check out the numbers from the Bush brothers’ time as governors in Texas and Florida. I’m not calling you a “hypocrite” (as you are doing with me) even though you consider yourself “pro life” but find yourself in a party that only has the anti-abortion part down but not the anti-death-penalty part down. We each have a party that only gets part of “pro life” right. [/quote]

There is a difference between you and me. I am not moaning like a banshee about the Dem’s contradictory stance while I applaud the GOP’s almost as contradictory a stance.

See? I’m not being hypocritical about the issue. You, however, are.

64

You could choose to say why you think that the GOP standpoint is “more consistent” with a right-to-lifer’s standpoint and we could argue all day on that kind of nice stuff.

65

I could, couldn’t I?

But look, I’m not the one acting all surprised that one political party holds positions that might be contradictory to certain other positions they hold… I’m not the one claiming to be a true pro-lifer while condemning one political party for the rants of a few extremist nuts while giving a big pass to another political party that supports the very thing you condemn the first party of doing.

That makes you, not me, a hypocrite.

And calling you a “hypocrite” is not a personal attack, so get used to it. This is a political discussion and when you hold contradictory positions and condemn one side for doing a certain act but say nothing about the other side’s similar behavior, that makes you a hypocrite.

If you don’t like having your hypocrisy pointed out to you, perhaps you can re-think your contradictory positions and or explain why you are not a hypocrite.

I’m listening (so to speak) :slight_smile:

66

I think we can all acknowledge that Coulter, Liddy and Turner are embraced by even “moderate” Republicans. All three have viewpoints that clearly are sympathetic to (Coulter), cheerleaderesque (Liddy) or outright hoping for (Turner) a bit of blood from government officials they don’t like. I think we can agree that Hale (the guy who tried to kill Judge Lefkow and is serving time for it) and Meywes (the guy who tried to offer a bounty on the life of Michael Schiavo and one of the judges handling the Terri Schiavo case) are a bit “extremist”.

The picture here is of a Republican party that tolerates a lot of bloody rhetoric while its extreme fringes include a lot of people willing to put words into action. What the heck is up with that?

There are no comparable folks embraced by moderate Democrats who are urging the deaths of anybody. The best y’all can come up with is Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky – both seem pretty non-violent to me, and I don’t even think Chomsky is even embraced by many people of any stripe. (Don’t think Chomsky would even affiliate himself with any party, either – my sense is he’s so cranky he doesn’t like any politicians.)

If you mapped out the positions on a very general level, it would appear that the GOP position is strongly in favor of the death penalty, strongly against abortion. Inconsistent, yes? I also see that the GOP position seems to just be purely partisan positioning – they’re “pro life” only when it suits them to put on a big show and have Bush fly across the country to take “swift action” the poor bugger wasn’t willing to take when he was getting memos on OBL nearly 4 years ago. Look at Bush’s record while governor of Texas re: living wills, removal of people from life support and as an executor of hundreds on death row, and you see how hypocritical the GOP “right to life” stand is.

If you mapped out the Democrats’ position, it would be strongly against the death penalty. Regarding abortion, Dems are anti-abortion but pro-choice and pro-sex-ed. I think we can all agree that nobody is actually “pro abortion” in the sense that probably nobody is “pro colostomy”, etc. Nobody ever wants to have one, and nobody on either side of the abortion debate seriously hopes there will be “more” of them. If we want to reduce unwanted pregnancies and, thus, reduce abortions we’re going to have to think how to deal with the overall situation. I think the Democrats are on the right path on this, and I’m not hypocritical to put my bet down on the path that I think is going to lead to fewer abortions. Compared to the Republican pro-death/pro-life position, the Dems are the ones with the moral clarity.

Sure abstinence is a great way to avoid unwanted pregnancies, but kids have always been kids, so I think contraception and sex-ed (including abstinence training) are an important part of improving things.

67

I guess its the same sort of hypocrisy that enables you to call yourself a real pro-lifer yet not worry about the actual position of the mainstream Democratic party support for the killing of babies.

I mean, if the “bloody rhetoric” of a few extremest nutters who consider themselves Republican so disturbs you, I just cannot understand how the advocacy and support for the right to kill innocent babies by the mainstream Democratic party and Democrats is of apparently no concern at all to you.

Seems very hypocritical, IMO.

You can gnash your teeth and wring your hands all you want while screaming bloody murder about the rhetoric of a few nutters on the extreme right, but you, as a self-proclaimed real pro-lifer, have no criticism for the Democratic party which sanctions and even strenuously advocates the real bloodbath that happens every day.

Seems very hypocritical to me. :smiley:

68

Please provide links to where the DNC has expressed support for the killing of babies. It would appear that you’re not presenting facts here.

You ought to read Andrew Sullivan’s interesting piece on Hillary Clinton to get a better idea of how the Democrats are changing the debate in more productive ways, aiming to reduce abortions while handle the problem more comprehensively:

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1032342,00.html has a version you have to pay to see, so please also check out http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/14715.htm

Now, please kindly show me where “mainstream Democratic party” members want to kill more babies. Links with real quotations would be welcome. I’ll be waiting for your links or, perhaps, a retraction of your statement.

69

That’s not really necessary, is it?

I mean, it isn’t the GOP fighting to keep abortion legal, is it?

And I know you are trying to play with the words used… but, if you want to argue that “abortion” does not equal “killing babies”… then what exactly is wrong with it? If abortion is not killing babies, then why are the Dems now in such a tizzy about whether or not they should reframe the debate to make it more palitable to the real pro-life democrats?

There is a thread now about Republican doublespeak… but the Dems are just as good, if not better than the GOP, at this game. Its not that the Dems favor “killing babies”, right? They simply favor a woman’s right to make the “choice” of whether or not to kil he baby.

:unamused:

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That’s not really necessary, is it?[/quote]

Yes, it is. You make the accusation, you go provide the links. You say that mainstream Dems support murdering babies, then you go ahead and back it up. If you have even a shred of honor on this point, you will do so or else acknowledge that Democrats are in favor of reducing abortions through a variety of means.

While you’re at it, please show me how consistent it is to be pro-life and supporting a party that is so pro-capital punishment. If you want, I can locate for you statistics on how the Bush brothers have fared with regards to executions in states where they have served as governor.

71

I’ve already explained my position. The DNC supports “choice”… that is, the DNC supports the right of a woman to choose whether to let her baby live or whether to kill it.

That the DNC is also in favor of reducing abortions does not absolve it from its continuing support of the right for those women who chose to kill their babies to do so.

["quote=“mofangongren”]While you’re at it, please show me how consistent it is to be pro-life and supporting a party that is so pro-capital punishment. [/quote]

I’ve never claimed that I support each and every position of the Republican party. Unlike you, I do not see things in terms of black and white. I see shades of gray.

Thus, I have never argued that the DNC is totally bad while arguing that the GOP is perfectly good.

["quote=“mofangongren”]If you want, I can locate for you statistics on how the Bush brothers have fared with regards to executions in states where they have served as governor.[/quote]

I’m well aware of those stats.

But, then again, I am not the one screaming bloody murder at only one political party while ignoring the inconsistency of the other.

This shouldn’t be so difficult for you to understand. :s

72

Tigerman,

Still no support for your position or links showing that mainstream Democrats support killing babies. Please show me a provision of any law in the United States (federal or state) where it says you can kill a baby. Go ahead. Because if the law considered fetuses to be “babies” the answer would be right there. There is disagreement among Americans about when life begins. Here’s a bit of “pro-choice” for you – we pro-life Americans can get rooted into a theoretical argument that, scientifically, we are not going to resolve anytime soon. Or we can choose to do whatever we can to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and, thus, to reduce the number of abortions.

Currently abortion is not “murder” under the law, unlike the sorts of things that the conservative mouthpieces are calling for … and apparently getting sometimes. Now, if you really have any doubts about whether or not it is illegal to shoot federal officers in the face (Liddy says it’s the best way), assasinate federal judges (Turner called for it, Hale acted on it) or blow up federal or even NY Times buildings (Coulter thinks there’s nothing wrong with these), I bet it wouldn’t take long for pretty much anybody here to find some law provisions for you. I bet it’s also against the law for that Mewyes guy to offer to pay rewards to people to kill Michael Schiavo or the judge handling that case.

Now, while there might be grey issues throughout the abortion situation, there are a couple of things that are pretty clear: 1) abortion is currently legal whatever we might think about that; and 2) the things advocated by Coulter, Libby and Turner are very clearly illegal.

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[quote=“mofangongren”]Tigerman,

Still no support for your position or links showing that mainstream Democrats support killing babies.[/quote]

The medical definition of “abortion”:

[url=http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?abortion]abortion

  1. The premature expulsion from the uterus of the products of conception of the embryo or of a nonviable foetus.

In man, the developing organism is an embryo from about two weeks after fertilization to the end of seventh or eighth week.[/url]

Abortion is the premature expulsion of the embryo or of a non-viable foetus.

The Democratic Party supports the right of “abortion on demand”, even of a viable foetus.

Now, looking again at the definition of “abortion”, what the Democratic Party actually supports is, well… let’s see. The Democratic Party actually supports the right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy, even if her foetus is viable and able to live outside of her womb. The medical definition of “abortion” doesn’t apply to that… does it?

So, it looks like the Democratic Party does actually support the killing of babies. Of course, since by democratic Party efforts, the killing of babies while they are still in the womb (when it is the mother’s choice to do so) is not legally defined as “murder”.

But wait… there are laws in most states that define the killing of a foetus (I’m not certain whether these laws even make a distinction between viable and non-viable) when it is done by some third person not authorized by or with the consent of the mother, as “murder”.

Wow wow! Talk about an inconsistency!

Now, maybe you see no contradiction or inconsistency in these two ideas:

  1. When a mother decides to kill her own viable foetus, doing so is not “murder”.

  2. When a third party, not authorized by the mother, kills a viable foetus, the killing is a “murder”.

Seems like a contradiction, at least to me it does.

74

Please provide a link where the Democratic party says that they support the killing of babies.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=baby

Main Entry: [b]ba

75

Why do you consistently resort to employing strawman arguments?

I never stated that Democrats “like” to kill babies.

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[quote=“mofangongren”]

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=baby

Main Entry: [b]ba

77

Please make up your mind on this matter. You started this thread and you titled it :

Attack from the Extreme Right on Judges

Now, are you alleging that it is the extreme right or the mainstream right that urges the deaths of judges, etc…?

Your position seems to be in constant flux.

78

Please make up your mind on this matter. You started this thread and you titled it :

Attack from the Extreme Right on Judges

Now, are you alleging that it is the extreme right or the mainstream right that urges the deaths of judges, etc…?

Your position seems to be in constant flux.[/quote]

As I’ve made it quite clear previously, the extreme ones are the folks who are acting on it. However, the evidence thus far presented about Coulter, Liddy and Turner shows that the extremists may be an extension of what is considered “mainstream” right.

Simply put, the extremists are doing what the mainstream right only talk about.

Perhaps it might be helpful for you go to back and re-read some of this thread. Here’s something I wrote as recently as yesterday that perhaps helps clear things up:

[quote]I think we can all acknowledge that Coulter, Liddy and Turner are embraced by even “moderate” Republicans. All three have viewpoints that clearly are sympathetic to (Coulter), cheerleaderesque (Liddy) or outright hoping for (Turner) a bit of blood from government officials they don’t like. I think we can agree that Hale (the guy who tried to kill Judge Lefkow and is serving time for it) and Meywes (the guy who tried to offer a bounty on the life of Michael Schiavo and one of the judges handling the Terri Schiavo case) are a bit “extremist”.

The picture here is of a Republican party that tolerates a lot of bloody rhetoric while its extreme fringes include a lot of people willing to put words into action. What the heck is up with that? [/quote]

79

This just in – Sen. Cornyn (R-Texas) apparently feels that the killing of judges is just a way for the citizens to hold judges “accountable.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26236-2005Apr4.html

Add this in with DeLay’s comments from last week, and it’s looking more and more like the GOP mainstream is cheering the judge-killers on. Perhaps they’ve been tuning into Hal Turner a bit too much lately.

80

[quote=“mofangongren”]
Perhaps it might be helpful for you go to back and re-read some of this thread. Here’s something I wrote as recently as yesterday that perhaps helps clear things up:

I think part of the disconnect comes from this last quote, MFGR. As far as I can tell you are the only person in the discussion who thinks that this assertion is even remotely accurate. :idunno: